36 replies to this topic

[Zyraen]

@guguma:
Bad enough trying to create an Avatar for Bhaal, why bother with Helm (though WK makes an attempt at the end, but that's a spirit). There is nothing that you write which has not already been covered by Solar.

what I mean with removing Solar is just that part where Solar says something like "Enough, etc..." as if without her intervention we'd have been seriously screwed stuck in a permanent fight with Melissan (well not if we have Wish and/or 2 rings of gaxxes), doesn't mean Solar is gone forever.

Much as I agree with what Miloch / Chev said on Bhaal's avatar, I can't possibly commit myself (or anyone else) to adding a full set of BAMs to the game for purpose of creating a creature that shows up only once at the end. (well Bioware did that, but they were paid and plus i'm lazy!!). Of course I have no idea how to add BAMs and would be happier if all the work that went into it was simply in the form of some .D some .BAF work and that's it.

That said, Bhaal looking like Melissan sucks big time, and it would be better if he took a separate form. Anything but more of that woman...

[Zireael]

Bhaal could look like the Ravager (the reddish type of Slayer was it?)... therefore, no probs. Or he could look like he looks in the PC's Spellhold dream - like BG1 Sarevok.
Or (reading one of the earlier posts) you could use both - Sarevok for the normal avatar and Ravager for the change.

[Chevalier]

I am not going to work on this mod, but will give you all my ideas.

I did not read up on Bhaal, like Miloch has, and I am not sure what his powers should be, but they should be strong. A full god would be unbeatable, but at this stage he has not fully regained his powers. We can have a discussion on why you can kill a god's avatar, but can't kill a god (outside the Time of Troubles) somewhere else.

Seeing a god should be impressive and with the limited graphics of BG size is the easiest way. Zyraen is right in that it would be alot of work to make a set of animations for just one appearance. How bad would a sized up Slayer animation as his Ravager 'true form' look? Maybe advertise on graphic sites for an artist who would like the challenge?

I too would keep the Solar, but change the dialog or have AO speak with the PC offering godhood (he should be heard not seen). Helm just doesn't seem like a messenger for this.

A dialog change from my earlier post "OH, the POWER! I Feel it RETURNING"

[Miloch]

I did not read up on Bhaal, like Miloch has, and I am not sure what his powers should be, but they should be strong. A full god would be unbeatable, but at this stage he has not fully regained his powers. We can have a discussion on why you can kill a god's avatar, but can't kill a god (outside the Time of Troubles) somewhere else.

Somewhere else, perhaps, but you *can* kill a god on his home plane, and the Throne of Bhaal is in Bhaal's home plane by its own description. Even if it has "drifted", Bhaal would be exposing himself to "permanent" death (again) if he rematerialised there, so he would no doubt make sure he had enough strength and backing (and motive) to take the PC if he did so.

Seeing a god should be impressive and with the limited graphics of BG size is the easiest way. Zyraen is right in that it would be alot of work to make a set of animations for just one appearance. How bad would a sized up Slayer animation as his Ravager 'true form' look? Maybe advertise on graphic sites for an artist who would like the challenge?

From the description of it I posted above, his 'true form' should look more like a sort of storm giant with devilish horns. It wouldn't be too tough to port something from NWN (or perhaps another game - most of what I've seen has looked either like a devil or a giant, not usually both.) Honestly, like I said, the animation should be a minor concern or of no concern (leave it to another mod like Infinity Animations). The scripting and .spl files would comprise the majority of the work for such a mod.

I too would keep the Solar, but change the dialog or have AO speak with the PC offering godhood (he should be heard not seen). Helm just doesn't seem like a messenger for this.

I'm not sure Ao would step in here - he tries to stay out of things unless it absolutely needs his intervention. Why have another being "offer" it at all? Pose the choice to the PC through his/her own "enlightenment" via self-dialogue.

[Zyraen]

I'm not sure Ao would step in here - he tries to stay out of things unless it absolutely needs his intervention. Why have another being "offer" it at all? Pose the choice to the PC through his/her own "enlightenment" via self-dialogue

Speechless...

Miloch <== ze Awesome!!!

[Chevalier]

I'm not sure Ao would step in here - he tries to stay out of things unless it absolutely needs his intervention. Why have another being "offer" it at all? Pose the choice to the PC through his/her own "enlightenment" via self-dialogue.

I would agree for most all things, but who is and who isn't a god is up to him ultimately. You both maybe right that he would not put in an appearance.

[Eric P.]

My recollection of Bhaal from the Avatar Trilogy is that he resembled a man, was heavily muscled, and had wide shoulders. Either bald, or I just thought he was bald. Not all that tall, but fast and powerful. Don't know how accurate this is.

- E

[Miloch]

My recollection of Bhaal from the Avatar Trilogy is that he resembled a man, was heavily muscled, and had wide shoulders. Either bald, or I just thought he was bald. Not all that tall, but fast and powerful. Don't know how accurate this is.

I don't know if he's bald, but I think he'd appear at his own throne in form something like the true "ravager" form what I posted from Faiths & Avatars:

Bhaal manifested in rural settings, such as the Moonshaes, as a giant of a man. The Ravager, as this form was known, as over 30 feet tall, with long, tough sinews, a flowing beard and mane of hair, eyes that glowed with the flames of Gehenna, a face twisted in a grimace of supernatural hatred, and two 7-foot-long curved horns protruding from his forehead.

I think the "mane of hair" description discounts any baldness. Maybe not a "rural" setting, but one in which he wouldn't feel the need to restrict himself to a smaller human-sized form (such as that of the Slayer).

("Avatar Trilogy"? Did you mean BG Trilogy? Edit: nevermind, I guess you mean some FR novels. If you can find an actual description, feel free to post it, though I've mentioned elsewhere why game manuals-e.g. Faiths & Avatars-are considered "more canon" by the FR's own designers.)

Edited by Miloch, 21 April 2011 - 09:51 PM.

[sotona]

I mean, it also makes more sense, it is as if Melissan is the only priest of Bhaal left alive (I do not quite remember the lore but I do not remember anything like that), and almost all the bhaalspawn essences are gathered, surely if Amounator can still retain some form, Bhaal would be much more capable to do so in this condition.

Amaunator didn't get killed by another God during the ToT, his power just waned because his followers deserted him. Bhaal had plans to return, but for that, he needed help (Amelyssan was his most powerful follower). And he needed help because he would be DEAD, so he couldn't affect the outcome in ToB because of that.

We all know that being dead didn't stop Bane from returning through his son Xvim, so why Bhaal can't do the same thing (sort of).

[sotona]

The only last bit of interest is where does he spawn in, what are his powers, etc etc? Being a lazy prick, introducing him as Melissan is weakened and dipping herself back in Bhaal juices (literally), would just have her as the vessel of his rebirth. I would take plenty of satisfaction knowing that she exploded into chunks of flesh, replaced by him, or that he simply took over her body. The change is cosmetic, Bhaal shows up, and also putting to rest the remaining 2-3 siblings of yours (come on, he wants the essence right?)

He does a brief exposition claiming that he expected her betrayal all along, and thanks you (mockingly, the usual) for facilitating his return. He isn't fully himself yet though, thanks to you, so kindly fall over and die.

Abilities, I would like him to be a mage but that wouldn't fit. It would be more poetic if he summons up a few spellcasters while he goes Ravager + Bone Blade + lots of things all over. Or well, something else, so that it doesn't become an anticlimactic rip-off of ToB work. Perhaps an adaptation of Irenicus' final fight for Tactics?

So.. how do you kill a God? if Cyric's ascension is anything to go by, +5 +6 +7 weapons don't cut it. Well simple enough, you have to literally use your own essence of Bhaal and colaesce it into a weapon, ala Godsbane (for those lore pple). Of course, it should simply be named something else cool, maybe not have many cool abilities. And in the end, Bhaal has to be struck by Godsbane to die.

I'm actually like that. And, uh, he should SPEAK WITH CAPS

Edited by sotona, 21 April 2011 - 11:30 PM.

[Eric P.]

My recollection of Bhaal from the Avatar Trilogy is that he resembled a man, was heavily muscled, and had wide shoulders. Either bald, or I just thought he was bald. Not all that tall, but fast and powerful. Don't know how accurate this is.

I don't know if he's bald, but I think he'd appear at his own throne in form something like the true "ravager" form what I posted from Faiths & Avatars:

Bhaal manifested in rural settings, such as the Moonshaes, as a giant of a man. The Ravager, as this form was known, as over 30 feet tall, with long, tough sinews, a flowing beard and mane of hair, eyes that glowed with the flames of Gehenna, a face twisted in a grimace of supernatural hatred, and two 7-foot-long curved horns protruding from his forehead.

I think the "mane of hair" description discounts any baldness. Maybe not a "rural" setting, but one in which he wouldn't feel the need to restrict himself to a smaller human-sized form (such as that of the Slayer).

("Avatar Trilogy"? Did you mean BG Trilogy? Edit: nevermind, I guess you mean some FR novels. If you can find an actual description, feel free to post it, though I've mentioned elsewhere why game manuals-e.g. Faiths & Avatars-are considered "more canon" by the FR's own designers.)

Yes, I meant the novels, namely Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep. Those were the novels that dealt with the Time of Troubles, and later expanded to include Prince of Lies and Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. As for my description, that must have been for Bhaal's Slayer form. I have no memory of his other forms, and I haven't read the Moonshae series, but I've seen the artwork of a very large representation of Bhaal, with the horns and everything. The novels are cannon, of course.

- E

[Eric P.]

Checked out the Wiki on Bhaal. It supports that the most common avatar is a hard done to corpse with a feral face, striking unerringly and moving without sound. I'd like to see a set of custom BAMs made to represent this! Elsewhere, I recently read about the giant and the shapeshifter forms of his avatar. Those could probably be done using existing files. Being that I use a Mac, I don't believe it's possible for me to create the files needed for such work, or I'd have been doing it all this time (graphics and sound being my main interests).

"And that's all I have to say about that."

- E

[Miloch]

It supports that the most common avatar is a hard done to corpse with a feral face, striking unerringly and moving without sound.

That is his (true) Slayer form as I described above. He probably wouldn't appear in that form in a battle to a (possibly "permanent") death, but something closer to the true Ravager form. Neither of which BG2 represents well. But in any case, it would be possible to port such an animation from elsewhere or make one in a 3D program. Sadly though, it would not be Mac-compatible without overwriting some other (possibly existing or unused) animation, or someone converting something like TobEx or Infinity Animations to OSX format (which would take an OSX programming guru, as previously discussed).

[Vherdel]

Hey guys, I know I´m relatively new to this place and all, but I got a little suggestion for Bhaal´s powers ingame and his avatar.

Lorewise we know his avatar forms, the slayer, Kazgoroth and the ravager.

But since in this scenario his has not attained his full potential yet, why not give him a thief avatar, but with strange shiny colors? ( like Cyric has when he appears ).

The story of the history of the dead three explain that Bhaal was an assassin, so this avatar would suit nicely ( perhaps the same pale skin as Cyric has, but every piece of equipment the blackest of black ).

Also, as for the whole bone dagger thing, we could make him insta/hasted, dual wielding some custom bone daggers ( looking like the longtooth dagger or something, I'd imagine ) with perhaps a few % of vorpal chances on it ( with saves ).
Also give him the ability to insta cast invisibility, wail of the banshee and death spell ( he is the god of death after all ) a few times per round, andof course, since he was an assassin, give him a backstab multiplier of x8 or something.

And maybe spawn in a few bone blades as in the ravager battle or something.

And perhaps some more crippling/draining abilities.

This is just a start, but those are a few things I'd see fitting for lord Bhaal.

Edited by Vherdel, 22 June 2011 - 02:26 PM.

[HighTimeRodeo]

Hi! I was just reading the posts and I think this is a great idea! Bhaal turning on Melissan and exploding her would be awesome.

I agree with Vherdel, a thief avatar like Cyric would work great. As for his powers, why not a version of Irenicus' during the fight in hell? Maybe a swarm of demons as well? Balors, Glabrezu's and other creatures.

Just my opinion. XD

[ARKdeEREH]

The problem with making him a full God as opposed to an Avatar would be the expectation. There is no "God" in the game itself so it would have to be crated, and if it fails expectations it wont really do it for most people. That might be why the makers didn't attempt it themselves.

Bhaal does appear in the game. He is in one of the Irenicus-induced dreams in Shadows of Amn. If someone could take that version of him and make it much bigger and give it the power to turn into the slayer and ravager I think it would properly reflect Bhaal.

[i30817]

Melissan is a terrible villain, and ToB is a horrible expansion. I'd much prefer if Bhaal was active through ToB. As if, you aren't taken in by Melissan pathetic disassembling, perform urgent decapitation on her, and then a avatar of bhaal is reborn from her accumulated essence and starts to kill the rest of the idiots.

Making just a switcheroo of Melissan-by-Bhall doesn't remedy the derp of the rest of ToB (though it IS fitting).

Edited by i30817, 29 October 2011 - 04:30 PM.