11 replies to this topic

[-JR-]

Miloch, it is time for us to settle this once and for all. What is/are the earth counterpart(s) of the Rashemi? It may be a fight to the death, but rest assured that whoever survives, both of us will have our honor restored.

In all seriousness though, This probably isn't a debate that will ever be completely solved. Neither side has overwhelming evidence, and my points are numerous and disorganized. I think I have many more (not necessarily better) ideas, so after Miloch presents his main argument, I'll go through them a few at a time, and we can debate/debunk them and flesh out our opinions.

I already know the things he'll bring up, but I'll let him be the one to give voice to them. Miloch?

Edited by -JR-, 19 March 2011 - 04:42 PM.

[Miloch]

Whoa, wait... you want to start a debate with me, but want me to list my arguments so you can debunk them? If you're starting it, shouldn't that be the other way around? (Plus, I want to be able to run off and laugh when you cite "NWN" and "someone's novel" as "canon sources" .)

Fine, I'll 'umour you. I vaguely recall such a thread on G3 about this but couldn't find it, so I'll just repost the source material since I'd saved some of it locally (incidentally, you weren't "Randall" or some such in that thread, were you?).

Actually, I object more to Minsc's baldness (self-inflicted apparently) than I do his skintone.

Human, Rashemi
Descended from the nomadic tribes that fought and won the Orcgate Wars and later built the empire of Raumathar, the Rashemi are the most numerous human ethnic group on the Priador plateau...

Most Rashemi average about five and a half feet in height, with stout and muscular builds. Most are dusky of skin and dark of eye, with thick black hair. Rashemi males are unusually hirsute and often sport bushy black beards. Although handsome, many seem almost ursine in nature. Baldness is almost unknown among Rashemi males, although inhabitants of Thay are known to shave all body hair in imitation of the ruling Mulan. Female Rashemi wear their black hair long, often in elaborate braids.
(Races of Faerûn, p. 99)

I'll include a closely-related ethnic description, that of the Raumathar people:

Human, Raumiviran
Descended from the inhabitants of the great empire of Raumathar, the Raumvirans retain little of their former glory... Physically, Raumvirans bear a close resemblance to the Rashemi, indicative of centuries of ties between the two groups. Although taller on average than their western neighbors, the Raumvirans are also generally stout and muscular, with dark eyes and thick black hair. Raumvirans are generally of lighter hue than the Rashemi, evidence of significant Sossrim heritage dating back to the height of their long-fallen empire. (p. 108)

92% of the inhabitants of Rashemen are of Rashemi ethnicity, 6% Nars and 1% Tuigan.
65% of the inhabitants of Thay are Rashemi, 30% Mulan and 2% Tuigan. (p. 111)

This is why Edwin's appearance is off also. Most likely he's Mulan, since most Red Wizards are (and very few are Rashemi). Moreover, he has the stereotypical Mulan superiority complex.

Human, Mulan
Mulan are generally tall, slim, and sallow-skinned with eyes of hazel or brown. They lack much body hair, and many, including all nobles, shave any hair that they do have. Hair color on an unshaved Mulan ranges from black to dark brown.

Here's a typical Mulan and Rashemi (also from Races of Faerûn):

The Mulan and Mulhorand people are basically "Egyptian" and Unther = Sumer (even the deity names are the same). The Mulan garb above is an obvious Egyptian rip-off. I'm not sure there is an exact "Earth" counterpart to the Rashemi. Based on descriptions, I'm leaning toward putting them somewhere in central or southwest Asia. Their garb would suggest that as well. Since Raumathar controlled an empire rivalling Mulhorand and Unther, perhaps they were something akin to the Akkadians, Hurrians or Khazars.

For those who don't think there's much correspondence between Toril and Earth, think again:

Not an exact correspondence, but not even an attempt to disguise some of the parallels. Is that Japan and Korea I see around that eastern body of water called... the Yellow Sea?

[-JR-]

Well this is anticlimactic. Either your opinion has changed, or there was a massive misunderstanding the first time around. I'd always thought you were arguing them as African, while I was arguing an Rus-Scythia (central-western and northern Asia) sort of thing.

Congratulations, Miloch, you've killed fun.

If you're starting it, shouldn't that be the other way around?

Wanted to see if you'd play ball, and didn't want to throw out a million different points if you intended to lead with one or two. Also was referring to us debunking my ideas, since they were more numerous but less concrete. Your variety of evidence can't be proven incorrect; only the interpretation of it could be changed.

So... what now? Khalid needing to be darker was obvious. (let me know when you're done with that?) I could open up a weigh-in thread for the Valygar issues we discussed way back?

[Miloch]

Well this is anticlimactic. Either your opinion has changed, or there was a massive misunderstanding the first time around. I'd always thought you were arguing them as African, while I was arguing an Rus-Scythia (central-western and northern Asia) sort of thing.

I don't recall I ever argued for them being unquestionably "African"; however, they are more closely tied to "Egyptian" Thay/Mulholrand and "Sumerian" Unther than "European" Western Faerûn, so I'll still "play ball" if it humours you.

I had anticipated (and perhaps even considered) a "Rus/Scythian" argument, but reject either interpretation:
1. The early Rus' (aka "Varangians") were undeniably Scandinavian (to wit, Vikings from Sweden). They don't fit the Rashemi description from Races of Faerûn.
2. The Scythians had "blue or green eye color and light hair common" thanks to modern genetic tests on their remains. Even mummified Scythians found as far east as China or Mongolia had blonde or reddish hair.
3. Even proposing an admixture of either such group with others doesn't fit the bill. The people of Rashemen are a very homogenous group as stated above (92% Rashemi). Even the largest minority amongst them (the Nars at 6%) isn't terribly different ethnically (perhaps something like "Huns"):

Human, Nar
Nars are short and stocky, with darkly tanned skin tones and straight, raven black hair, usually worn to the shoulders. They are some of the finest horsemen in Faerun, and famed breeders of the legendary Nar heavy horse. (p. 107)

I'm hesitant to label the Rashemi as "Turkic" since this encompasses a wide swath of people on Earth ranging from northeastern Siberia all the way to modern Turkey. Moreover, most modern Turks and Siberians would not fit the description either. However, in ancient times this group may have fit the bill - either some group I mentioned like the Khazars or some pre-Turkic group like the Hurrians or Akkadians. For the latter, I'm thinking more of the forebears of the Rashemi, the Raumathar, who were contemporary with Mulhorand/Egypt and Sumer/Unther after all (the Turks, as such, were not).

Someone (Deva as it turns out) commented in my "adjusted portraits" thread that Minsc's ethnotype should perhaps be close to that of the Uzbeks or Kazakhs. I think I'd agree with this, with two minor reservations:
1. This should exclude Mongol characteristics in such populations. Rashemen has a very small admixture (1%) of Tuigan (aka "Mongol") blood.
2. In ancient times, Central Asians (and most sun-exposed populations in general) most likely had darker complexions, as they spent more time outdoors (certainly "adventurers" like Minsc fall in this category).

[-JR-]

I don't recall I ever argued for them being unquestionably "African"

The source of my confusion was somewhat based your altered portrait of Minsc. You made him darker than Valygar, a man who is commonly accepted to be somewhat Toril-African, and edited Valygar's hair and beard onto him.

Similarly, since your initial presentation of "dusky" description, I'd never thought the Rashemi have was close to white in color. I do, however, look at the culture, full of Scandinavian tradition and pseudo-Germanic/Slavic/Scandinavian terminology, and think there might be something to it. Berserkers are revered. The leader of the country is named Dyervolk. Wikipedia lists "sjorl cheese" as an iconic export. I can probably find numerous other examples without even buying or Googling the non-canonical Neverwinter Nights II you referenced, which apparently(?) takes a strongly modern-Russian stance.

however, they are more closely tied to "Egyptian" Thay/Mulholrand and "Sumerian" Unther than "European" Western Faerûn, so I'll still "play ball" if it humours you.

Well this isn't something I'm completely closed to, so let's just... toss ideas around?

Scythia was a bad suggestion. I was casting cursory glance for a historical group similar to the Croats, who, judging from and according to the pure-blooded Croatian immigrant I work with, have black, bristly hair and dark skin, like the book described the Rashemi.

Someone (Deva as it turns out) commented in my "adjusted portraits" thread that Minsc's ethnotype should perhaps be close to that of the Uzbeks or Kazakhs. I think I'd agree with this, with two minor reservations:
1. This should exclude Mongol characteristics in such populations. Rashemen has a very small admixture (1%) of Tuigan (aka "Mongol") blood.
2. In ancient times, Central Asians (and most sun-exposed populations in general) most likely had darker complexions, as they spent more time outdoors (certainly "adventurers" like Minsc fall in this category).

I can see that, and agree that if that were the case, the exclusion of Mongol characteristics would be logical, if not definitive. And yeah, I was picturing everyone having a tan back then, making all of the NPCs a bit darker than their portraits. Even my blonde-haired, blue-eyed English/German girlfriend gets considerably dark from lifeguarding in the summer. Like on Earth, commoners back then wouldn't have the option of being blue blooded.

Furthermore, Elaine Cunningham's high-profile Daughter of the Drow series flat out says that the Rashemi are descended from the Rus, and implies that Toril Rus were literally the same people as Earth Rus, frequently mentioning that they were wanderers from another world. I know you don't like looking to novels for information, but frankly, check out the Forgotten Realms Wikipedia Page on Canon.

Canon, according to Ed Greenwood, is any published source relating to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. This means that if it is for sale in paper form then it is official Realmslore.

[Miloch]

The source of my confusion was somewhat based your altered portrait of Minsc. You made him darker than Valygar

1. Possibly (in the original edit, certainly)

a man who is commonly accepted to be somewhat Toril-African

(2. If by "African" you mean "North African" aka Calishite/"Moorish" then fine - we've already discussed that)

and edited Valygar's hair and beard onto him.

3. Hmm, I dunno... there is an uncanny resemblance perhaps...

I have in fact since edited Minsc several times, including later in that very thread I think. I guess I should update the ones on the server, though I didn't think anyone was really looking at them anymore. It seems every time I get a new computer or monitor and recalibrate it, I'll look at something I did previously and say "Whoa, what the hell was I thinking?" (One reason of several I probably haven't "released" those edits as a mod.) Anyway, these are the latest versions.

I'm not sure I "lightened" Valygar's complexion at all, though I may have toned down the red a tad. Is Minsc darker than him? Dunno, maybe. Can a "Kazakh" be darker than a "Berber"? Sure, why not.

Similarly, since your initial presentation of "dusky" description, I'd never thought the Rashemi have was close to white in color.

Indeed no - quite the opposite in fact, according to Oxford.

dusky (dusk·y)
adjective (duskier, duskiest)
darkish in color:
dusky red
a dusky complexion
dated used in euphemistic or poetic reference to black or other dark-skinned people:
a dusky Moorish maiden

I do, however, look at the culture, full of Scandinavian tradition and pseudo-Germanic/Slavic/Scandinavian terminology, and think there might be something to it. Berserkers are revered.

Yes, and they also like "snow-racing, skiing, wrestling, drinking, and the like" according to Races of Faerun. However, none of these traits are specific to some sort of "pseudo-Germanic/Slavic/Scandinavian" culture; that is just a rather Eurocentric view of things. You could in fact probably say the same about the Sami of Finland, Turkic, Mongolic, Tunguska, Aleuts, Inuits, and so on. Take the snow out of the equation and the list goes even further.

The leader of the country is named Dyervolk.

I can't account for the etymology of FR names. I don't think there would be much substance to such an accounting. I think someone may have even suggested the name "Minsc" is somehow related to the modern capital of Belarus. Rather an absurd suggestion if you ask me.

Wikipedia lists "sjorl cheese" as an iconic export.

So? Wikipedia also says "The first cheese may have been made by people in the Middle East or by nomadic Turkic tribes in Central Asia." As for its vaguely Scandinavian-sounding name (dubious) see previous point.

I was casting cursory glance for a historical group similar to the Croats, who, judging from and according to the pure-blooded Croatian immigrant I work with, have black, bristly hair and dark skin, like the book described the Rashemi.

"Pure-blooded" Croat, eh? Don't want to cast aspersions on your friend's ancestry, but is he sure there aren't some Bosnians in there somewhere? (It would in fact be hard to tell unless he traced all branches of his family back many generations.)

I can probably find numerous other examples without even buying or Googling the non-canonical Neverwinter Nights II you referenced, which apparently(?) takes a strongly modern-Russian stance.

Furthermore, Elaine Cunningham's high-profile Daughter of the Drow series flat out says that the Rashemi are descended from the Rus, and implies that Toril Rus were literally the same people as Earth Rus, frequently mentioning that they were wanderers from another world. I know you don't like looking to novels for information, but frankly, check out the Forgotten Realms Wikipedia Page on Canon.

Canon, according to Ed Greenwood, is any published source relating to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. This means that if it is for sale in paper form then it is official Realmslore.

...

I want to be able to run off and laugh when you cite "NWN" and "someone's novel" as "canon sources" .

(Didn't I preempt this?)

As for the "canon" definition, we've been through that before. (I don't know if "we" means you and I, but it may well have been the case.)

9.5.3. So, are novels canon or aren't they?
Jim Butler gives the official (or canon) answer

Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon. Where two sources contradict one another, a decision needs to be made as to which one should be followed. For game products, that would mean you'd follow a game product over a novel.

See bolded point: in other words Races of Faerûn overrules "Daughter of the Drow" or whatever.

I'm willing to believe that *if* such authors consulted canon sources whilst writing (a very big "if") they confused the actual makeup of people like the "Rus" with Turkic populations in what is now modern Russia (a very big difference). Whatever - they're fiction writers, not ethnographers after all. It doesn't really matter (see bolded point in previous quote).

And another point on that last issue, and one I raised before. So Philip Athans would claim his "Baldur's Gate" novels are "canon," knowing full well they are *novelisations* of video games (as it says on the covers). Does that make his source material, the games themselves, "canon" - indeed even "more canon"? If yes, it raises a whole bunch of other questions - which games, etc. If not, it raises yet another contradiction. (Ultimately, it doesn't really matter - see bolded point above.)

[-JR-]

I can probably find numerous other examples without even buying or Googling the non-canonical Neverwinter Nights II you referenced, which apparently(?) takes a strongly modern-Russian stance.

I want to be able to run off and laugh when you cite "NWN" and "someone's novel" as "canon sources" .

(Didn't I preempt this?)

I suppose I could point to it as a supporting idea, albeit a flawed one, but I can just as easily stand by my original statement that there is no need for it. My claim that I don't intend to use a particular non-canonical source in response to a theory that I am going to do so is the opposite of the point you are trying to make here. I haven't even played the game in question; my computer wouldn't be able to handle it.

Furthermore, Elaine Cunningham's high-profile Daughter of the Drow series flat out says that the Rashemi are descended from the Rus, and implies that Toril Rus were literally the same people as Earth Rus, frequently mentioning that they were wanderers from another world. I know you don't like looking to novels for information, but frankly, check out the Forgotten Realms Wikipedia Page on Canon.

Canon, according to Ed Greenwood, is any published source relating to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. This means that if it is for sale in paper form then it is official Realmslore.

...

I want to be able to run off and laugh when you cite "NWN" and "someone's novel" as "canon sources" .

(Didn't I preempt this?)

Citing the thing that prompted a response doesn't, in itself, invalidate the response. Justification for my thought process ahead.

As for the "canon" definition, we've been through that before. (I don't know if "we" means you and I, but it may well have been the case.)

9.5.3. So, are novels canon or aren't they?
Jim Butler gives the official (or canon) answer

Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon. Where two sources contradict one another, a decision needs to be made as to which one should be followed. For game products, that would mean you'd follow a game product over a novel.

See bolded point: in other words Races of Faerûn overrules "Daughter of the Drow" or whatever.

Not entirely sure that Jim's word trumps the founder of the campaign setting, but since it appears to be a corollary rather than a fully contradictory statement, I'll give it to you. And according to this, the source would override the novel, if and only if it were in opposition to it. I see no reason why my idea of a nation of primarily culturally European people with bristly hair and ursine features who are partially descended from a formerly Scandinavian tribe contradicts the idea of someone with a darker skin tone.

And another point on that last issue, and one I raised before. So Philip Athans would claim his "Baldur's Gate" novels are "canon," knowing full well they are *novelisations* of video games (as it says on the covers). Does that make his source material, the games themselves, "canon" - indeed even "more canon"? If yes, it raises a whole bunch of other questions - which games, etc. If not, it raises yet another contradiction.

According to common thought and your own evidence, the novels in question would completely invalidate the games, and become canon as long as they do not fall in direct opposition to source material. Also, since their publication, they have been cited in source material. Undeniable, and undeniably lamentable.

Can a "Kazakh" be darker than a "Berber"? Sure, why not.

'Why not' would only work if it were being presenting it as an oddity (like a pale or bald Rashemi), not as a trend, which is the impression I had when I made the comment you are responding to. Neither of us really gains ground on this one.

"Pure-blooded" Croat, eh? Don't want to cast aspersions on your friend's ancestry, but is he sure there aren't some Bosnians in there somewhere? (It would in fact be hard to tell unless he traced all branches of his family back many generations.)

Strange, all but a handful of Bosnian immigrants I've known have been as pale as can be. I used to laugh whenever one of them would talk about hating white people (it was high school; lots of immaturity), doubly so the time one with bright blue veins directed it at me when I was tanned darker than Valygar. Could be, though. Yeah, sure. Bosnian, Croatian, Sarmatian, Scythian, whatever word I'm looking for. Similar to the Slavs but with darker skin. Not knowing the name doesn't help my argument, but it certainly doesn't detract from my point; I never claimed to be an ethnologist. Nor does my lack of ability to pin down the second half of the equation when my hypothesis is primarily concerned with the first half.

I do, however, look at the culture, full of Scandinavian tradition and pseudo-Germanic/Slavic/Scandinavian terminology, and think there might be something to it. Berserkers are revered.

Yes, and they also like "snow-racing, skiing, wrestling, drinking, and the like" according to Races of Faerun. However, none of these traits are specific to some sort of "pseudo-Germanic/Slavic/Scandinavian" culture; that is just a rather Eurocentric view of things.

My suggestion that "sjorl" sounds Scandinavian is no more Eurocentric than it is Asian-centric to suggest that the name "Yoshimo" sounds like what it sounds like. But as for Bioware, there is a trend towards this (though I still maintain it is not as extreme as people make it out to be). Wouldn't these claims, however, only strengthen my argument that, when combined with all these minor, supporting arguments, these people might be somewhat based on a European ethnicity?

You could in fact probably say the same about the Sami of Finland, Turkic, Mongolic, Tunguska, Aleuts, Inuits, and so on. Take the snow out of the equation and the list goes even further.

Let's look at your claim from a practical viewpoint, rather than an argumentative one. What are the odds that they're looking at, say, Mongol society when they say describe the pastimes of a berserker-culture as "snow-racing, skiing, wrestling, drinking, and the like"? Just because an argument can be made placing them somewhere else doesn't make it likely. Do I think there's a chance you're 100% correct? Certainly, but I haven't seen sufficient evidence yet.

A few things being ascribed to a solely European culture might be Eurocentricity on my part. However, a Germanic name, a Slavic accent, numerous similar and iconic pastimes, a number of words reminiscent of Nordic earth languages, and references to Scandinavian/Slavic predecessors only serves to reinforce my idea that they are, in fact, a mixed race of partial European lineage. I'll be the first to say that not all of issues these are airtight or even particularly likely (Tethyrian Jaheira's similar accent), but when there are so many of them, and only a few of what are quite possibly nothing more than extrapolated guesstimates based on skin color to hint otherwise, I can't help but think there's something to it.

Yes, and they also like "snow-racing, skiing, wrestling, drinking, and the like" according to Races of Faerun. However, none of these traits are specific to some sort of "pseudo-Germanic/Slavic/Scandinavian" culture

Neither is dark skin specific to Africa, Arabia, Persia, India, North America, South America, Southern Asia, Eastern Asia, or anything else. It's something that needs explanation, not something that provides explanation. Dusky skin is no more an zero-in on their race than the proposition that the name 'Minsc' is a zero-in on them being from Minsk, and much further from pinning down their culture.

Take the snow out of the equation and the list goes even further.

And why should we take snow out of it? So many of the races are directly located in a corresponding climate. Arabs and Persians in deserts, Moors in an arid climate between Arabia and Europe, Africans dwell primarily jungle and savanna, and Japanese living in the quite narrow climate able to support cherry trees. Yes, there are some oddities, but there is also a strong, visible pattern.

-----
A large bullet point of my argument would be that you yourself pointed out the significance of Earth-Toril geographic-cultural parallels. Look at where they are on the map. Right where 'Europe' meets 'Asia.'
-----

A couple of technicalities now.

The leader of the country is named Dyervolk.

I can't account for the etymology of FR names. I don't think there would be much substance to such an accounting.

Why not? While the Sword Coast's English history is well-enough established to have more unusual names visible (as well as less culturally-specific mythology, weapons, etc), there are strong trends towards less variation from their Earth counterparts in non-European nations. See Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc; the less European, the less it strays from real life. Not a particularly strong point, but since Slavic is not particularly iconically western, I think it's sufficient to take a look at. My Volk ancestor was a Hessian, not a Sumerian.

Wikipedia lists "sjorl cheese" as an iconic export.

So? Wikipedia also says "The first cheese may have been made by people in the Middle East or by nomadic Turkic tribes in Central Asia."

This argument doesn't hold water; the first everything was made by people in the Middle East. If one of the only exports mentioned has a Scandinavian-sounding name and was clearly solely theirs, ("The smoky sjorl cheese originated in Rashemen, although foreigners often found it unpleasant.") then it's worth examining. A cheese based argument may sound goofy, but basing something on a vague, one-word description of a skin color that is shared by a multitude of races and cultures is equally singular. I'm too tired to properly organize this, so I'm probably sounding like a bit of a broken record, but again, 'dusky' further opens up options of full or partial non-European influence, it doesn't close down potential full or partial European influence.

[Miloch]

I suppose I could point to it as a supporting idea, albeit a flawed one, but I can just as easily stand by my original statement that there is no need for it. My claim that I don't intend to use a particular non-canonical source in response to a theory that I am going to do so is the opposite of the point you are trying to make here... Citing the thing that prompted a response doesn't, in itself, invalidate the response.

I'm having trouble following some of your comments of this nature. You seem to have this tendency to view or construct everything as a sort of formulaic argument (and no, that's not an attack or an argument either, but an observation). In some cases, comments are just comments.

In this case, I did not claim I "invalidated a response." The question was (if you really wish to view it logically when it was not intended as argument):

"Didn't I preempt this?" Or to rephrase it, "Didn't I rule this out in advance?" And it's a rhetorical question obviously: yes. Inasmuch as I did not give reason, you're entitled to that I guess, so I gave those reasons. But I was hoping by that statement in my first paragraph that this wouldn't devolve into yet another "what is canon?" thread, because that's been done to death elsewhere.

Not entirely sure that Jim's word trumps the founder of the campaign setting, but since it appears to be a corollary rather than a fully contradictory statement, I'll give it to you.

Greenwood is not the sole author of Toril content. In fact Gary Gygax invented Kara-Tur before the "Forgotten Realms" brand was around (later someone thought it'd be cool to slap Kara-Tur down on the Toril setting next fo Faerun). Butler was a creative director for the FR "brand" and a co-author of it along with Greenwood and a host of other folks. So it's a valid comment in itself, and as you say, a corollary. Also a necessary one, because if you make a statement like "everything is canon" you need a strategy to resolve conflicts.

And according to this, the source would override the novel, if and only if it were in opposition to it. I see no reason why my idea of a nation of primarily culturally European people with bristly hair and ursine features who are partially descended from a formerly Scandinavian tribe contradicts the idea of someone with a darker skin tone.

The novel is in opposition to the published game manual, for reasons I stated above. I do so hate repeating myself, but just this once:

I had anticipated (and perhaps even considered) a "Rus/Scythian" argument, but reject either interpretation:
1. The early Rus' (aka "Varangians") were undeniably Scandinavian (to wit, Vikings from Sweden). They don't fit the Rashemi description from Races of Faerûn.
...
3. Even proposing an admixture of either such group with others doesn't fit the bill. The people of Rashemen are a very homogenous group as stated above (92% Rashemi). Even the largest minority amongst them (the Nars at 6%) isn't terribly different ethnically...

Races of Faerun lists the ethnic composition of each region in order of proportion (92% Rashemi, 6% Nars, 1% Tuigan). If there's any constituent to the Rashemi population beyond Tuigan at 1%, such ethnicities would comprise less than 1% of its population.

According to common thought and your own evidence, the novels in question would completely invalidate the games, and become canon as long as they do not fall in direct opposition to source material. Also, since their publication, they have been cited in source material. Undeniable, and undeniably lamentable.

I'm not sure what "common thought" you're referring to, but you're missing my point: the source material (in Athans' case) is a video game with the FR logo. And by Greenwood's definition, it is for sale in paper form (including a manual with NPC portraits and whatnot) making it theoretically "canon" and as source material for the novel, therefore "more canon" as well. But (with Butler's corollary) it doesn't matter if there's a PnP book that contradicts such secondary source material (and in this case, there is) because the PnP book takes precedence.

Can a "Kazakh" be darker than a "Berber"? Sure, why not.

'Why not' would only work if it were being presenting it as an oddity (like a pale or bald Rashemi), not as a trend, which is the impression I had when I made the comment you are responding to. Neither of us really gains ground on this one.

You'll have to restate your point if it's one you expect me to respond to. What I was saying is that I think I got their appearances close to their ethnic descriptions from the PnP material. At any rate, that was my goal - I'm not sure what your is.

Not knowing the name doesn't help my argument, but it certainly doesn't detract from my point; I never claimed to be an ethnologist. Nor does my lack of ability to pin down the second half of the equation when my hypothesis is primarily concerned with the first half.

Again, please restate your point more clearly, if you're making one (also see my first comment above).

My suggestion that "sjorl" sounds Scandinavian is no more Eurocentric than it is Asian-centric to suggest that the name "Yoshimo" sounds like what it sounds like. But as for Bioware, there is a trend towards this (though I still maintain it is not as extreme as people make it out to be). Wouldn't these claims, however, only strengthen my argument that, when combined with all these minor, supporting arguments, these people might be somewhat based on a European ethnicity?

No. You're claiming a word is potentially of a particular ethnic origin because it sounds like it could be. At best, this amounts to fallacious language comparison; at worst, it's false etymology.

There are plenty of similar words in languages that couldn't possibly have been connected closely. And even if one proves such words are undeniably related, that only proves there are similar words in the two languages. It's possible one culture borrowed words from another without necessarily having other cultural similarities - this happens all the time with Earth languages. However, there is no published Rashemi language I know of, so there's no possible way one could conduct a valid comparison of it with any other language. Therefore, any sort of comparison of Rashemi with another language is fallacious by definition (i.e., "Pseudoscientific language comparison is a form of pseudoscholarship that has the objective of establishing historical associations between languages by naive postulations of similarities between them").

Not that I need make another point against this, but I'll cite Occam's Razor (the simplest solution is best). *If* there are "Nordic" words or names in Rashemi (and that's a very big "if" due to my previous argument) then why propose off-world contact as the likeliest reason for it? The Illuskans are already the FR's card-carrying Scandinavians. They're a lot closer to Rashemen than Earth; moreover, they're even known for making forays into distant lands (just like the Vikings). I've actually tried to find canon references to such an Illuskan expedition to Rashemen, but failed. The closest thing I found was a reference that the settled Dambrath on the Great Sea through a portal - a region as far south of Rashemen as the Sword Coast is to the west of it. To get to Rashemen, the Illuskans either would have to have crossed or skirted around both the Great Desert (Anauroch) and the Great Glacier. I'm not saying they could not have done so; however, there's no evidence I can find. In any case, it's remotely possible "Norse" types may have taught the Rashemi berserkergang and how to make fjorl cheese (assuming these are unquestionably and solely "Norse" things, which is doubtful). The main point is that *if* such a group made an impact on the Rashemi (an unfounded "if"), they must have done so without staying behind to become any sort of sizable proportion to the population (1% or more in this case).

Let's look at your claim from a practical viewpoint, rather than an argumentative one. What are the odds that they're looking at, say, Mongol society when they say describe the pastimes of a berserker-culture as "snow-racing, skiing, wrestling, drinking, and the like"?

Any *practical* reason why all of that couldn't've taken place at the court of Genghis Khan? Yes, they had warrior games, snow, mountains, drink and undoubtedly wrestling. (As I've said, however, I'm not arguing a Mongolic origin for the Rashemi - that would be for the Tuigan horde.)

A few things being ascribed to a solely European culture might be Eurocentricity on my part. However, a Germanic name, a Slavic accent, numerous similar and iconic pastimes, a number of words reminiscent of Nordic earth languages, and references to Scandinavian/Slavic predecessors...

I think you'll have to give more examples to construct an actually convincing argument around such examples (canon ones I should hope). Also, see what I said above about fallacious language comparison.

Neither is dark skin specific to Africa, Arabia, Persia, India, North America, South America, Southern Asia, Eastern Asia, or anything else. It's something that needs explanation, not something that provides explanation. Dusky skin is no more an zero-in on their race than the proposition that the name 'Minsc' is a zero-in on them being from Minsk, and much further from pinning down their culture.

If Rashemi culture had "Scandinavian" affinities, wouldn't it say *somewhere* in canon lore that it shares traits with the Illuskans, and propose a possible reason for that? Yet I can't find one.

Take the snow out of the equation and the list goes even further.

And why should we take snow out of it?

We don't need to - Mongols and other central Asians live in snowy, mountainous territories. In fact they excelled at winter tactics even over your blessed Rus:

During the invasion of Kievan Rus, the Mongols used frozen rivers as highways, and winter, the time of year usually off-limits for any major activity due to the intense cold, became the Mongols' preferred time to strike.

A large bullet point of my argument would be that you yourself pointed out the significance of Earth-Toril geographic-cultural parallels. Look at where they are on the map. Right where 'Europe' meets 'Asia.'

This isn't much of an argument in your favour, because it would actually put them somewhere in the Ural Mountains (not far from the Kazakhs) if you overlaid Toril on Earth (and I've never said that would be valid). Moreover, they're immediately due west of the Tuigan lands, which is precisely where Kazakhstan sits in relation to Mongolia.

One last point: if you're claiming a significant "Rus" background for the Rashemi (indeed to the extent the Rashemi *are* the Rus or are directly descended from them), when does your source say this occurred? During the Raumathar Empire or after? Remember, Raumathar was a comtemporary of Toril empires that had known, canon Earth connections: with Mulhorand (ancient Egypt) and Unther (Sumer). If it's before the fall of Raumathar, you'll have to use a time machine as well as a space portal to get the Rus to Raumathar. If it's after, it doesn't make much sense unless the Rus didn't leave much of a genetic imprint on the Rashemi. As stated above, the Rashemi are actually *darker* than the Raumvirans (though otherwise pretty much the same).

This is "fun" I suppose, but it's really starting to seem like argument for argument's sake. I guess you've had your "debate" after all, but you've failed to convince me the Rashemi should look other than the PnP source material depicts them (if that is indeed your purpose).

[GeN1e]

Here's a typical Mulan and Rashemi (also from Races of Faerûn):

Looks very Ukrainian.

[Miloch]

Looks very Ukrainian.

Of Tatar extraction, no doubt.

For the record, the Rus (or Varangians) preceded the Tatars and other Turkic peoples in what is now Russia and the Ukraine by several centuries. By the same token, the occupation of what is now Croatia (or at least Bosnia and Serbia) by the Ottomans (another Turkic people) was a fairly late occurrence. So to say the "Rus" or the "Croats" originally had Turkic features and culture is a bit fallacious.

[-JR-]

[quote name='Miloch' date='23 March 2011 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1300891141' post='511484'][quote name='-JR-' date='22 March 2011 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1300853909' post='511431']I suppose I could point to it as a supporting idea, albeit a flawed one, but I can just as easily stand by my original statement that there is no need for it. My claim that I don't intend to use a particular non-canonical source in response to a theory that I am going to do so is the opposite of the point you are trying to make here...[/quote]I'm having trouble following some of your comments of this nature. You seem to have this tendency to view or construct everything as a sort of formulaic argument (and no, that's not an attack or an argument either, but an observation). In some cases, comments are just comments.[/quote]When you misread comments such as "I don't intend to use X as a source because it's non canon," and try to imply that it is evidence I am abandoning confirmedly canonical sources, it's inevitable that I would address the misconception.

[quote name='Miloch' date='23 March 2011 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1300891141' post='511484'][quote name='-JR-' date='22 March 2011 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1300853909' post='511431']Citing the thing that prompted a response doesn't, in itself, invalidate the response.[/quote]I'm having trouble following some of your comments of this nature. You seem to have this tendency to view or construct everything as a sort of formulaic argument (and no, that's not an attack or an argument either, but an observation). In some cases, comments are just comments.[/quote]When you shut down a legitimate argument by pointing out that you've previously dismissed it without providing a reason, it is inevitable that I would try to entice a reason from you. Your eventual addression of this doesn't invalidate my original response.

And overall, yes, my argument is no more a strong, cohesive, undeniable, driving force than is yours. I'm looking at a multitude of vague cultural hints and a high profile source and claiming that there's strong potential for partial European lineage. You're looking at a more reliable source, but from it all you have to go on is a vague description of skin color, and interperating the other physical characteristics in a way that suits your initial assessment. Like I said in the beginning, it's not probably something that's going to be resolved. The lack of solid evidence either direction will make a vague concensus the best case scenario.[quote name='Miloch' date='23 March 2011 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1300891141' post='511484']This is "fun" I suppose, but it's really starting to seem like argument for argument's sake. I guess you've had your "debate" after all, but you've failed to convince me the Rashemi should look other than the PnP source material depicts them (if that is indeed your purpose).[/quote]It sounds like you're getting bored though, so perhaps we should wind this down.

[quote name='Miloch' date='23 March 2011 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1300891141' post='511484']In this case, I did not claim I "invalidated a response." The question was (if you really wish to view it logically when it was not intended as argument):

"Didn't I preempt this?" Or to rephrase it, "Didn't I rule this out in advance?" And it's a rhetorical question obviously: yes. Inasmuch as I did not give reason, you're entitled to that I guess, so I gave those reasons.[/quote]And I addressed them. We should probably at least wind down the arguments over the reasons we're arguing our current arguments, and argue the arguments themselves.

[quote name='Miloch' date='23 March 2011 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1300891141' post='511484']But I was hoping by that statement in my first paragraph that this wouldn't devolve into yet another "what is canon?" thread, because that's been done to death elsewhere.[/quote]Very fair point. It is tedious.

[quote name='Miloch' date='23 March 2011 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1300891141' post='511484']but you've failed to convince me the Rashemi should look other than the PnP source material depicts them (if that is indeed your purpose).[/quote]It really wasn't, I thought I'd made that clear. As soon as you offered to continue the argument to "humor me" after we cleared up the confusion over your altered portrait (which was 99% of the disagreement), I thought it was obvious that it had become an argument for little more than argument's sake. I guess we weren't on the same page.

[quote name='Miloch' date='23 March 2011 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1300891141' post='511484'][quote]And according to this, the source would override the novel, if and only if it were in opposition to it. I see no reason why my idea of a nation of primarily culturally European people with bristly hair and ursine features who are partially descended from a formerly Scandinavian tribe contradicts the idea of someone with a darker skin tone.[/quote]The novel is in opposition to the published game manual, for reasons I stated above. I do so hate repeating myself, but just this once:
[quote name='Miloch' date='22 March 2011 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1300811445' post='511394']I had anticipated (and perhaps even considered) a "Rus/Scythian" argument, but reject either interpretation:
1. The early [url="http://en.wikipedia....us'_(people)"]Rus'[/url] (aka "Varangians") were undeniably Scandinavian (to wit, Vikings from Sweden). They don't fit the Rashemi description from Races of Faerûn.
...
3. Even proposing an admixture of either such group with others doesn't fit the bill. The people of Rashemen are a very homogenous group as stated above (92% Rashemi). Even the largest minority amongst them (the Nars at 6%) isn't terribly different ethnically...[/quote][/quote]1. I've already suggested an thoroughly mixed race. 3. I thought we were discussing the 92%, not the subgroups. A follow up to both of these would be that mixed races become pure races after a span of time, or else noone in the world would be considered pure in the slightest.

[quote name='Miloch' date='22 March 2011 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1300830188' post='511418'][quote]According to common thought and your own evidence, the novels in question would completely invalidate the games, and become canon as long as they do not fall in direct opposition to source material. Also, since their publication, they have been cited in source material. Undeniable, and undeniably lamentable.[/quote]I'm not sure what "common thought" you're referring to, but you're missing my point: the source material (in Athans' case) is a video game with the FR logo. And by Greenwood's definition, it is for sale in paper form (including a manual with NPC portraits and whatnot) making it theoretically "canon" and as source material for the novel, therefore "more canon" as well. But (with Butler's corollary) it doesn't matter if there's a PnP book that contradicts such secondary source material (and in this case, there is) because the PnP book takes precedence.[/quote]Common thought, as in commonly accepted thought processes in this subject. I agree that it's a confusing case; you don't often see something canonical spring from a non-canonical source, but again, the validity of it was confirmed when they included references to the events in a 4th edition PnP source. Non-canon led to canon-as-long-as-it-doesn't-conflict, which led to full canon.

[quote][quote name='Miloch' date='22 March 2011 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1300830188' post='511418']Can a "Kazakh" be darker than a "Berber"? Sure, why not.[/quote]'Why not' would only work if it were being presenting it as an oddity (like a pale or bald Rashemi), not as a trend, which is the impression I had when I made the comment you are responding to. Neither of us really gains ground on this one.[/quote]You'll have to restate your point if it's one you expect me to respond to. What I was saying is that I think I got their appearances close to their ethnic descriptions from the PnP material. At any rate, that was my goal - I'm not sure what your is.[/quote]My point was that this particular facet of the discussion didn't appear to be going nowhere for either of us, and probably didn't need further discussion.

[quote][quote name='Miloch' date='22 March 2011 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1300830188' post='511418'][quote]Not knowing the name doesn't help my argument, but it certainly doesn't detract from my point; I never claimed to be an ethnologist. Nor does my lack of ability to pin down the second half of the equation when my hypothesis is primarily concerned with the first half.[/quote]Again, please restate your point more clearly, if you're making one (also see my first comment above).[/quote]My point was that admitting I don't know what the non-Rus influences might be doesn't detract from my backed point that they might have partial Rus influence.

[quote]My suggestion that "sjorl" sounds Scandinavian is no more Eurocentric than it is Asian-centric to suggest that the name "Yoshimo" sounds like what it sounds like. But as for Bioware, there is a trend towards this (though I still maintain it is not as extreme as people make it out to be). Wouldn't these claims, however, only strengthen my argument that, when combined with all these minor, supporting arguments, these people might be somewhat based on a European ethnicity?[/quote]No. You're claiming a word is potentially of a particular ethnic origin because it sounds like it could be. At best, this amounts to [url="http://en.wikipedia....son"]fallacious language comparison[/url]; at worst, it's [url="http://en.wikipedia....tymology"]false etymology[/url].[/quote]What is the study of a fantasy world if not a pseudoscience? I would be in the wrong if we were discussing real people, but we are discussing the way things rattled around in the head of the producers. So yes, referencing pseudoscientific language comparison does hold some validity when you are attempting to link it to a mindset or bias within the creators of the game.

[quote name='Miloch' date='22 March 2011 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1300830188' post='511418']Not that I need make another point against this, but I'll cite Occam's Razor (the simplest solution is best). *If* there are "Nordic" words or names in Rashemi (and that's a very big "if" due to my previous argument) then why propose off-world contact as the likeliest reason for it?[/quote]Because a reputable source flat out said that off-world contact was the reason for it. This argument should be put on hold until we come to terms on the validity or lackthereof of the aforementioned source, or else we're just going to get more and more frustrated.

[quote name='Miloch' date='22 March 2011 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1300830188' post='511418'][quote]Let's look at your claim from a practical viewpoint, rather than an argumentative one. What are the odds that they're looking at, say, Mongol society when they say describe the pastimes of a berserker-culture as "snow-racing, skiing, wrestling, drinking, and the like"?[/quote]Any *practical* reason why all of that couldn't've taken place at the court of Genghis Khan? Yes, they had warrior games, snow, mountains, drink and undoubtedly wrestling. (As I've said, however, I'm not arguing a Mongolic origin for the Rashemi - that would be for the Tuigan horde.)[/quote]Sorry, I should have been more clear. The practical reason would be the tendencies of Western culture to view all of these things as iconic of Scandinavian culture, combined with the Eurocentrism of the creators of this campaign setting. I'm not ruling other explanations out, I'm explaining why it led me to where it did.

[quote name='Miloch' date='22 March 2011 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1300830188' post='511418']In fact they excelled at [url="http://en.wikipedia....obility"]winter tactics[/url] even over your blessed Rus[/quote]Arguing a point involving a group of people I'm knowledgable about doesn't in any way imply that I am more interested or appreciative of them than any other race or ethnicity. I'm actually far more interested in and knowledgable of the Mongols. Also, we're not discussing winter tactics, we're discussing culture and bias.

[quote name='Miloch' date='22 March 2011 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1300830188' post='511418']One last point: if you're claiming a significant "Rus" background for the Rashemi (indeed to the extent the Rashemi *are* the Rus or are directly descended from them), when does your source say this occurred? During the Raumathar Empire or after?[/quote]It doesn't show it happening, it's a story told of their history. Who's to say that pockets of foreign culture, especially wandering nomads (a point which is heavily stressed), couldn't manage to hold on to pieces of their identity in an empire as expansive as Raumathar?

[quote name='GeN1e' date='23 March 2011 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1300902930' post='511506'][quote name='Miloch' date='21 March 2011 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1300735965' post='511303']Here's a typical Mulan and Rashemi (also from Races of Faerûn):
[/quote]Looks very Ukrainian.[/quote]I agree.

[Miloch]

You're looking at a more reliable source, but from it all you have to go on is a vague description of skin color, and interperating the other physical characteristics in a way that suits your initial assessment.

No, I'm not "interperating" (interpolating?) and the description is not vague at all. (I'm not going to quote it again - the Rashemi description is at the beginning of post #2.)

I thought it was obvious that it had become an argument for little more than argument's sake. I guess we weren't on the same page.

Oh... I guess not. I'm not really interested in argument for argument's sake. What threw me is that you seemed to agree with me at first, but apparently over some confusion that Rus/Scythians and central Asians were of similar appearance. They weren't, so I felt compelled to clarify that.

1. I've already suggested an thoroughly mixed race. 3. I thought we were discussing the 92%, not the subgroups. A follow up to both of these would be that mixed races become pure races after a span of time, or else noone in the world would be considered pure in the slightest.

We were discussing the 92% (the Rashemi); my point was not only is there no evidence of "Rus blood" (or Illuskan blood or anything like that) in the Rashemi; there's none in the minorities either. You'd think there'd be some evidence of "Scandinavian" features in the Rashemi otherwise, but the opposite is actually true (the Rashemi are darker than their Raumviran predecessors).

What is the study of a fantasy world if not a pseudoscience? I would be in the wrong if we were discussing real people, but we are discussing the way things rattled around in the head of the producers. So yes, referencing pseudoscientific language comparison does hold some validity when you are attempting to link it to a mindset or bias within the creators of the game. [...] Also, we're not discussing winter tactics, we're discussing culture and bias.

I guess I'm not looking at this the same way, and I'm not really interested in dwelling on a "how biased were the game creators" sort of viewpoint. That would be even more speculative than what (I thought) we were discussing and could lead anywhere (probably nowhere good).

Who's to say that pockets of foreign culture, especially wandering nomads (a point which is heavily stressed), couldn't manage to hold on to pieces of their identity in an empire as expansive as Raumathar?

That doesn't really answer the question. The Rashemi are the descendants of the Raumathar Empire. So did these presumed Rus inter-world immigrants *create* the Raumathar empire, did they arrive sometime after its founding or did they arrive after its fall? If they or their descendants are still lurking around in some form, where are they? *All* the Rashemi are descended from them? Shouldn't they *look* like them somewhat? At least some "pockets" somewhere? Notice the Rashemi description does not suggest much room for range or variation, unlike other descriptions - even that of the Illuskan "Vikings." These are important questions to answer if you expect me (or anyone else) to consider the scenario. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying there's no way a group like the Rus of Earth could've had a significant genetic impact on the Rashemi. Now if you said the Tatars or some group matching the description more closely, I'd concede the possibility much more readily.

Here's a typical Mulan and Rashemi (also from Races of Faerûn):

Looks very Ukrainian.

I agree.

As did I (a Ukrainian Tatar). You seemed to have missed my point there (it's projecting "European" traits onto an ethnic group that originated in central Asia).