18 replies to this topic

[dorotea]

Sorry for my sudden dissappearance. Just to let everybody know - I am alive and working on the Longer Road project again actively. After the long and interesting discussion of the Dreams - thanks to everybody - I now have a very good idea of how I am going to explain these, I have another discussion in mind. If you suddenly feel interested or inspired please stop by and share your opinion on the few interesting facts.

(1) What is exactly Bhaal taint and what is it relationship to your soul?

(2) Is your *divinity* and your *taint* one and the same?

(3) How come Irenicus removes your 'soul' but leaves you the 'instinct' and the Bhaal taint that later 'takes over the void' and produces Slayer?

(4) How is it that Irenicus is able to assume the Slayer Form himself later on after you have already had it?

(5) If you chose to become mortal you give up the divinity and the 'taint' but obviously not the soul - does it mean you give up your 'instinct'?

(6) If so - what is the point in Jon taking the 'other' part and leaving the instinct to you?

[Seifer]

Well, I'd like to offer my opinions here if I may.

1) taint [taynt]
v (3rd person present singular taints, present participle tainting, past tainted, past participle tainted)
1. vt pollute something: to pollute or contaminate something with something undesirable or dangerous
2. vt corrupt somebody morally: to corrupt somebody morally or detract from somebody?s reputation by associating him or her with something reprehensible
3. vt flavour something: to give a scent or flavour of one thing to another
4. vi spoil: to spoil or become rotten


n (plural taints)
1. imperfection detracting from quality: an imperfection that detracts from the quality of somebody or something
a taint on her reputation

2. something detracting from purity of something: something that detracts from the purity or cleanliness of something


[Late 16th century. Partly via Anglo-Norman teint , literally ?coloured, dyed?, from Latin tingere (see tinge), and partly from Old French ataint ?convicted?, the past participle of ateindre

This question can be tackled on a number of levels, most importantly, semantically and biologically. To my mind the word taint is very biased as it takes on the hu of spoiling the PC's soul, much the same as their Father Bhaal would have done. Look at the word choice that Elhan used in describing Ellesime's link with her diety. I think that as the game has an uneven balance towards goodness, sementically, this is another example of that imbalance. Its in this context that the taitn can be seen as a spoiling characteristic of whatever innate goodness that PC might have.

2) Divinity refers to ethnic origins of a 'higher diety' whatever its intentions. I see this as the protagonists parentage whilst the taint is its lingering effect. Consider, that such a mark from a good aligned diety would no doubt be described as a 'blessing.'

3) This question can be seen as a macrocosm of the eternal 'nature vs nurture' debate.

*I'll have to edit this later on to continue, lecture time*

[NiGHTMARE]

Exactly what is a Bhaalspawn's physical relationship to Bhaal? How did he create them? I always assumed that Bhaal took on an avatar of the appropriate species and physically impregnated the mother (which seems to be the process in Greek myth [but those folks were weird]).

The only other case I know of in FR where a deity had children with a mortal is Mystra (Bane's son Xvim was with a Demon, wasn't it?) In her case, she inhabited the body of an Elven woman (with her permission), quickly married a man who had previously been persuing the Elven woman, and proceeded to have children with him "the natural way".

If this is the case, it means some Bhaalspawn might have the same mother and father... Imoen and Sarevok could very well be full brother and sister, for example

[Bjorn]

Sorry for my sudden dissappearance. Just to let everybody know - I am alive and working on the Longer Road project again actively. After the long and interesting discussion of the Dreams - thanks to everybody - I now have a very good idea of how I am going to explain these, I have another discussion in mind. If you suddenly feel interested or inspired please stop by and share your opinion on the few interesting facts.

For what it's worth here's my take on things:

(1) What is exactly Bhaal taint and what is it relationship to your soul?

I see your soul as being something that is inherently 'you', not passed down from either parent. So I would say that Bhaal taint is a separate thing from your soul, but that it inhabits the same sort of part of you, and that it is constantly trying to corrupt your soul. So it is sort of like a war between the Bhaal taint and your soul - if you are strong and try to resist the taint, your soul will remain relatively pure and you will stay 'you'. But if you give in to the taint, your soul will become more and more corrupt until it is eventually taken over by the taint and then you will gradually cease to be 'you', and become the essence of murder (maybe eventually turning into the Slayer for good).

(2) Is your *divinity* and your *taint* one and the same?

I think the taint is a part of your divinity, but not the whole of it. The divinity is in your whole self, including your soul. So the divinity can be turned towards 'good' or 'evil' as the PC chooses - for example, getting different special abilities in BG1 depending on whether you choose the 'good' or 'evil' path, and becoming a benevolent or evil god at the end of ToB. But the taint is always a force for murder, no matter what. The divinity cannot be fought against - it is simply a part of you, and you will gain abilities from it whether you want them or not. But the taint can be resisted, although it may not be easy to do so.

(3) How come Irenicus removes your 'soul' but leaves you the 'instinct' and the Bhaal taint that later 'takes over the void' and produces Slayer?

See my explanation for the first question - Irenicus takes your soul, removing all resistance to the taint. So basically with your soul gone the taint replaces it, and the 'Slayer side' of you begins to grow stronger and stronger. After a while you would cease to be able to control tyhe Slayer, or possibly it would take you over so thast you would think you were controlling it when actually you were just doing its bidding.

(4) How is it that Irenicus is able to assume the Slayer Form himself later on after you have already had it?

When Irenicus steals your soul, it has already been slightly corrupted by the taint. Since Irenicus actually tries to become the Slayer during your final battle and isn't fighting against this corruption, this is enough to allow him to change. But because he isn't actually tainted himself, he has no difficulty controlling the Slayer.

(5) If you chose to become mortal you give up the divinity and the 'taint' but obviously not the soul - does it mean you give up your 'instinct'?

Hmm - that's a tricky one. Your divinity and the taint are obviously removed, but I would say that any corruption to your soul would remain - although with the taint gone, it would no longer continue to grow more corrupt. So a PC who had been strongly corrupted by the taint might retain some of the instinct.

(6) If so - what is the point in Jon taking the 'other' part and leaving the instinct to you?

I would say that Jon is just interested in your divinity, which he can access through your soul - he doesn't really care about anything else. And he may not understand how the whole thing works, either - he doesn't finish his experiments on you, after all.

Well, I hope these ramblings were of some use to you .

[dorotea]

I read all the post and find them very interesting - and some of them are very close to my own ideas on the matter. However I want to post something for your consideration at first glance unrelated to the topic.

The ancient Egyptians regarded the human being as made up of many different elements; with the Ba and the Ka being most important elements of the soul.

The concept of the Ka and the Ba (elements of the soul) is an ancient one which is not so easy to understand for our western minds.

The Ba

has sometimes been equalized with our concept of the vital energy, (the definition of which also varies according to whom you may ask) but there are several differences.

The Ba refers to all those non-physical qualities that make up the personality of a human. The Ba was very much attached to the physical body, contrary to the concept of the soul or the spirit. It was even thought that the Ba had physical needs, like food and water.

Now this reminds me of something else - the 'instinct' ?

The Ka

Originally the word Ka meant 'bull', but soon its meaning became intellectual and spiritual power.

It is almost impossible to translate the concept into our words, but try to think of it as the 'creative power in any being, wether human or divine'. The word 'sustenance' has also been used as description.

It was thought that the creator god Khnum created a person´s Ka when he created the person on his potter´s wheel. The Ka then followed the person like a shadow or a double all through life, but when the person died, the Ka returned to its heavenly abode.

The divine spirit?

Which makes me think that following this concept every soul would be made of at least 2 components

Soul = animalistic instinct (Ba) + spiritual power (Ka)

Now which part Jon would be after ?

Also - which part would be responsible for the Slayer?

While Irenicus cast his spell on me to steal my divinity... my soul... I was mired in a dream in which I fought against the personification of my instinct, and prevailed. 

... you live *yet*?!  You have less than a fraction of your soul and yet somehow you *continue* to oppose me?

And since Bhaal essence permeates your entire soul both the instinct and the spiritual power would be affected , would not they?

[Sphira]

(1) What is exactly Bhaal taint and what is it relationship to your soul?
The taint is Bhaal's life force, it is the agonist to the PC's divinity and wants to corrupt the soul. The divinity protects the soul.

(2) Is your *divinity* and your *taint* one and the same?
Somewhat, the divinity is the light side, the taint is the dark side.

(3) How come Irenicus removes your 'soul' but leaves you the 'instinct' and the Bhaal taint that later 'takes over the void' and produces Slayer?
The instinct is pure chaos (which is friggin odd considering Bhaal's Lawful Evil) and that is something Irenicus does not want nor does he want the taint. Who would want Bhaal's shade bothering them in their dreams all the time? He took the soul and divinity because they were tied together. Perhaps he believed you'd go insane with just the taint and instinct. If you keep turning into the slayer, you eventually do that.

4) How is it that Irenicus is able to assume the Slayer Form himself later on after you have already had it?
The game designers have a lousy definition of irony.

(5) If you chose to become mortal you give up the divinity and the 'taint' but obviously not the soul - does it mean you give up your 'instinct'?
Your instinct is still intact, however the taint is gone and you no longer become the slayer. You just have your soul and instinct.

(6) If so - what is the point in Jon taking the 'other' part and leaving the instinct to you?
Divinity: So he could become a god.
Soul: Hostage against the PC.

The taint and the divinity is the Bhaalessence.

[Tancred]

I think I made these same points in the Dream thread, but I like them so much I'll make 'em again! Feel free to throw rotted veg, etc.

1) The Bhaal Taint

This is the Hyde to your Jekyll. It's a sort of alter ego that simmers just behind your own - it simmers behind the souls of all Bhaalspawn. It is one consciousness, a sort of echo of Bhaal, divided into many different parts across so many beings. It covets the divine power within you, as Bhaal might well do if he were alive. I don't credit it with what you'd call 'sentience', but it does have consciousness.

2) Divinity vs. Taint

No... they are not one and the same. You are the child of a god, and quite frankly it doesn't matter which god. That power lies within you, a huge potentiality that can be shaped. The taint wants it, or if it cannot claim you outright by defeating your will, it will try to steer you along the path of Murder. If you had no will of your own, the taint would simply control you. The fact that you DO have will allows you to claim that power for yourself (dreams and powers in BG1) and deny it to the taint, whether you are evil or good.

Thought: It is your divinity that travels back down to the Throne of Blood when you die. But it is possibly the Taint that MAKES it go back down...

3) The Taint without the Soul

If the taint is an echo of Bhaal, I think that's what the Slayer is. Once your soul and your divinity is gone and there's nothing but this hole, the 'Hyde' finds a way to manifest by filling the gap. You can fight it with your will like before, but without your divinity and the power it brings, you cannot keep the Taint back forever. The taint draws upon this one consciousness, this echo, resulting in a sort-of-but-not-quite Avatar form.

4) Irenicus and the Taint

The soul that was yours is now shared by you and Jon... fair enough. But so is the divinity and the Taint. Jon has your power, and with it he can keep check over the Taint though willpower and divine power, just as you could. At the end, however, I think Irenicus accepts the taint, makes a pact with it. In this hell-realm, the Taint has more of a voice than it might ever have. In Jon's mind this is the last battle he needs to fight and win - and the taint can help him do that by allowing him to become the Slayer. Afterwards... no doubt he thinks he can find a way to remove it from himself. If he becomes a God, maybe he won't have to. No doubt the Taint covets the thought of becoming one of the Seldarine?

5) The 'instinct'

Bhaal is, after all, a personification of the taking of life. The potential to kill others and gain from it in many ways is within all human beings... and it is these emotions and thoughts that the Taint may well cling to and empower in its' efforts to bring you down. Once your soul is gone and your will is not strong enough to hold the Taint back alone, the Taint battles to take hold of those emotions and impulses within you and strengthen them until you become a similar personification of the taking of life - in other words, you lose your will completely to those impulses, and the Taint wins outright.

The gods cannot take from you this instinct - it is part of your humanity, albeit a reviled and sickening part. But with the Taint gone, you can exercise control over those impulses as any sane, rational being can.

6) Jon's 'instinct'

Quite frankly, Jon doesn't take your instinct because he's already got his own. The Taint no doubt starts playing with it once it is in him. The Taint is, after all, divine in origin too, and I'm not sure Jon fully understands just how weird it is to be a Bhaalspawn - hence he ends up with a part of it. But not all of it - he ends up with the part that had a tiny foothold in your soul already, possibly. Not a lot, but enough.

So, to summarise, there's five different facets here:

- The PC's 'self', his or her own will
- The PC's human soul
- The part of the PC that is divine in origin
- The 'taint', the echo of Bhaal himself
- The instinct to kill, common to all creatures, from whence the portfolio of Murder came

and those various facets all interrelate to some degree. Wheee! The logic's fuzzy, wibbly and downright wobbly but to me it's the only way I can understand what in hell's name is going on.

[maidros]

Hi Tancred,
Nice ideas you have got there. There are a couple of things though.

No... they are not one and the same. You are the child of a god, and quite frankly it doesn't matter which god. That power lies within you, a huge potentiality that can be shaped. The taint wants it, or if it cannot claim you outright by defeating your will, it will try to steer you along the path of Murder. If you had no will of your own, the taint would simply control you. The fact that you DO have will allows you to claim that power for yourself (dreams and powers in BG1) and deny it to the taint, whether you are evil or good

It is acceptable to some extent, but I am not sure that it is only the will that keeps the taint at bay. Remember Imoen is not goaded by the taint of Bhaal (she does not have the dreams about Bhaal until a long time). My guess is that while will can keep the taint at bay, there are other things also that can counteract its influence. One is probably innocence. Remember that even in the PC's case, the will of Bhaal does not have any influence while Gorion is alive (at least none that we know of). So while the will is important other things (the purity of a Bhaalspawn soul?) that can overcome the taint.

The soul that was yours is now shared by you and Jon... fair enough. But so is the divinity and the Taint. Jon has your power, and with it he can keep check over the Taint though willpower and divine power, just as you could. At the end, however, I think Irenicus accepts the taint, makes a pact with it. In this hell-realm, the Taint has more of a voice than it might ever have. In Jon's mind this is the last battle he needs to fight and win - and the taint can help him do that by allowing him to become the Slayer. Afterwards... no doubt he thinks he can find a way to remove it from himself. If he becomes a God, maybe he won't have to. No doubt the Taint covets the thought of becoming one of the Seldarine?

Well, the taint is really the will of Bhaal in my opinion. It will try to steer you along the direction it wants (or rather Bhaal wants) you to go. Suppose Jon were to become a god, would he become an elven deity of murder?

Thanks for your ideas, Tancred.

[Laufey]

Why is Imoen "more" innocent than the PC? If they both left Candlekeep at the same time, they've most likely seen the same things and been involved in the same violence inherent to an adventurer's life...so why are their "innocent levels" different?

So. In light of this, Saravok's comments (in Saradush) to one of the Bhaalspawn there that "the blood (or something) of Bhaal must be thin in this one" might apply to Imoen too? So is maybe that the reason why 1) Imoen has been spared Bhaal's manifestations previously and 2) Irenicus (testing aside) was more interested in the PC. Bhaal's taint was simply (somehow) less in Imoen?

I personally always thought that Imoen's Bhaal taint/Blood/power or whatever, was weaker than that of the PC, and that was part of the reason why she was less easily influenced, and developed her powers later. Her inherent sunny nature probably helped, but I don't think that can be the whole truth, since CHARNAME could perfectly well share similar personality traits.

So anyway, I agree, I think Imoen had less of the Bhaal inheritance.

[MooN]

During the game one npc, dont really remember which one, says about all the bhaalspawn, that they were meant to grow in power which would ultimately, after their death, return to bhaal along with his essence.I've always thought that protagonist, as a half-god, is a powerful being himself and the taint is just a piece of his father's essence, which tries to corrupt and take over the bhaalchild's power and send it right to the throne to make 'The Great Comeback' possible.I may be mistaken, but imho godchild is a godchild, nothing more but sill, nothing less:P When (if) our favourite bhaalspawn gives up bhaal's essence, it's stilll bhaal's essence, and protagonist's essence still stays with him...

[NiGHTMARE]

Perhaps the reason Imoen's taint isn't as strong could be explained away by saying that she's not actually a child of Bhaal, but rather a grandchild/a great grandchild/etc. After all, the fact that there's a half-dragon grandchild of Bhaal suggest that the first Bhaalspawn was born centuries ago.

[Tancred]

I've always thought that it was the fact that the PC was the One Upon Whom The Prophecy Centred - and that the Taint was AWARE of that, on some cosmic level - that meant the PC had all these dreams and whatnot.

[Althernai]

Hard, hard questions - mostly because the game is not entirely clear or consistent on this.

(1) What is exactly Bhaal taint and what is it relationship to your soul?

The taint is the divine essense you inherited from Bhaal -- it fights with your soul for control of your actions. I do not think it is an integral part of your soul -- when it goes away, the protagonist remains. However, until that time the soul and the taint cannot be separated.

(2) Is your *divinity* and your *taint* one and the same?

I think so. They are used interchangeably by Mel and the Solar in ToB.

(3) How come Irenicus removes your 'soul' but leaves you the 'instinct' and the Bhaal taint that later 'takes over the void' and produces Slayer?
(4) How is it that Irenicus is able to assume the Slayer Form himself later on after you have already had it?

Now these I can answer with some certainty. The key is that Irenicus stole most of both the soul and the taint -- but not all of it. Sarevok tells you this much in Hell:

Your soul is tainted by the touch of our father, fool, and it is that part which rules over this realm.  But you share your soul with another, don't you?
The mage, he stole most of your soul, but not all. You are tethered like a helpless calf, dragged into hell after him. Neither of you is truly alive, or truly dead.

Apparently, when a part of the soul and the taint is taken away, the remainder temporarily loses control to the remainder of the taint (until the will reinforces it, thus re-estblishing control).
Irenicus has exactly the same issues as you do -- except that he embraces the power of the Slayer and does not resist the influence of the taint. The two are drawing on the same soul at the same time, so he gets to use the Slayer as well.

(5) If you chose to become mortal you give up the divinity and the 'taint' but obviously not the soul - does it mean you give up your 'instinct'?

Yes, you give up the instinct (i.e. the desire to kill and the ability to transform into the Slayer/Ravager) -- if not, you would still be a Bhaalspawn. However, it is not clear what exactly happens -- things you have gained and lost are very much integrated into the character (some ability scores are higher, some are lower; same goes for resistances XP and HP). Is it the essense itself that changed the character or going through the experiences granted by the essense?

I think that is up to individual interpretations.

(6) If so - what is the point in Jon taking the 'other' part and leaving the instinct to you?

See above. He did not take the other part, he took a part of everything.

[Bruno]

I would like to suggest a few things about *Taint*, *Soul* and *Instinct*.



Why did Irenicus choose the souls of <Charname> and Imoen ?

The first time he tried to desecrate the tree of life , his *essence*(soul) was elven , that was his connection with the Seldarine and the tree of life . Without his elven essence , he would not be able to realize the ritual (kill the tree, become a god) .

That's why he became desperate .

Years after the incident in Suldanesselar , Irenicus found the answer to his problems : A divine soul would make him able to realize the ritual once again .

After the fall of Sarevok in Baldur's Gate , Irenicus suspected you both shared the same lineage , and kidnapped you .


What about the Soul , taint and instinct stuff ?

Irenicus' spell was probably dangerous and risky(xx% of something different happening) . He tried to steal your divine soul , but somehow he failed . You both now share the same essence , and that's why you two were taken to Bhaal's abyssal realm .

[dorotea]

Hi folks!

Thank you all for participating in this discussion - it was extremely helpful and clarified some points for me. By the way - I finally decided to post the dialog related to Bhaal Taint in the open forum - it can be found at

http://www.gamejag.c...6a66c440204bc48

It is only the first part of the 2 major dialogs , so stay tuned - and you input is always appreciated!

[fallen_demon]

(4) How is it that Irenicus is able to assume the Slayer Form himself later on after you have already had it?

imo, but i seem to have a bad habit of misreading dialogue and often thinking it said the complete oppisite:

irenicus tried to take your actual essence and divinity but leave the taint to destroy you. you kept a little of the essance and he got a little taint, but he mostly suceeded, leaving you with the slayer form and ability to be pulled down to your father, but not your most basic bhaalspawn powers which could be used w/o risk.
But in the final battle, after having taken the tests and 'finding your soul' the whole taint/soul/instinct/divinity was not split but together and being used by the two of you simetaneously, which was why irenicus now says you both have an equal chance of wining while on the tree of life he commented on how you had practically none of your soul. this gave you your powers back and allowed irenicus to transform. he refears to now only relizing the power because in the lab he choose to leave the taint behind with you.