7 replies to this topic

[-JR-]

Valygar. If I remember right, it's stated that he is of noble Amnian descent. Yet Amn seems to be, what did we decide, Moorish Spain? More on this later, but in my opinion, Moors at their darkest would probably not share Valygar's appearance. He looks to me to be of mixed African and Arabic heritage. I would like to get some opinions on this, to sort it out in my own head due to A) my obsessive compulsive nature, B) my desire for producing in-depth fanfiction, and C) my life's recent monotonous twist.

There are probably a few different questions here. If you think it is indeed incongruous, do you think his appearance should be changed? If not, what do you think the story behind it could be? What version of the presented stories do you prefer in your own... personal-canon?

The underlying issue would be the the appearance of the races of Toril, something that is less mercurial than the aforementioned ideas, yet still not set in stone. For those not familiar, they correspond significantly to the races of Earth, and even when the don't, it's often most prudent to describe them in terms of comparable existing races (Persian architecture, English armor, Japanese weaponry, Egyptian religion, African hair, etc). In this setting, cultural similarities usually but not always correlate to racial similarities. I don't have access to the source books, and I'm probably not alone in that, so any assistance is as appreciated as always.

Assuming we are looking at Moor-controlled Iberia (something that is still open for debate):
Pictures from the Wikipedia article on the Moors
As seen here, both a "self-depiction by the Muslims in Iberia" (left) and a picture of a decapitated Moor created by opponents (right) portray most of them as quite pale. Not hard evidence by any means, but a possibility. Also, the residents of Carthage, a previous North African empire that influenced both the Moors and Iberia, have similarly appeared whitish in a majority of the historical artwork I've seen. And most statues and pictures of Hannibal I've seen have afforded him a rather white/Mediterranean look. Not that I'm picturing the majority of Amnians as definitively pale, but this sheds further doubt on Valygar's lineage being pure Amnian.

Personally, I'm attached to his current appearance, and don't wish to see it changed. The easiest suggestion would be that his father's father had married a Chultan or some such, and his mother was half-Calishite. But this still presents issues. While there in some degree of unexpected enlightenment among Faerun's common (especially adventuring) population, the nobles seem as bloodline-purity-focused as they were on Earth. There's a significant chance that his family's notorious curse overshadowed such trivial cultural issues, but it's worth thinking about.

Any other ideas on any of this?

[Miloch]

To take up the definitive source again (a 3rd edition source as it turns out, but consistent with and more descriptive than 2nd edition sources), Races of Faerûn describes the people of Amn as being of 65% Tethyrian stock (something like "proto-Celtic" or Celtiberian from the sound of it), 30% Calishite and 4% Chondathan. Those of Calimshan have similar blood, only more Calishite blood (52%) as one might expect. (So yes, Amn is something like medieval northern/central Spain whereas Calimshan is more like Moorish Spain or Morocco.) So there's actually no such thing as a "pureblooded Amnian" (they're largely either Calishite or Tethyrian or mixed). All this makes Valygar most likely to be predominantly of Calishite blood.

Human, Calishite
Although all natives of Calimshan are known as Calishites, only those whose ancestry dates back ot the slaves brought from other worlds thousands of years ago are considered members of this ethnic group. Calishites are a bit shorter and of slighter build than other humans. Their skin is dusky brown, and their hair and eyes are most commonly of that shade as well.

Apparently, Calishites originated in Zakhara (and evidently Earth prior to that - clearly there must be "stargates" buried in Zakhara and Mulhorand ):

Human, Zakharan
Zakhara is considered a continent in its own right, not unlike Faerun or Kara-Tur, although all three continents are physically connected. The Land of Fate is home to the Zakharans, relatively short, brown-skinned, dark-haired humans who speak Midani... at least two groups of Zakharan humans have migrated to Faerun by means of portals and are found in large numbers in the western lands in the form of the Bedine (aka "Bedouin") and Calishites.

I'd be willing to believe Valygar could also have Chultan ancestry, if there's a good story behind it that's not contradicted elsewhere.

Human, Chultan
The Jungles of Chult are home to tall, ebony-skinned humans who migrated north to the Chultan peninsula millennia ago from a great island in the southern seas of Abeir-Toril southeast of Maztica and southwest of Zakhara.

I wouldn't see him as having more than a quarter of such blood though (he's not "ebony-skinned" after all). Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in medieval depictions of the Moors, any more than in modern productions of "Othello" which almost invariably depict him as "black." Moreover, the Moors were, as you suggest for Valygar, of mixed Arab, African and Berber stock - none of whom are particularly "pale" (see also what I said in the Rashemi thread about ancient vs. modern complexions). Also, Carthage isn't a good comparison either. Originally a Phoenician colony, then a Roman state, the Vandals (a Scandinavian people) conquered it before it finally became a "Moorish" or Arabic state (modern Tunisia).

[-JR-]

To take up the definitive source again (a 3rd edition source as it turns out, but consistent with and more descriptive than 2nd edition sources), Races of Faerûn describes the people of Amn as being of 65% Tethyrian stock (something like "proto-Celtic" or Celtiberian from the sound of it), 30% Calishite and 4% Chondathan. Those of Calimshan have similar blood, only more Calishite blood (52%) as one might expect. (So yes, Amn is something like medieval northern/central Spain whereas Calimshan is more like Moorish Spain or Morocco.) So there's actually no such thing as a "pureblooded Amnian" (they're largely either Calishite or Tethyrian or mixed). All this makes Valygar most likely to be predominantly of Calishite blood.

I'd already addressed at the accepted cultural mixing within Amnian culture, don't know why I didn't go further than considering the option of increased acceptance of intraspecies mixed blood there. This is good; removing the necessity of referencing a second anomaly will make his story simpler, and therefor easier to accept.

I was actually just about to ask about Tethyr. In light of our darker-Khalid discussion, I was wondering about Jahiera. Celtiberian. Iberian Celts, right? She's probably fine.

Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in medieval depictions of the Moors, any more than in modern productions of "Othello" which almost invariably depict him as "black." Moreover, the Moors were, as you suggest for Valygar, of mixed Arab, African and Berber stock - none of whom are particularly "pale" (see also what I said in the Rashemi thread about ancient vs. modern complexions). Also, Carthage isn't a good comparison either. Originally a Phoenician colony, then a Roman state, the Vandals (a Scandinavian people) conquered it before it finally became a "Moorish" or Arabic state (modern Tunisia).

I already stated that Carthage, despite almost directly preceding the Moors, was little more than something to be glanced at.

I'd be willing to believe Valygar could also have Chultan ancestry, if there's a good story behind it that's not contradicted elsewhere.

So we've established that this one is somewhat sound. I was thinking no more than a quarter 'African,' as well. Valygar's big, like the Chultans; might be able to make some kind of an argument for that above the other Toril-African races. I was beginning to wonder, though, about Halruaa. What does your book say about them, color-wise? If I'm right that they are considerably dark, it could be used to explain both his appearance and the fact that his mother decided to take to magic, despite knowledge of the curse. Simpler explanations are usually better.

[Miloch]

I was actually just about to ask about Tethyr. In light of our darker-Khalid discussion, I was wondering about Jahiera. Celtiberian. Iberian Celts, right? She's probably fine.

Celtiberians were the predominant ethnic group in what is now Spain (prior to the Roman and Moorish conquests) - a hybrid of Celt and Iberian people (similar Indo-European groups, probably fair-skinned and dark-haired from genetic evidence).

As for Tethyrians, here is the obligatory quote from Races of Faerun (you may as well just buy this book since you seem to be occupied with such questions ):

Human, Tethyrian
The Sword Coast has long been home to native human tribes who intermingled with wave upon wave on immigrants, whether they arrived as conquerors or refugees. In recent centuries, these disparate groups have gradually coalesced into a relatively new ethnic group known as Tethyrians, occupying a vast territory stretching from Calimshan to Silverymoon and from the Sea of Swords to the Sea of Fallen Stars... As Tethyrian culture is a melting pot of Calishite, Chondathan, Illuskan, and Low Netherese, Tethyrians are tolerant of and confortable with members of other ethnic groups, with the notable exceptions of upper class Calhishites and, to a lesser extent, Mulan of Thayan descent. In Calimshan, Tethyrians compose the bulk of the lower classes and have long been discriminated against by the largely Calishite upper classes...

Tethyrians are of medium build and height, although taller and broader in build than most Calishites. Their skin tends to have a dusky [there's that word again] hue, although on average they are increasingly fairer in complexion the farther north one travels along the Sword Coast, reflecting a decreasing fraction of Calishite heritage and an increasing fraction of Illuskan and Low Netherese ancestry. Tethyrian hair and eye color varies widely, with brown hair and blue eyes being most common.

So uh, I guess that makes Jaheira's appearance "ok" depending on her elven heritage. For that matter, is it mentioned anywhere what type of elven blood Jaheira and Khalid have? I would guess moon elf offhand (the most common type) unless there is in fact a specific mention of a different type.

Incidentally, the primary constituent of Tethyrian blood, at least along the central Sword Coast (Baldur's Gate and to a lesser extent, Athkatla) is probably Talfiric:

Human, Talfir
Elven writings dating back to the Crown Wars mention a dark-haired, fair-skinned human tribe in the heart of the great forest of Shantel Othreier. The Talfir were the original human inhabitants of the Chionthar river valley in the Western Heartlands.

I was beginning to wonder, though, about Halruaa. What does your book say about them, color-wise?

It doesn't directly, though it says they're direct descendants of survivors from fallen Netheril, about whom it says:

Human, Netherese
Netheril was founded in -3859 DR by dark-haired, fair-skinned humans who dwelt along the shores of the Narrow Sea, a body of water now lost beneath the sands of Anauroch.

So similar to the Talfir, if not related to them. I don't know if we would go so far as to call them "Celts" but not far from that in appearance (though far from Valygar in appearance). His grandmother could just as (if not more) easily have been a Chultan witch, no?

Edited by Miloch, 22 March 2011 - 02:34 PM.

[-JR-]

(you may as well just buy this book since you seem to be occupied with such questions

I just spent my last dollar on a sandwich for dinner.

So uh, I guess that makes Jaheira's appearance "ok" depending on her elven heritage. For that matter, is it mentioned anywhere what type of elven blood Jaheira and Khalid have? I would guess moon elf offhand (the most common type) unless there is in fact a specific mention of a different type.

It's the most common outside of elven homelands, and more open to intermingling/interbreeding with other races, so I would call that a safe assumption. And they might look strange if they were members of the less human-colored elven subraces. (gold eyes, green hair, etc)

It doesn't directly, though it says they're direct descendants of survivors from fallen Netheril, about whom it says:

Human, Netherese
Netheril was founded in -3859 DR by dark-haired, fair-skinned humans who dwelt along the shores of the Narrow Sea, a body of water now lost beneath the sands of Anauroch.

So similar to the Talfir, if not related to them. I don't know if we would go so far as to call them "Celts" but not far from that in appearance (though far from Valygar in appearance).

Hm. I seem to recall having been angrily attacked for racism and Eurocentrism when it became obvious to someone that I was 'unaware' that Halruaans were 'black.' Not on this forum. Guess I was right the first time around.

His grandmother could just as (if not more) easily have been a Chultan witch, no?

Easily could have been, as there is some genetic transfer of skill in magic. I just figured that the near-universal magical talent of Halruuans would be, again, simpler.

Yeah, Chultan would probably be the best choice, unless we have an expert on African facial features to pick apart (probably unintentional) patterns and relate them to strongly correlated ethnic groups of Toril.

[Miloch]

So uh, I guess that makes Jaheira's appearance "ok" depending on her elven heritage. For that matter, is it mentioned anywhere what type of elven blood Jaheira and Khalid have? I would guess moon elf offhand (the most common type) unless there is in fact a specific mention of a different type.

It's the most common outside of elven homelands, and more open to intermingling/interbreeding with other races, so I would call that a safe assumption. And they might look strange if they were members of the less human-colored elven subraces. (gold eyes, green hair, etc)

A closer reading of Races of Faerûn suggests wood elves are more common to Tethyr than moon elves, and are the only elven subspecies I can find mentioned as frequent in that region. The difference in their appearance would be:

Elf, Moon
(Silver Elf)
The most common of the elven subraces on Faerûn are the moon elves. They have fair skin, sometimes tinged with blue, and hair of silver-white, black, or blue; humanlike colors are somewhat rare. Their eyes are blue or green, with gold flecks.

Elf, Wood
(Copper Elf)
The wood elves are among the most numerous of Faerûn's elven people... these people have coppery skin tinged with green, and brown, green, or hazel eyes. Hair is usually brown or black, occasionally blond or coppery-red.

So the latter actually sounds more reasonable for Jaheira's and Khalid's heritage in any case. At least wood elf parentage gives them a chance for inheriting "humanlike" hair colour if their appearances aren't solely a result of human blood. But I guess we should start a new topic for that if it goes anywhere, as it could get "contentious" (though I think we're actually in agreement on most of the other points here).

[Yovaneth]

Just to add my two pennies regarding the pictures: Moors = Berbers = frequent blond hair and blue eyes and light skins.

-Y-

[Miloch]

Damn Vandals.

I don't know if "frequent blond hair and blue eyes" accurately describes the pre-invasion Berber ethnotype, but there is evidence that Vandals could well have taken part in the Moorish conquest of Spain, which happened not long after the fall of their kingdom in North Africa.

The most part of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers.

However, I'm not aware of such a parallel in Realms lore (of, say, an Illuskan infiltration of Calimshan).