36 replies to this topic

[guguma]

Hello All,

Before I present my idea, I must say that the IE modding community is the best one I have seen, I truly understand the difficulties present in modding after going through a BWP I am simply amazed at what everyone did, and I cannot congratulate you enough.

SO HERE IS THE IDEA,

One thing (and maybe the only one) that bothers me with BG2-TOB, is the ending, the Melissan battle. Seriously an annoying priest jumping in a vortex of essences 3 times and You have to battle her 3 times until a planetar declares who the winner is, and Melissan is declared the loser just because she cannot contain the essences, it is unfair for Melissan, and it is unfair for you!!! This is not an epic ending at all don't you agree, if it was not for Solar, Melissan would probably shred us to pieces since we will be exhausted. It feels as if Solar comes in like the mother of Melissan and You and stops You from fighting:

-Solar: No, no, no stop you two, Melissan give <CHARNAME>'s essencs back now they are not Yours
-Melissan: But...
-Solar: I said NO Melissan, they are not yours to play with, now be a good girl
-<CHARNAME>: -Yaaaay!!
-Solar: Now you be a good God of Murder, OK (pats <CHARNAME> on the head)...

this is just silly.

What I am thinking is instead of that we could battle Melissan only once then something weird happens (whatever you may imagine) and here comes Bhaal (of course he will not be Bhaal which has access to the entire essence pool). So imagine this, Melissan is defeated, just as You are about to strike the final blow Bhaal interrupts, some dialogue occurs between Bhaal and Melissan and Bhaal kills Melissan (in a terrible way), then a dialogue between You and Bhaal. So in the end Bhaal has the essence he had gathered from Melissan, You have Yours, and You can fight over the rest of the essences. That would be a more epic and better ending would not it?

Thanks for reading.

Edited by guguma, 17 April 2011 - 12:17 AM.

[Zyraen]

download and install ToB Ascension

http://weidu.org/asc.html

Edited by Zyraen, 17 April 2011 - 12:27 AM.

[guguma]

download and install ToB Ascension

http://weidu.org/asc.html

Ascension just makes the battle harder, it is still Melissan in the end. I am not after a tougher battle, I am after a more satisfying ending and a chance to battle a real god. Please read the spoiler section if You played through NWN2 MotB:

Spoiler

No matter how epic a character You become Bioware never gives us the satisfaction to battle a god, you should always feel weak compared to gods, if anyone played NWN2 MotB:

Do You remember how in the end if You tell Kelemvor that You will tear down the wall of the faithless, he says that you will not do that and he can banish you from his plane by a mere thought and You are only there because he lets you to be there!!! Charisma score -25 right there for you. I mean OK, your goal is different in NWN2, but in BG You are ascending to godhood, Melissan is not even a bhaalspawn, if an NPC commoner had access to the throne of bhaal you can as well fight an ulta powerful NPC commoner with godlike powers

Edited by guguma, 17 April 2011 - 12:55 AM.

[sotona]

download and install ToB Ascension

http://weidu.org/asc.html

Ascension just makes the battle harder, it is still Melissan in the end. I am not after a tougher battle, I am after a more satisfying ending and a chance to battle a real god. Please read the spoiler section if You played through NWN2 MotB:

Spoiler

No matter how epic a character You become Bioware never gives us the satisfaction to battle a god, you should always feel weak compared to gods, if anyone played NWN2 MotB:

Do You remember how in the end if You tell Kelemvor that You will tear down the wall of the faithless, he says that you will not do that and he can banish you from his plane by a mere thought and You are only there because he lets you to be there!!! Charisma score -25 right there for you. I mean OK, your goal is different in NWN2, but in BG You are ascending to godhood, Melissan is not even a bhaalspawn, if an NPC commoner had access to the throne of bhaal you can as well fight an ulta powerful NPC commoner with godlike powers

I totally agree. The final fight with Melissan is just stupid. I wonder why Bioware dudes decieded to split it only in three parts, it might as well be 10 or 20

[Miloch]

Ascension just makes the battle harder, it is still Melissan in the end.

I was under the impression it did more than that. From its original readme:

The highlights of the Ascension, itself, are:

* extended Balthazar sequence: Balthazar has a lot more to discuss with you when you meet him in his stronghold. He's a Lawful Good monk determined to destroy Bhaal and his evil essence forever, even in himself...but, depending on your own nature, you may be able to talk him into forgoing a battle or even fighting Melissan at your side. This is, however, not an easy thing to do.

* Irenicus & Bodhi: if you've read the 'thanks' column, you may have come across mention of Irenicus and Bodhi and thought 'what the?!'. Don't worry, it will all make sense. And for those of you who wouldn't think of pairing up with a goody two-shoes pansy like Balthazar, there's another opportunity for an ally in the final battle here, as well.

* a totally redone final battle: the battle at the Throne of Bhaal has been completely redone, from start to finish. Gone are the Elemental Princes and the multiple battles with Melissan and her Slayer Shadows. Melissan has been completely re-done, and the allies she brings to bear against you make this a whole new fight.

* scaleable AI: I wish I could remove the things where the Difficulty slider actually changes the rules of the game. Easy still makes everyone do half damage, and Insane still makes everyone do double damage. Nothing I can do about that. What I have done, however, is scaled the AI more according to the difficulty level. Core is about as difficult as one can get and still have the true D&D rules. If tough battles aren't your thing, set it to Normal or Easy...you will face less opponents and they will have access to less of their powers and spells (or use them less often). If you want a bigger challenge, try Hard or Insane...it will set you against more opponents who do greater damage and less resources to work with.

* better AI: a lot of work has gone into the AI of the opponents you'll face. You can often disrupt their spells, but they'll work at preventing you from being able to. They are still immune to stuff that's appropriate, but the stuff they aren't immune to they will try and deal with when you use it on them. They'll target appropriate opponents with the appropriate attacks and generally use their abilities wisely. Melissan is still a power-house...but she's practically a demigod...the fight against her this time is much more tactical and you've got to figure out how to weaken her before you can take her down.

* some new epilogues: not all of the epilogues have changed, but some of them have been lengthened to what they had been originally written as. A couple have changed completely, and a few new ones have been added.

[Chevalier]

I like the Idea of putting a final end to Bhaal.

[guguma]

Ascension just makes the battle harder, it is still Melissan in the end.

I was under the impression it did more than that. From its original readme:

The highlights of the Ascension, itself, are:

* extended Balthazar sequence: Balthazar has a lot more to discuss with you when you meet him in his stronghold. He's a Lawful Good monk determined to destroy Bhaal and his evil essence forever, even in himself...but, depending on your own nature, you may be able to talk him into forgoing a battle or even fighting Melissan at your side. This is, however, not an easy thing to do.

* Irenicus & Bodhi: if you've read the 'thanks' column, you may have come across mention of Irenicus and Bodhi and thought 'what the?!'. Don't worry, it will all make sense. And for those of you who wouldn't think of pairing up with a goody two-shoes pansy like Balthazar, there's another opportunity for an ally in the final battle here, as well.

* a totally redone final battle: the battle at the Throne of Bhaal has been completely redone, from start to finish. Gone are the Elemental Princes and the multiple battles with Melissan and her Slayer Shadows. Melissan has been completely re-done, and the allies she brings to bear against you make this a whole new fight.

* scaleable AI: I wish I could remove the things where the Difficulty slider actually changes the rules of the game. Easy still makes everyone do half damage, and Insane still makes everyone do double damage. Nothing I can do about that. What I have done, however, is scaled the AI more according to the difficulty level. Core is about as difficult as one can get and still have the true D&D rules. If tough battles aren't your thing, set it to Normal or Easy...you will face less opponents and they will have access to less of their powers and spells (or use them less often). If you want a bigger challenge, try Hard or Insane...it will set you against more opponents who do greater damage and less resources to work with.

* better AI: a lot of work has gone into the AI of the opponents you'll face. You can often disrupt their spells, but they'll work at preventing you from being able to. They are still immune to stuff that's appropriate, but the stuff they aren't immune to they will try and deal with when you use it on them. They'll target appropriate opponents with the appropriate attacks and generally use their abilities wisely. Melissan is still a power-house...but she's practically a demigod...the fight against her this time is much more tactical and you've got to figure out how to weaken her before you can take her down.

* some new epilogues: not all of the epilogues have changed, but some of them have been lengthened to what they had been originally written as. A couple have changed completely, and a few new ones have been added.

Dear Miloch,

I did not want to sound like disgracing the Ascension Mod by stating that it "simply makes the battle more challenging". Yes it does a lot of stuff but still it is Melissan.

Maybe we can come up with an Ultra_Ascension mod, where after Melissan is defeated Bhaal shows up and... (although that would possibly be too much of a fight and wish resting )

What I would really like seeing, is a final battle with Bhaal, not Melissan, and truly earn my godhood (or the right to clear the essence of Bhaal), not by fighting a girl playing god, and definitely not by the decision of some planar creature.

A REALLY angry god who is defied by his own priest and children, yet somewhat scared by how far one of his children has been able to rise, it would be very interesting. And although Bhaal would not have his entire arsenal with him (let's say because he is not fully recovered yet) there are still many opportunities to decide on how Bhaal will be as a character, He may basically banish Your companions and You can have a one-on-one battle as father-son/daughter, or he can summon very dark allies (minions of murder) etc. etc. there are many opportunites.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY

I mean, it also makes more sense, it is as if Melissan is the only priest of Bhaal left alive (I do not quite remember the lore but I do not remember anything like that), and almost all the bhaalspawn essences are gathered, surely if Amounator can still retain some form, Bhaal would be much more capable to do so in this condition.

The more I think the more the Melissan thing does not make sense, She basically jumps in the essence pool, why not jump along yourself or jump in when Melissan is busy battling your companions.

Anyway I will not say more, It makes lots of sense to me. If anyone would be willing to start a project on this I would be willing to help with the best of my ability, I do not have much experience besides creating some items and spells but I will gladly learn and contribute a lot, if just a mentor would be willing to start the project and gets me started, that is all I am saying. If anyone is up for it please respond or shoot me a PM.

Thanks

Edited by guguma, 19 April 2011 - 12:56 AM.

[Zyraen]

While I was initially inclined to dismiss the idea as silly, I think guguma's latest post has some merit.

That said, since he is essentially requesting to fight Bhaal rather as in really a tougher extended fight, and given how many times Melissan jumps into the pool of Bhaal essence, why not have Bhaal possess her as she does that near the end of Ascension (Say with 2 of the Bhaalspawn still alive), manifesting and then fighting the PC ?

That would make a much better ending (At least to guguma, and maybe to me) without requiring much additional work at all. Basically, just a quick small extension to Ascension.

PS : Oh yeah, and Solar should just sod off. Who needs an extraplanar being to protect themself? (mages who summon Planetars aside

Edited by Zyraen, 19 April 2011 - 03:43 AM.

[Chevalier]

You should be able to fight Bhaal and he would need a really cool animation. After killing Melissan, Bhaal appears and says "Just as I had foreseen" "The Last 2 fighting on MY throne" "OH, the POWER!" "All I have to do is kill the last of my children and I will be complete" HAHAHAHAHaHahahahaha!!!

The fight starts!!!

[Daulmakan]

I mean, it also makes more sense, it is as if Melissan is the only priest of Bhaal left alive (I do not quite remember the lore but I do not remember anything like that), and almost all the bhaalspawn essences are gathered, surely if Amounator can still retain some form, Bhaal would be much more capable to do so in this condition.

Amaunator didn't get killed by another God during the ToT, his power just waned because his followers deserted him. Bhaal had plans to return, but for that, he needed help (Amelyssan was his most powerful follower). And he needed help because he would be DEAD, so he couldn't affect the outcome in ToB because of that.

[RavenSW]

Plenty of Mods change the entire game world, so I can't imagine changing the ending would be much more of a leap.

[Miloch]

You should be able to fight Bhaal and he would need a really cool animation. After killing Melissan, Bhaal appears and says "Just as I had foreseen" "The Last 2 fighting on MY throne" "OH, the POWER!" "All I have to do is kill the last of my children and I will be complete" HAHAHAHAHaHahahahaha!!!

The character already faced Bhaal in his Ravager avatar form (chalrv01.cre) in the Pocket Plane (the fifth test). I'm not sure if that counts as a permanent death of a god who's supposedly already dead, but it's likely he wouldn't be quick to remateralise after that.

Bhaal had three avatar forms; a shape-shifting one called Kazgoroth, a human-sized one called the Slayer, and a giant called the Ravager. The Slayer appeared as a corpse-like male humanoid, whereas the Ravager was large and bestial.

Oddly, it's possible the character faces the Slayer avatar form of Bhaal in the third pocket plane test. I'm not sure if these are the god's actual avatars or some sort of manifestation by the Solar.

It's unlikely he'd be able to respawn as Kazgoroth, as he was killed in that form some time earlier in the Moonshae Isles - the second time supposedly permanently (though we all know that's hardly ever true with gods). At any rate, I think the essence of that form is bound to the Horn of Kazgoroth, which the mage Thalatyr is blithely offering for sale in BG1. I always thought it'd be cool to make a mod that makes those artifacts far more evil, possibly even resurrecting Kazgoroth if used enough.

Edited by Miloch, 20 April 2011 - 12:38 AM.

[Chevalier]

The character already faced Bhaal in his Ravager avatar form (chalrv01.cre) in the Pocket Plane (the fifth test). I'm not sure if that counts as a permanent death of a god who's supposedly already dead, but it's likely he wouldn't be quick to remateralise after that.

I believe that what you face in the Pocket Plane challenges are self created ones, so the avatar you face is created by the PC or the PC's essence. A fitting final battle would not be with an avatar, but with Bhaal himself and he should appear big (like a Fire Giant or even a Dragon in scale).

[RavenSW]

The problem with making him a full God as opposed to an Avatar would be the expectation. There is no "God" in the game itself so it would have to be crated, and if it fails expectations it wont really do it for most people. That might be why the makers didn't attempt it themselves.

[guguma]

The problem with making him a full God as opposed to an Avatar would be the expectation. There is no "God" in the game itself so it would have to be crated, and if it fails expectations it wont really do it for most people. That might be why the makers didn't attempt it themselves.

Dear All,

First and foremost, I am seeing mixed replies here but there are some people in favor so I am saying this again "If anyone ,somewhat experienced in modding, would be willing to help me with this idea to make it real I am willing to start this project (possibly in the summer since I am terribly busy at the moment)" so please send me a PM.

Gods are always seen as a manifestation (avatar) in a familiar form (humanoid, monster etc.) so it would have to be a image, we have met slayer and the ravager enough already and the humanoid fighter form of Bhaal that we see in the dreams is not that godly I must say. I was thinking that the Cambion (was it Aesgeroth who gave us the deck of many things) image would be fitting since it is larger than Your usual humanoid but it would not be satisfactory either because we have already seen them as Cambions. I do not think that a Giant would do since they have that "me smash" look on their faces. Creating a Godlike character would not be so hard and it can be fine tuned to fit people's expectations since we are not going to sell the mod it does not have to be perfect to begin with . Think about "M" in the planar sphere mod, it is quite godlike.

I would expect Bhaal to possess both magic and combat skills being a God, and thanks to Near Infinity it is almost possible to create any spell or special effect we would like so there is no reason why we should not be able to create a satisfactory God.

What concerns me is the "Lore", I rechecked and before we proceed to the throne, there is a scene with Solar where she summons Melissan, and there she specifically tells us that Bhaal entrusted only one of his deathstalkers (Melissan) with access to his throne and the ritual and we see the appearance of Bhaal complaining about no rituals have been started yet where Melissan says "Remain dust, my foolish God".

So either we will make it so that Bhaal actually did instruct some other people with this information and we will have them summon Bhaal after Melissan is defeated once (which may be absurd since <CHARNAME> is still there and possibly would not let them do so), or that entire cutscene with Solar and Melissan will be removed and we will have Bhaal just appear after Melissan is defeated once. Of course how he appeared will have to be explained. But still it makes sense to me since his essence still exists and even his Throne exists there must be some part of Bhaal somewhere to accomplish this.

We will need someone to explain Melissan's true intentions before we enter the throne, and someone to talk to us and give us the choice of becoming a god or getting rid of the essence after everything is taken care of, and I was planning that it could be the manifestation of another God (say Helm since he is all vigilant and has a huge eye that sees everything and very neutral). So where Solar is necessary we will replace her with Helm instead.

It would be totally awesome to have a movie cutscene introducing Bhaal to the scene after Melissan is defeated, where Bhaal basically explains everything and mops the floor of his throne with Melissan for a while, it would be not hard to do at all from a modding perspective but since I am only capable of drawing stick figures (albeit horribly drawn stick figures) it sounds too hard for me to even imagine a movie (making a movie = magic for me)(still it would be awesome).

I am glad to hear that some people are warm to the idea and that we are discussing if it would make sense or not, given how wonderfully structured a game BG is my main concern would be to get the explanations right.

Thanks for listening.

Edited by guguma, 20 April 2011 - 06:33 PM.

[Zyraen]

So far Bane has made a comeback, and Myrkul has enough essence stored up somewhere other than an astral plane repository . I don't see why Bhaal couldn't have misled Melissan to trick her into letting her be possessed by him (and her spirit "eternally" tormented and trapped in her body) by trying to take over his essence. Think about it, if you are pumped with enough water, you essentially become water / explode. And water isn't even Sentient.

Much as a I hate Solar, bringing Helm into it will be far worse. The way I see it is this
- you can't kill Melissan cuz she is maybe, 80% God (ie 80% Bhaal) at the time you fight her
- Gods can only be killed by other Gods
- Solar is just a pretty fucked up way of ending something that we muscled into on the first place. Helm would just add a deeper dimension of "yo, godling, you suck so I'm here as the big daddy to clean up this shit"

That said, I'm probably one of the laziest modders out there in terms of how to implement something. FYI we can use as reference a few things, namely that there is are 2 other Gods that manifests as Avatars in the game, one being lumpy ugly Rillifane, the other being Cyric. I would much rather go with Cyric over Rillifane. Even if Bhaal is dribbling big sword fellow (aka same avatar as Sarevok in Ascension) that would still be coherent. Of course Ravager is also a must have, but probably not as an introductory gloating.

So.. that solves 2 of the potentially hairiest problems
- no Avatar change
- no plot change

The only last bit of interest is where does he spawn in, what are his powers, etc etc? Being a lazy prick, introducing him as Melissan is weakened and dipping herself back in Bhaal juices (literally), would just have her as the vessel of his rebirth. I would take plenty of satisfaction knowing that she exploded into chunks of flesh, replaced by him, or that he simply took over her body. The change is cosmetic, Bhaal shows up, and also putting to rest the remaining 2-3 siblings of yours (come on, he wants the essence right?)

He does a brief exposition claiming that he expected her betrayal all along, and thanks you (mockingly, the usual) for facilitating his return. He isn't fully himself yet though, thanks to you, so kindly fall over and die.

Abilities, I would like him to be a mage but that wouldn't fit. It would be more poetic if he summons up a few spellcasters while he goes Ravager + Bone Blade + lots of things all over. Or well, something else, so that it doesn't become an anticlimactic rip-off of ToB work. Perhaps an adaptation of Irenicus' final fight for Tactics?

So.. how do you kill a God? if Cyric's ascension is anything to go by, +5 +6 +7 weapons don't cut it. Well simple enough, you have to literally use your own essence of Bhaal and colaesce it into a weapon, ala Godsbane (for those lore pple). Of course, it should simply be named something else cool, maybe not have many cool abilities. And in the end, Bhaal has to be struck by Godsbane to die.

That's it, no more patronising ~Enough playing, boys and girls!~ from Solar.
Minimal (yawn) work.

Thoughts?

Edited by Zyraen, 20 April 2011 - 08:38 PM.

[RavenSW]

Certainly sounds like a solid plan. Be interesting to see in come to be.

[Miloch]

That said, I'm probably one of the laziest modders out there in terms of how to implement something. FYI we can use as reference a few things, namely that there is are 2 other Gods that manifests as Avatars in the game, one being lumpy ugly Rillifane, the other being Cyric. I would much rather go with Cyric over Rillifane. Even if Bhaal is dribbling big sword fellow (aka same avatar as Sarevok in Ascension) that would still be coherent. Of course Ravager is also a must have, but probably not as an introductory gloating.

So.. that solves 2 of the potentially hairiest problems
- no Avatar change
- no plot change

The only last bit of interest is where does he spawn in, what are his powers, etc etc?

A lot of this is documented (in e.g. Faiths & Avatars). Actually, both the Ravager and Slayer avatar forms of Bhaal are depicted wrongly in-game. The game's Ravager is closer to the native Kazgoroth form (a large beast-like being, though it could take the form of pretty much anything it came across).

Bhaal's Avatar (Thief 32, Fighter 27)
Bhaal rarely appeared in avatar form, but when he did in urban settings he typically assumed a form known as the Slayer. The Slayer looked like a human male corpse with a feral face, ivory-white skin, and deep lacerations that endlessly wept black ichor that vanished before it struck anything.

Bhaal manifested in rural settings, such as the Moonshaes, as a giant of a man. The Ravager, as this form was known, as over 30 feet tall, with long, tough sinews, a flowing beard and mane of hair, eyes that glowed with the flames of Gehenna, a face twisted in a grimace of supernatural hatred, and two 7-foot-long curved horns protruding from his forehead.

AC -4; MV 15; HP 217; THAC0 -6; #AT 5/2 (Slayer) or 2/1* (Ravager)
Dmg 1d4+16 (bone dagger, +12 Str, +2 spec. bonus in dagger - Slayer) or
1d10+12/1d10+12 (+12 Str - Ravager)
MR 90%; SZ M (6 feet, Slayer) or G (30 feet, Ravager)
Str 24, Dex 24, Con 22, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 17
Spells: None
Saves PPDM 3, RSW 4, PP 4, BW 4, Sp 5

* The Ravager made two sets of twin punches per round for a total of four fist strikes and could also gore or rake certain opponents with his horns.

So his true form might be closer to what Chev described - like a giant with demonic qualities. In his native form, he could probably shift between Slayer/Ravager etc. at will. It goes on and on about special attacks, other forms and whatnot. You might have to adjust it for gameplay - obviously you'd want this to be the toughest battle ever without being totally unbeatable. As you can see, he has no real spells (being primarily a F/T) but plenty of special abilities like that of animating dead indefinitely with being immune to undead himself. Anyone who died fighting him would probably become an undead being under his control (like a Restoration/Charm effect at 1hp). Immune to most magic, can only be hit by +4 or better and regenerates 5 HP per round.

I think the idea has merit, but the main difficulty would not be with the avatar, but doing all the scripting, abilities and effects to get all that to work. Given that it's only one battle though (and other mods have overhauled all battles in practically the whole game) that shouldn't be tough for someone who's familiar with that sort of thing. Or for that matter, it shouldn't be too tough for a non-modder to pick it up by focusing just on a single battle. Sure, you could also change the plot, but why bother? A supremely evil being (even a lawful evil one) would go to any lengths of deception to preserve or restore himself - look at the lengths he went through (no pun intended) to sire all the Bhaalspawn after all. So that could explain all but the hairiest plot inconsistencies.

[guguma]

So far Bane has made a comeback, and Myrkul has enough essence stored up somewhere other than an astral plane repository . I don't see why Bhaal couldn't have misled Melissan to trick her into letting her be possessed by him (and her spirit "eternally" tormented and trapped in her body) by trying to take over his essence. Think about it, if you are pumped with enough water, you essentially become water / explode. And water isn't even Sentient.

Much as a I hate Solar, bringing Helm into it will be far worse. The way I see it is this
- you can't kill Melissan cuz she is maybe, 80% God (ie 80% Bhaal) at the time you fight her
- Gods can only be killed by other Gods
- Solar is just a pretty fucked up way of ending something that we muscled into on the first place. Helm would just add a deeper dimension of "yo, godling, you suck so I'm here as the big daddy to clean up this shit"

Why we cannot kill Melissan is because she always makes a stupid move with her weapon to knock us all off and jump into the essences, which is pretty lame, she cannot even contain the essences within properly so she is %80 god and with time the percentage decreases.

Bhaal will not retain his full power when we are battling, and <CHARNAME> is almost godlike anyway, that is the only explanation of lesser the bhaalspawn the more powerful the remaining ones become. Bhaal will be powerful, but <CHARNAME> is also powerful.

I did not think of Helm in that manner, Helm will just show up 2 times. 1. He will explain Melissan's intentions (just explain, otherwise if You did not finish the game before it would be totally meaningless surprise to see Melissan there). And after we actually kill Bhaal, where he will just ask us what to do. he will not have any power over the situation, so he will not be the big daddy.

That said, I'm probably one of the laziest modders out there in terms of how to implement something. FYI we can use as reference a few things, namely that there is are 2 other Gods that manifests as Avatars in the game, one being lumpy ugly Rillifane, the other being Cyric. I would much rather go with Cyric over Rillifane. Even if Bhaal is dribbling big sword fellow (aka same avatar as Sarevok in Ascension) that would still be coherent. Of course Ravager is also a must have, but probably not as an introductory gloating.

So.. that solves 2 of the potentially hairiest problems
- no Avatar change
- no plot change

Giving Cyric's image to Bhaal would be ultra ironic , then we are left with Cambion image vs Big sword guy. I personally find Cambion image cool, because they are big and intimidating and they also have big swords.

The only last bit of interest is where does he spawn in, what are his powers, etc etc? Being a lazy prick, introducing him as Melissan is weakened and dipping herself back in Bhaal juices (literally), would just have her as the vessel of his rebirth. I would take plenty of satisfaction knowing that she exploded into chunks of flesh, replaced by him, or that he simply took over her body. The change is cosmetic, Bhaal shows up, and also putting to rest the remaining 2-3 siblings of yours (come on, he wants the essence right?)

He does a brief exposition claiming that he expected her betrayal all along, and thanks you (mockingly, the usual) for facilitating his return. He isn't fully himself yet though, thanks to you, so kindly fall over and die.

Abilities, I would like him to be a mage but that wouldn't fit. It would be more poetic if he summons up a few spellcasters while he goes Ravager + Bone Blade + lots of things all over. Or well, something else, so that it doesn't become an anticlimactic rip-off of ToB work. Perhaps an adaptation of Irenicus' final fight for Tactics?

So.. how do you kill a God? if Cyric's ascension is anything to go by, +5 +6 +7 weapons don't cut it. Well simple enough, you have to literally use your own essence of Bhaal and colaesce it into a weapon, ala Godsbane (for those lore pple). Of course, it should simply be named something else cool, maybe not have many cool abilities. And in the end, Bhaal has to be struck by Godsbane to die.

That's it, no more patronising ~Enough playing, boys and girls!~ from Solar.
Minimal (yawn) work.

Thoughts?

I would agree with the idea that Bhaal uses Melissan and possesses her, but please not in her image . I was thinking (given how naive Bhaal is, he is always surprised at something and rages) he would offer You another choice, he can thank you for your help (not very fitting for Bhaal I agree but...) in the downfall of Melissan and kindly ask for your essence promising you a totally awesome mortal life, and rage when we disagree, (now this is so fitting for the good old naive Bhaal).

He can have looots of hit points and turn to ravager when he is desperate, I do not think Cyric's ascension is comparable to <CHARNAME> ,since <CHARNAME> is already godlike, I do not know about Cyric but he was a mortal when he slayed Bhaal right, just because Bhaal has more essences he will be powerful but still <CHARNAME> is not Your regular adventurer.