32 replies to this topic

[TDouglas]

Here's a strange one for ya. I haven't been able to find an answer through the AD&D books I have left (many lost and/or stolen through the years).

Is Ao to be considered the supreme ruler of ALL the gods, or just the human ones? The Elves have the Seldarine, for example, but they don't seem to be under him (at least as far as the Elves are concerned).

I'm really most interested in it from the perspective of the humanoid races. Would the Orc gods fall under him, or do the monstrous races have their own divine order?

I'm guessing this is pretty much a matter of opinion, but I'd love to hear what the group thinks about the issue

[Tempest]

Ao isn't so much the supreme ruler of all the gods as he's on another level entirely. Not many mortals are even aware of Ao, he does not respond to any prayers directed to him, and he only steps in when people or gods start threatening to break existence - Cyric is completely correct that Ao's interest in the Bhaalspawn saga in ToB is very odd. Ao exists above all gods, regardless of pantheon, but only the human gods have repeatedly forced him to intervene.

[jube]

AO is a remnant of the times before the gods came into being, and before the modern races evolved, obviously the gods consider themselves eternal and like to propagate that line to their worshipers. Thus as a whole the gods have tried to destroy any hint of those times and that is why the origin and nature of The AO is such a mystery ( as with all things some of this lore has survived held at the moment by Vecna the god of secrets ) . They simply pretend The AO does not exist, and when it intervenes they pretend it had not

[TDouglas]

Hmmm, sounds semi-Lovecraftean Could make for some interesting mixing (i.e. having Yog Sotthoth in on the picture at a much higher level than Ao, for instance).

Thanks for the input folks, I'll have to think about it all

[Tempest]

Depends on the writer. With some writers, Ao is indeed vaguely Lovecraftian. In others, he's the distant but firm boss of the gods whose motto is "Don't make me come down there." Vecna doesn't exist in the Realms, after all (at least not in 2/3/3.5E), and when he intervenes, it's because the gods are threatening to break reality.

[Miloch]

Hmmm, sounds semi-Lovecraftean Could make for some interesting mixing (i.e. having Yog Sotthoth in on the picture at a much higher level than Ao, for instance).

There are in fact some "Elder Ones" even Ao is subordinate to, so it is indeed Lovecraftean. According to Faiths & Avatars, he is the only over-power in Realmspace (The Toril solar system) - which perhaps means there are others in other systems. His superior is an unknown "luminous being" he apparently addresses as "Master" (I'm thinking either a Sith Lord, a Time Lord or Cthulhu ).

I'm not sure whether Vecna is subordinate to him, since he came to power in a different sphere (Greyhawk) but Lolth is (according to this) at least as concerns her followers on Toril.

[Tempest]

His superior is an unknown "luminous being" he apparently addresses as "Master" (I'm thinking either a Sith Lord, a Time Lord or Cthulhu ).

The quasi-canonical answer is that the luminous being is the Dungeon Master.

Anyhow, the real Lovecraftian stuff is to be found in the Far Realm. If you extrapolate a bit from Planescape, the deal with Ao and the gods is that reality is infinite, and there is always something or someone stronger. Infinite layers of beings in infinite layers and scopes of existence.

[jube]

Well the reason i mention vecna is because his story seems to have quite successfully "broken " reality twice, ie the rule changes from 2 to 3.x to 4 and since the rules are the only constant in the D+D universe, the only thing beyond the will of the DM, ( well in a good game anyway ) then his story is the place to find the actual truth of the gods,universe etc etc. And this also goes against the infinite layers concept, if there is a layer above the vecna story why do the uber powers above him not change the rules ? Answer; power comes to a stop, and there is a top of the hill. Simply saying he does/did not exist in the realms is like saying the ethereal plane does not extend to the sword coast, just cos you cant see or feel his power does not mean one is not affected by it. Anyway planular travel is just to easy, any access to the ethereal plane gives a traveler immediate access to any point in the multiverse, and any time in the universe, its just a matter of navigation and balls, likewise with the astral plane and the outer planes. So you can be damn sure vecna is aware of forgotten realms, greyhawk and a whole host of other places! ( I once had a very powerful character brought up in Greyhawk who spent years plotting the death of Elminster just cos he was a challenge )
As` for the pre-gods storyline not sure if its craftien, probably, but from the various hints by many different writers would say its a constant theme and thus campaign outline. But NOT Cthulhu, the whole pantheon was dealt with in detail in deities an demigods 1, the original edition ( before christian cultists had the whole section banned) and they were just not that powerful , MAYBE the big C himself who uniquely could be in many different places at once, without Avitars, and thus break the bounds of spacetime, but in the outer planes where time is under the control of the gods of that plane, then he would be calamari on toast,def not in AO's league and beyond AO, not a chance.
But on the right track, i am thinking big C is akin to a tadpole while what we are talking about with the old ones is the daddy bullfrog. Ao in my game/mod has its history exposed but thats my take on the story.

[Tempest]

Well the reason i mention vecna is because his story seems to have quite successfully "broken " reality twice, ie the rule changes from 2 to 3.x to 4 and since the rules are the only constant in the D+D universe, the only thing beyond the will of the DM, ( well in a good game anyway ) then his story is the place to find the actual truth of the gods,universe etc etc.

Only in Greyhawk. Not in any other setting.

And this also goes against the infinite layers concept, if there is a layer above the vecna story why do the uber powers above him not change the rules ? Answer; power comes to a stop, and there is a top of the hill.[/quote[

Perhaps because they approve of Vecna's quest, or regard him as utterly inconsequential? Baldur's Gate 2: ToB is the one and only time Ao is ever indicated as even being aware of mortals as such. Any beings above him would likely regard the affairs of gods as equally trivial.

pquote]Simply saying he does/did not exist in the realms is like saying the ethereal plane does not extend to the sword coast, just cos you cant see or feel his power does not mean one is not affected by it. Anyway planular travel is just to easy, any access to the ethereal plane gives a traveler immediate access to any point in the multiverse, and any time in the universe, its just a matter of navigation and balls, likewise with the astral plane and the outer planes.

Doesn't work that way, my friend. Different settings are exactly that: different settings. There are many planes that exist in the Realms cosmology that do not exist in the standard cosmology, and if you bring in Eberron as another setting still, there is no ethereal plane in that setting. Or an astral plane. Or a plane of shadow. Or the Nine Hells. Or the Abyss. Or Mount Celestia. Or Elysium. You get the picture. Different settings.

So you can be damn sure vecna is aware of forgotten realms, greyhawk and a whole host of other places! ( I once had a very powerful character brought up in Greyhawk who spent years plotting the death of Elminster just cos he was a challenge )

Then that is homebrew material between you and your DM/players. Not canon.

As` for the pre-gods storyline not sure if its craftien, probably, but from the various hints by many different writers would say its a constant theme and thus campaign outline. But NOT Cthulhu, the whole pantheon was dealt with in detail in deities an demigods 1, the original edition ( before christian cultists had the whole section banned) and they were just not that powerful , MAYBE the big C himself who uniquely could be in many different places at once, without Avitars, and thus break the bounds of spacetime, but in the outer planes where time is under the control of the gods of that plane, then he would be calamari on toast,def not in AO's league and beyond AO, not a chance.

Different editions, different settings. Cthulu has nothing to do with any modern setting beyond being indicative of the kind of stuff that calls the Far Realm and Xoriat home.

But on the right track, i am thinking big C is akin to a tadpole while what we are talking about with the old ones is the daddy bullfrog. Ao in my game/mod has its history exposed but thats my take on the story.

And that is your take. It is not canon. I have simply been stating what is currently known, and specifically stated that the infinite layers of reality thing is pure speculation based on applying the logic and philosophy of Planescape to its logical extent on the Realms.

[Miloch]

But NOT Cthulhu, the whole pantheon was dealt with in detail in deities an demigods 1, the original edition ( before christian cultists had the whole section banned)

Heh, was that the reason? I thought it was a copyright issue (and perhaps later, "gods forbid" the toy company that bought out TSR would possibly "borrow" anything from other authors/myths, nevermind the fact they subsumed pretty much all of Tolkien, Vance, a lot of Norse/Finnish myth in the form of Tyr, Mielikki, etc., etc.). I still have the edition that has the Cthulhu section, though it conspicuously does *not* have the sections in an only slightly older version of Deities that had Moorcock (as in Elric the Albino) and Leiber (as in Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser) sections of deities, to the great loss of the tome. And that's the only difference between the edition I have and the "banned" earlier edition - probably copyright issues, though it would be stupid if they just published all this stuff that was in some living author's books otherwise unaffiliated to the game... er, wouldn't it?

There are many planes that exist in the Realms cosmology that do not exist in the standard cosmology

Are there? I was under at least the vague impression the plains were the same in FR vis-a-vis standard 2e. There is the naming convention, which is (probably) indeed a reaction to fundamentalists objecting to "Hell" etc., so they renamed it Baator instead (also see previous point about stealing other authors', or in this case, mythical/"byblical" ideas under the guise of originality).

Canon or quasi-canon aside, infinity is a pretty stupid concept. Nothing measurable goes on forever or even suggests it may. Theoretically, you could travel the universe forever in a supraluminal ship, but you'd eventually end up at your starting point, the same way a ship on earth could travel it (theoretically) forever and end up at the same point eventually. That doesn't make the earth infinite any more than it makes the universe infinite. But even in a multiverse that ignores physics, it's absurd how you have some planes (like the Abyss) with a finite number of levels (like 666) and some of those are "infinite". So you have an "infinite" expanse contained within a finite expanse? Riddle me that, Batman. And I'm sure if some obtuse eccentric wants to go all quantum or whatever, the poor sod could make a case for it, but not a halfway convincing one even in an utterly phantasmagoric setting (such as the one we're talking about).

[Tempest]

Are there? I was under at least the vague impression the plains were the same in FR vis-a-vis standard 2e. There is the naming convention, which is (probably) indeed a reaction to fundamentalists objecting to "Hell" etc., so they renamed it Baator instead (also see previous point about stealing other authors', or in this case, mythical/"byblical" ideas under the guise of originality).

Try the Barrens of Doom and Despair, for one - Bhaal's home plane (yes, you heard me - NOT the Abyss).

Canon or quasi-canon aside, infinity is a pretty stupid concept. Nothing measurable goes on forever or even suggests it may. Theoretically, you could travel the universe forever in a supraluminal ship, but you'd eventually end up at your starting point, the same way a ship on earth could travel it (theoretically) forever and end up at the same point eventually. That doesn't make the earth infinite any more than it makes the universe infinite. But even in a multiverse that ignores physics, it's absurd how you have some planes (like the Abyss) with a finite number of levels (like 666) and some of those are "infinite". So you have an "infinite" expanse contained within a finite expanse? Riddle me that, Batman. And I'm sure if some obtuse eccentric wants to go all quantum or whatever, the poor sod could make a case for it, but not a halfway convincing one even in an utterly phantasmagoric setting (such as the one we're talking about).

You're talking about Planescape. Finite infinity is absolutely part of how it works. Here's a fundamental point of Planescape: the Planes are infinite. Every plane is infinitely large, but is contained within finite boundaries, and every plane has layers - each layer is itself infinite, yet also only a part of the plane. The Great Staircase is infinite. The number of planes is infinite. The number of worlds on the Prime Material Plane and near-identical Material Planes is infinite. The Abyss has an infinite number of layers. The mountain in the middle of the Outlands is of infinite height, yet Sigil circles its peak. Does it make logical or scientific sense? Nope. Is it how it works regardless? You betcha. There is always something more in Planescape. Always something stronger. You can rant and rave that it's stupid and doesn't make sense, but Planescape is the kind of setting that laughs at such silly concepts as fact, reason, and rationality. There are infinite possibilities in the Planes, yet you will find every last one if you know where to look. If your head hurts trying to wrap your head around how it all works, you're thinking too hard. Just roll with it.

Edited by Tempest, 16 September 2011 - 07:26 PM.

[jube]

"You're talking about Planescape. Finite infinity is absolutely part of how it works. Here's a fundamental point of Planescape: the Planes are infinite. Every plane is infinitely large, but is contained within finite boundaries, and every plane has layers - each layer is itself infinite, yet also only a part of the plane. The Great Staircase is infinite. The number of planes is infinite. The number of worlds on the Prime Material Plane and near-identical Material Planes is infinite. The Abyss has an infinite number of layers. The mountain in the middle of the Outlands is of infinite height, yet Sigil circles its peak. "

Yep totally true, and accurate, but not an argument for infinite layers of power ( in my humble opinion ), infinity is not that a hard concept to integrate into a finite universe, mathematically it is simply 1/0 and when you meet it in an equation ( obvious case being infinite curvature in a singularity ) it means your equations are wrong. Philosophically the equivalent is that when we say infinite we mean " i do not understand how this works within my understanding of the universe, but it does work somehow, thus my understanding is incorrect " which is the situation with the planes. But that also implies that there are correct equations and a correct understanding, i would argue in light of the previous, that the infinite layers of power are not infinite at all, its just that they are incomprehensible to players, thus also leaving opportunities for DMs to slowly fill in those missing equations and make the incomprehensible into nice linear functions . Hopefully when quantum and enistinien maths are successfully integrated we can do the same with singularities.

So is there a ethereal plane in the realms ? And can a character/god etc travel between greyhawk and Forgotten realms? Cos if the cannon says no ive got a shed load of rewiring to do on my mod. I can certainly understand that campaign settings can be very seperate but if they share the same or similar rule set arnt they by definition linked? a potion of etherealness is a potion of etherealness, dont they both send the player to the same plane ?

I think in all the literature have read the ethereal plane connects to all points in the universe simultaneously, exactly the same as dimension 11 in current M theory, so is it an argument that if there is no mention to an ethereal plane in a campaign setting its the same as saying " there is a ethereal plane but we have no possible way of accessing or detecting it , thus to all intense and purposes it does not exist " again the exact same situation we have with dimension 11

[Tempest]

Yep totally true, and accurate, but not an argument for infinite layers of power ( in my humble opinion ), infinity is not that a hard concept to integrate into a finite universe, mathematically it is simply 1/0 and when you meet it in an equation ( obvious case being infinite curvature in a singularity ) it means your equations are wrong. Philosophically the equivalent is that when we say infinite we mean " i do not understand how this works within my understanding of the universe, but it does work somehow, thus my understanding is incorrect " which is the situation with the planes. But that also implies that there are correct equations and a correct understanding, i would argue in light of the previous, that the infinite layers of power are not infinite at all, its just that they are incomprehensible to players, thus also leaving opportunities for DMs to slowly fill in those missing equations and make the incomprehensible into nice linear functions . Hopefully when quantum and enistinien maths are successfully integrated we can do the same with singularities.

Once again, I remind you that when I proposed that there are infinite layers of beings and existence, I was simply taking the Planescape concepts to their logical conclusion in speculation. I believe the Planescape conclusion absolutely would be "infinite heights and depths of reality, infinite tiers of power," and that there would be beings to whom Ao would be roughly on par with bacteria. Happily, none of this is relevant to the players

So is there a ethereal plane in the realms ? And can a character/god etc travel between greyhawk and Forgotten realms? Cos if the cannon says no ive got a shed load of rewiring to do on my mod. I can certainly understand that campaign settings can be very seperate but if they share the same or similar rule set arnt they by definition linked? a potion of etherealness is a potion of etherealness, dont they both send the player to the same plane ?

There is an Ethereal Plane in the Realms, but it is not linked to Greyhawk's. By canon, Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms are not linked and you cannot travel between them. I certainly have heard of players and DMs deciding that you can travel between them through the planes, but those are very much non-canon. The Realms and Greyhawk both have an ethereal plane, but not the same ethereal plane and there is zero connection between them.

I think in all the literature have read the ethereal plane connects to all points in the universe simultaneously, exactly the same as dimension 11 in current M theory, so is it an argument that if there is no mention to an ethereal plane in a campaign setting its the same as saying " there is a ethereal plane but we have no possible way of accessing or detecting it , thus to all intense and purposes it does not exist " again the exact same situation we have with dimension 11

Stop bringing quantum theory into a setting of magic. Of course there's an ethereal plane in the Realms and in Greyhawk, and there is not one in Eberron. People can travel to the ethereal plane in the former settings and encounter a range of monsters that live in/utilize the ethereal plane in those settings, but can do neither in Eberron. Go check the 3.5E sourcebooks on the planes - one of them, I forget which, explicitly talks about building a cosmology for a setting and how to structure it, including talking about leaving out some planes like the ethereal. The Planes have absolutely nothing to do with M theory or indeed anything to do with real life at all, so please stop trying to apply such silliness to a game.

[TDouglas]

Wow, diddn't realize my simple question would end in a "my god can beat up your god" kinda arguement

As far as mixing science with magic, why not? You (as both a modder and a player) need some kind of "hook" to make sense of the world after all. There are rules of physics in all things (it's what keeps mages from whipping out a wand of nuclear missles in mid combat ). Just beware of the "too much of a good thing" rule.

According to relativity, there are an infinite number of planes that pass through every point in space-time. Thus, Forgotten Realms could be viewed as one such plane, and etc. No real problem from a conceptual standpoint.

I can't help but think that arguements about hyperdimensional physics aren't really helping matters much tho. There's enough room for weridness in any plane.

Consider the limitation of a score of 25 in any given stat for instance. There's no reason to believe this would be a universal constant (that I can think of), so it's possible evolution followed drastically different paths on some other world and ended up with an intelligent species that would consider an IQ of 25 to be functionally retarded (their normal IQ range is in the 60's say). Sorry, but Vecna would likely fair VERY poorly versus such critters (magic in AD&D depends on IQ after all).

As far as the "luminous being" ... c'mon Miloch, everyone knows that's just a minor avatar of Ardenor Crush !

Cheers guys, and thanks for the answers.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Consider the limitation of a score of 25 in any given stat for instance. There's no reason to believe this would be a universal constant (that I can think of), so it's possible evolution followed drastically different paths on some other world and ended up with an intelligent species that would consider an IQ of 25 to be functionally retarded (their normal IQ range is in the 60's say). Sorry, but Vecna would likely fair VERY poorly versus such critters (magic in AD&D depends on IQ after all).

The stat scores are limited for simplicity in the AD&D games.
The Intelligence has nothing to do with IQ in the games either, it has to do with memory. Well, that's how at least it's shown in the game rules, as there cannot be mages with less than Int 9, and the 25 just gives them more kinds of spells they can memorize, not more cast-able spells per level.
And by the way, the IQ is made from the average where generally 95% of the population(not necessary human) has the score from 70-130... so you yourself invalidate the premise.

According to relativity, there are an infinite number of planes that pass through every point in space-time. Thus, Forgotten Realms could be viewed as one such plane, and etc. No real problem from a conceptual standpoint.

Well, no body said that relativity or anything else made it possible to cross over, so yes the FR is real as anything, anything that's an idea, it still doesn't make yours more approachable than mine.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 18 September 2011 - 11:40 PM.

[TDouglas]

Wow, I wasn't trying to imply that the FR setting is "real" (whatever that means), just that you could use physics as a base for dealing with the different settings in the game. For example, FR on one plane, Ravenloft another, etc.

And you're perfectly correct, relativity does not allow one to "know" which plane they happen to be in (no physical test can tell the difference between one and another). Although if the party mage DOES suddenly end up with a wand of nuclear missiles, it's a fair bet you're not in FR anymore .

Lovecrafts creatures weren't supernatural ya know ... they came from other worlds, or other galaxies, or whatever (he seemed to imply Yog Sothoth had come from a completely different multiverse). The problem being that his creations diddn't use magic in the same way it's understood in AD&D (their use did not depend on "the weave", for instance, and would not be limited by it).

My point is that creatures with high enough INT may well be able to integrate with physical forces 25 and lower INT simply cannot imagine (much less hope to control). Actually, I rather think that was Lovecraft's entire point... to show us as being completely helpless in the face of such alien monstrosities.

As far as the gods trying to sweep knowledge of Ao under the rug, there are several references to him throughout game dialog. There are also several references to "dead" gods as well (maybe even the whole "Kozah" thing?), so that appears to be fairly common knowledge as well (at least as far as BG is concerned).

My curiosity was about how Ao related to demihuman (or non-human in general) gods and pantheons. I wasn't aware he was supposed to be the only power at that level in "realmspace" (the FR plane?), but many of my old books have been lost over the years. You never hear references to him outside of human gods in the game, so I was thinking their might well be a whole slew of creatures at his level, each overseeing the pantheons of a particular race. Such was the original question anyways .

Thanks for the input tho, it's given me a lot to think about!

[Tempest]

My curiosity was about how Ao related to demihuman (or non-human in general) gods and pantheons. I wasn't aware he was supposed to be the only power at that level in "realmspace" (the FR plane?), but many of my old books have been lost over the years. You never hear references to him outside of human gods in the game, so I was thinking their might well be a whole slew of creatures at his level, each overseeing the pantheons of a particular race. Such was the original question anyways .

The gist of it seems to be that Ao is above all gods and pantheons, but he's only been known to interfere with the human pantheon because only the human pantheon causes enough trouble that Ao needs to interfere. The other pantheons have no track record of putting reality in danger, so Ao leaves them be.

[Choo Choo]

As far as the gods trying to sweep knowledge of Ao under the rug, there are several references to him throughout game dialog. There are also several references to "dead" gods as well (maybe even the whole "Kozah" thing?), so that appears to be fairly common knowledge as well (at least as far as BG is concerned).

If I remember correctly, Kozah is simply a very old name for Talos, who is very much alive. No, a better example of a dead god would be... Bhaal. Or Myrkul, or Amaunator (who's only mostly dead, granted.)

[TDouglas]

I've read about the Kozah/Talos connection through google. One of the things that drives me crazy about the BG series is the inconsistency. For instance, C. Nib was telling the miner that the tomb was ancient, that the gods of netheril would have been young when it was sealed. Wouldn't that have been before the human gods existed? Thus, Kozah could not be Talos (tho Talos could have assumed his portfolio after his death).

Another favorite is the note you find in Gorion's chamber (in the unmodded bg1 game). That note said he and your mother had been lovers on and off again through their youth, that she had died in childbirth, and that he had taken you in out of loyalty to her memory. Fine and dandy, but quite a different story to the one presented in TOB .

It's even better if you're playing a half-orc character: since Bhalls mortal form was human, that would imply Gorion was having an affair with an Orc . It's also a slap in the face to the TOB version (no self-respecting Orc would stoop to the worship of a wimpy god like Bhall, so that portion is also invalidated).

Ah well, lots of room for different interpretations I suppose .

[Jarno Mikkola]

It's even better if you're playing a half-orc character: since Bhalls mortal form was human, that would imply Gorion was having an affair with an Orc

Sorry, but if I was a god and had an affair with a human, the baby would still be a full on dragon... and she would probably have the same kind of child birth as in the movie Alien. But then I am not a god.
As it's never said that the god needs to have the same form as the child inherits. It of course is easier for the mother and the step father to have same racial identity as the child, so it's not burned at the stake and all that.