18 replies to this topic

[Sakul]

Is it possible to create a completly new standalone game (based on/as big as icewind Dale 2, also same quality) with new story, quests, and new area's (No re-used area's),NPCs & Items, with the tools presented here on this website?

How much time and how many persons should be involved in a project like this, if we are to say that the product should be an A-Title?

[Yovaneth]

It has been tried with the various versions of the Infinity Engine a number of times and has come to nothing each time. If you consider that Bioware took (I think) two years to produce the original game and that each person in that team was working on it full time, how long would it take an amateur team to produce something of the same size and quality when each of those team members has to work/study as well? It took me five years to create the Fishing for Trouble mod and that has - at the most - an additional four hours gameplay in it. In addition, the IWD2 version of the Infinity Engine does not mod well, which is why there are so few mods built for it.

-Y-

Edited by Yovaneth, 04 December 2011 - 05:19 AM.

[Sakul]

But we sure have more tools to make it easier to create content then before right?

Yeah i think it took 2 years to produce that game, but it was almost 10 years ago, and the people who make mods are being better and better at it.

I remember Tales from the dark side of the sword coast from TeamBG aswell, i dont remember how long it took for them to remake the areas, if i remember correctly they remade the whole Baldurs Gate game?
You worked alone on the fishing for trouble mod, or where you a few persons on it? 4 Hours content is quite alot, i havent tryed it yet, still trying to get trough Watcher's Keep on my new character in the original version (im replaying the whole series again .)

Hm the Icewind dale 2 engine is the hardest to mod then, or is it impossible to work with?

How many people do you think its required to create a game half as big as Icewind dale 2 in a decent time frame?

Also a little Off-topic:
I dont understand why obsidian or atari doesnt make a new infinity engine game with the forgotten realms setting instead of the facebook game,the gameplay is entertaining, but its the story that makes these games, aswell as progression with the characters, and the infinity engine games are still being played by people all across the world.

Im sure that if Obsidian where to create a new game using the old 2d engine people would buy it
I remember that a few pc magazines critisized Black isle and said that Icewind dales 2's 2d engine was outdated but it did still sell well if i remember right? (not as good as baldurs gate i think but still decent)

/Edit: It took a year for Black Isle to develop Icewind Dale 2, not sure how many people they had working on it.

Edited by Sakul, 04 December 2011 - 08:00 AM.

[Almateria]

How many people do you think its required to create a game half as big as Icewind dale 2 in a decent time frame?

Like, a hundred? The credits say so. But that only applies to 2D isometric games with ridiculously detailed maps. Seriously graphics like those take a major part of time

new infinity engine game

That would be like making a new game on Quake 2 engine! Ugly as sin, repulsive, unplayable and a terrible marketing decision. (I think Q2 can use resolutions bigger than 800x600, though. Unlike IE!)

Im sure that if Obsidian where to create a new game using the old 2d engine people would buy it

That's a terrible way of thinking, showing no knowledge of the market and wishful thinking at the same time!

[Jarno Mikkola]

That would be like making a new game on Quake 2 engine! Ugly as sin, repulsive, unplayable and a terrible marketing decision. (I think Q2 can use resolutions bigger than 800x600, though. Unlike IE!)

You might want to recheck that again, the IE can use any resolution your video card and monitor can support, you just need the Widescreen mod.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 04 December 2011 - 01:31 PM.

[Almateria]

I'm talking native.

[Sakul]

How many people do you think its required to create a game half as big as Icewind dale 2 in a decent time frame?

Like, a hundred? The credits say so. But that only applies to 2D isometric games with ridiculously detailed maps. Seriously graphics like those take a major part of time

new infinity engine game

That would be like making a new game on Quake 2 engine! Ugly as sin, repulsive, unplayable and a terrible marketing decision. (I think Q2 can use resolutions bigger than 800x600, though. Unlike IE!)

Im sure that if Obsidian where to create a new game using the old 2d engine people would buy it

That's a terrible way of thinking, showing no knowledge of the market and wishful thinking at the same time!

well, thanks for your reply i guess? im not sure how Quake 2 and Baldurs Gate are related? Baldur's Gate is a story driven game with 2D experience Quake is a shoot em up..

oh 100 people then, thanks.

and for: "That's a terrible way of thinking, showing no knowledge of the market and wishful thinking at the same time!"
No need to be rude, i havent done anything towards you. and to answer that Atari recently re-released the Series in a collection....
ah nevermind, im sure youre right. Facebook games like neverwinter are probably better, and sells better too.

Edit:I also read in a PC magazine that Obsidian is making a 2D southpark RPG Game, how can this be any diffrent than making a new story driven 2D RPG game set in Forgotten realms?

Edited by Sakul, 04 December 2011 - 04:41 PM.

[Kaeloree]

Jeez guys, come on, let's be friendly please!

Sakul: A project like you're suggesting is unfortunately not really feasable. There's also not a huge market for 2D Isometric games -- if there was, the Triple A studios would be making them. There are still some out there being made, such as Spiderweb Software's games, so if you're interested you could check them out?

So, it is technically possible, but unfortunately it's a project of such huge scope that it's just not possible for a small group to do without any professional experience.

[Sakul]

Jeez guys, come on, let's be friendly please!

Sakul: A project like you're suggesting is unfortunately not really feasable. There's also not a huge market for 2D Isometric games -- if there was, the Triple A studios would be making them. There are still some out there being made, such as Spiderweb Software's games, so if you're interested you could check them out?

So, it is technically possible, but unfortunately it's a project of such huge scope that it's just not possible for a small group to do without any professional experience.

Thanks alot for the info , Ill check them out.

[Almateria]

well, thanks for your reply i guess? im not sure how Quake 2 and Baldurs Gate are related? Baldur's Gate is a story driven game with 2D experience Quake is a shoot em up..

They're both ancient, and therefore use a a riculously outdated engine, which is completely unplayable in 2011 without use of external software.

and to answer that Atari recently re-released the Series in a collection....

Re-releasing is completely different from actually producing! Especially when it's a digital release.

Edit:I also read in a PC magazine that Obsidian is making a 2D southpark RPG Game, how can this be any diffrent than making a new story driven 2D RPG game set in Forgotten realms?

We don't even know what kind of 2D is used, so I can't really comment on that! Also, the animation is way simpler, since it's SP, and you can actually make a SP game opposed to a FR game, because everybody know who holds the rights to SP.

There are still some out there being made, such as Spiderweb Software's games, so if you're interested you could check them out?

Spiderweb Software is super weird, it's one guy chucking out identical games for absurd prices, and he actually makes a living from that!

[Sasha Al'Therin]

They're both ancient, and therefore use a a riculously outdated engine, which is completely unplayable in 2011 without use of external software.

if by external software you mean some sort of OS like Windows then yeah Baldur's Gate can't be played without that. No other software needed, so I don't know what you are trying to say here. Even installing to the default location of C:\Program Files\Black Isle\Baldur's Gate\ allows for a completely playable game, just not a moddable game.

How about clarifying what you mean to the casual reader please?

[Sakul]

Lets just leave it as it is, some people think the engine is outdated, others love the engine, thats why modding communitys as this and gibberling 3 exists, as for the South Park game im sure it will fit you just fine Almateria but id love to see another forgotten realms game instead thats story driven and made by a good company like obsidian, doesnt matter if it uses the Infinity engine or a new 3D engine.

[cmorgan]

Like the BG2 community, there are plenty of folks still playing and enjoying Jagged Alliance 2, and the modding community has responded by rebuilding several total conversions and such. But they have a huge advantage, (I think it was the bigg who let me know this...) in that they have the source code. Everything here, every tool, every manipulation, every mod, every total conversion; each one has been painstakingly carved out of reverse-engineering. ToBEX is very cool; I don't know how many hours went into it, but it had to be a zillion. Either way, the cost in time and energy is prohibitive, if the team wants to make a profit. Brain-dead eye-candy sells. Otherwise SSI would still have hex-based counters on an abstract tactical map. And... mods exist because they don't make money. If they were to charge, then the actual owners of the game rights would need to give approval and take their cut.

From a coding standpoint, building a new i.e. game via teams of modders is not practical. It can be done; Classic Adventures is a good example. But... the IWD engine is much harder to deal with. Like BG, there are things that are only possible to do by tricking the engine into doing something that is the equivalent of a jury-rigged Incredible Machine. Kulyok had to play code-games to get IWD NPC to do something as simple as an interjection. So on IWD/IWD2, there have been efforts to recreate the game in the BG2 variant of the engine, because while it is a crazy (and flaky) engine, it is still the most-able-to-be-modded variant. (Hey - to be fair, none of the i.e. games were built with modding in mind. We complain about all sorts of problems with the engine, but the reality is that we are making it jump through hoops it was never, ever designed for). Making a mod that is the equivalent of a new game? BG1NPC is just an add-on, but it puts at least a game's worth of new content into play. It has taken years, with hundreds of folks involved.

There seem to be attempts in each new engine NWN, DA, etc.) to recreate the old content in new formats. They might be a good place to volunteer, if you are interested. A completely new game... well, it would be cool. But for some reason (possibly licensing? I don't know) while The Elder Scrolls seems able to revisit Tamriel (regularly, starting in 1994) and still make a profit, no one seems willing to spend the cash and make a new Forgotten Realms game. Given the number of books out there, the number of source materials, the massive history, one would think that it would be easy to find inspiration. But EA games for X-Box and PS3 (oh, and a back-port to the few folks still playing on their computers) seems to be the way to make cash, so that is where the game companies go.

Edited by cmorgan, 05 December 2011 - 08:42 AM.

[Almateria]

They're both ancient, and therefore use a a riculously outdated engine, which is completely unplayable in 2011 without use of external software.

if by external software you mean some sort of OS like Windows then yeah Baldur's Gate can't be played without that. No other software needed, so I don't know what you are trying to say here. Even installing to the default location of C:\Program Files\Black Isle\Baldur's Gate\ allows for a completely playable game, just not a moddable game.

How about clarifying what you mean to the casual reader please?

I'm talking about the visual appeal! Without editing the main .exe, the both can make your eyes bleed.

[Sakul]

Hey, thanks for the reply Cmorgan.
BG2 Engine is the easiest to mod then, they had alot of 2D models in Icewind dale 2 that werent in BG2, is there some way to move those Models to Baldurs Gate 2 ToB?

I read the list of changes in ToBEx and the Arena Deathmatch caught my eye, was this supposed to be originally shipped with the game?
Is there some way to get this Multiplayer Mode? (I dont know so much about modding, the only thing ive done is convert some NPC Soundset's using TeamBG's Tools, a creature at one time and a belt which changed the colors of my character, so installing ToBex would probably ruin my game)

[Jarno Mikkola]

I'm talking about the visual appeal! Without editing the main .exe, the both can make your eyes bleed.

Well, the graphical size is a feature of the game, not the actual engine... there's a difference, especially in 2D and 3D games ! The same goes with the starting XP the characters start, that value is set in the bgmain.exe too... Do you really thing the game makers didn't intent for the game to continue from the BG1 minimum and so they set the XP to what the engine came with .... ?

Hey - to be fair, none of the i.e. games were built with modding in mind.

So let me ask this, why is there an "override" folder in the games then ?
If the engine was not made to support modifying the games themselves, they would simply not be doable by putting the modified files to a priority- folder. There's a script compiler attached to the game... the game supports the use of extra pictures from a folder, there's a sndlist.txt in the Sounds folder that tells what sound are used in the normal responses ... there's a few other features that have become invisible you after you have stared where the moding community has taken the games to in the many years it has had the time to(due to the success of the original games).

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 06 December 2011 - 01:53 AM.

[Sakul]

i dont really know what a source code is, i read on the NWN2 Community site on bioware about one of their forum moderators was going to suggest that they would release it for that game, but would it help much or just a little to make new modifications if the community had it?

[Jarno Mikkola]

i dont really know what a source code is, i read on the NWN2 Community site on bioware about one of their forum moderators was going to suggest that they would release it for that game, but would it help much or just a little to make new modifications if the community had it?

Well, with the source code and proper tools you can recompile the game... meaning that you get the exact game when you compile it. And you can make the game do anything you like if you have the programming skills for it... that's a lot of difference to use Infinity Engine modifiers as we need to research what each files does by reverse engineering it.

For example the game interface.... If you have the source code, and you want to add a new quick spell slot, you just go to the right spot, copy paste and do a little number editing in the source code and compile the new interface files and vola, you can have 1 or hundred... without it... you just can't.

[Sakul]

Heya, thanks for the reply and explanation Jarno.

Hmm okey, have you asked bioware about releasing the code? its a very old game and if they release the NWN 2 Source code they maybe can release the code for these games aswell, since theyre older?

Also i tryed out daggerdale and found it quite okey, even with all the bugs, is this something SHS will consider in the future to add a section for? I dont know how the unreal engine works with maps etc, but i watched http://www.youtube.c...=1&feature=plcp The outdoor Area at 0.56 where it says "Cancelled Project" was quite amazing, unfourtenetly its probably pictures from the second part of the game thats listed as Cancelled.

Edited by Sakul, 23 December 2011 - 11:05 AM.