20 replies to this topic

[smeagolheart]

Nobody else is excited about sneak attacks?

Spoiler

Is it possible to get sneak attack like in 3E (and the option in IWD) where thief's attack from side or back is 1d6 (on up) depending on level.

Could you explain what you mean by "on up" in the text in bold?

Here you go:
(source:
http://www.planetbal.../backstab.shtml )

Sneak Attack and Crippling Strike were introduced with Heart of Winter:

Sneak Attack: This is an optional ability that you can replace backstab with. This option can be enabled in your config program. When a thief uses Sneak Attack and attacks an enemy from the rear or flank, they can do additional damage but one time only. This additional damage is +1d6 every four levels. At level thirty this would be 8d6. Critical hits do not double damage. The thief does not need to be hidden or moving silently to use Sneak Attack.

Crippling Strike: In addition to Sneak Attack, at level five the thief learns the ability of Crippling Strike. When a Sneak Attack is successful, the thief cripples the enemy reducing their hit and damage rolls. This effect is in addition to the Sneak Attack damage. The enemies regain normal hit and damage rolls one turn after the successful Crippling Strike. At level five this causes the enemy to have -1 to hit and damage rolls. Every four levels after, the thief gains minus one to this ability. At level thirty, an enemy hit with Crippling Strike would have -7 to hit and damage rolls.

This was in IWD (and NWN 1+).

It's not only me I swear, this guy from 6 months ago

Methinks it would be overpowered, sounds interesting, but overpowered.
NWN uses 3rd editions rules, which replaced backstab with sneak attack, which does less damage but is easier to pull off multiple times within one battle without the need of going invisible. Thieves gain sneak attack bonuses every other level (I'm not sure on which levels), and the damage is increased by 1D6 each time. The good thing about 3rd edition sneak attack, is you can do it when the enemy doesn't suspect you (not necessarily invisible), flanking, incapacitated etc etc. Also you can only sneak attack with a ranged weapon when you're in 30ft of the target.
In the DnD campaign I used to play a few years back my rogue/fighter wielded a whip dagger (imagine a nimble dagger (more like a dirk) attached the the end of a whip), sneak attacking with that was glorious because I gained flanking bonuses left right and centre.

In my opinion sneak attack is better than backstab, I would love to see a mod (maybe RogueRebalancing) attempt to change backstab to sneak attack. But I have a feeling it's nigh impossible and hard coded. Oh well, bring on the Baldur's Gate mod in the NWN 2 engine!

[Maanape]

One thing this wish-list brings to surface is the possibility of engine modifications that depart from AD&D 2ed. I'm one of those old school gamers who want the game as faithful to the 2ed rules as possible and rejoice with mods that bring items/spells/classes/mechanics closer to PnP. I know many people want modifications that would move BG2 to a D&D 3ed direction, and there's nothing wrong with this preference. But it would be nice to know which options make way to it or not. Modifications to multi/dual class restrictions, racial abilities, weapon restrictions and proficiencies, all this could maybe be modified, but I'd like to know when this if starting to be less AD&D 2ed and becoming some mixed system (and probably an unbalanced one). Maybe TobEx's engine modifications could start two different branches of mods, one faithful to AD&D 2ed and other seeking the conversion to D&D 3ed.

[phordicus]

as much as i think 3rd ed is a terrible joke, i still wouldn't advocate limiting ToBEX's capabilities based on anyone's edition preferences (i'm about 80% 1st, 20% 2nd). if the component isn't included in a mod, you can simply not install it with TOBEX, and if it is in a mod, most decent modders would make something that radical optional (though a few are arrogant enough to just assume their ideas trump yours and wouldn't document it).

anyway, this would need its own thread to continue. mod this out as needed.

[smeagolheart]

How is the option to sneak attack instead of backstab any different from Monks or Barbarians in 2E. It is an configurable option in Icewind Dale:Heart Of Winter which came out around the same time as BG2.

[JohnMoonlord]

as much as i think 3rd ed is a terrible joke, i still wouldn't advocate limiting ToBEX's capabilities based on anyone's edition preferences (i'm about 80% 1st, 20% 2nd). if the component isn't included in a mod, you can simply not install it with TOBEX, and if it is in a mod, most decent modders would make something that radical optional (though a few are arrogant enough to just assume their ideas trump yours and wouldn't document it).

anyway, this would need its own thread to continue. mod this out as needed.

Man, I see your edition preferences history and I can tell you that 4th Edition would probably make you cry uncontrolably in feotal position for the next 3 months! My favorite so far is 3rd (sorry... though I still favor 2nd when it comes to CRPGs), and even I fell on my knees and shouted "why?!!" to the Heavens when it came out.

[Miloch]

I'm one of those old school gamers who want the game as faithful to the 2ed rules as possible and rejoice with mods that bring items/spells/classes/mechanics closer to PnP.

Cool.

I know many people want modifications that would move BG2 to a D&D 3ed direction, and there's nothing wrong with this preference.

False. ("Some," perhaps; "many" would have to suggest a huge number of 3e fans lurking around in the woodworks. If you want 3e, play NWN or BGII: Dark Alliance or Demon Stone - not completely horrid games any of them, but not on the level of BG2).

My favorite so far is 3rd (sorry... though I still favor 2nd when it comes to CRPGs), and even I fell on my knees and shouted "why?!!" to the Heavens when it came out.

Did the 'Heavens' answer? Most of your statement seems to indicate you prefer 2e.

Anyway, somewhat back on track... I have a TobEx request. There is an 'oddity' (or bug) in the engine where if you apply the Portrait Change opcode (#107), even for a duration, the original portrait doesn't get restored (at least not usually). So it'd be great to have some sort of trigger or identifier that could check the current portrait(s) before applying the opcode, so that we could restore it (e.g. when the duration expires).

I trust you also saw my request here? I know you tend to keep track of everything, Ascension64 - just wondering if it's feasible.

[JohnMoonlord]

I know many people want modifications that would move BG2 to a D&D 3ed direction, and there's nothing wrong with this preference.

False. ("Some," perhaps; "many" would have to suggest a huge number of 3e fans lurking around in the woodworks. If you want 3e, play NWN or BGII: Dark Alliance or Demon Stone - not completely horrid games any of them, but not on the level of BG2).

My favorite so far is 3rd (sorry... though I still favor 2nd when it comes to CRPGs), and even I fell on my knees and shouted "why?!!" to the Heavens when it came out.

Did the 'Heavens' answer? Most of your statement seems to indicate you prefer 2e.

Nah, even the Great DM in the sky works in mysterious ways...

Hey, I do like 2nd and AD&D. I even like 1st. But I felt 3rd really opened the flood gates when it comes to customization and character options. It took some getting used to not having a TAC0 and the revised saving throw system, but it all made sense to me, and now I wouldn't back out on them, honestly.

There's a lot more 3rd edition fans out there than you might expect. They just, like me, don't necessarily dislike or hate 2nd edition because of it.

Exploring mods, I saw that there were more and more options for the 3rd edition enclined. Might try it out myself someday soon.

Offering more options is the purpose of any mod, so having both mods that aims to stick to 2nd and others that pushes toward 3rd is a good thing: let's each player out there, old and new (I might've converted someone lately), pick there own preferences, or even mix things out. I'd say I'm from this last category.

Edited by JohnMoonlord, 05 March 2011 - 05:29 AM.

[Miloch]

Hey, I do like 2nd and AD&D. I even like 1st. But I felt 3rd really opened the flood gates when it comes to customization and character options. It took some getting used to not having a TAC0 and the revised saving throw system, but it all made sense to me, and now I wouldn't back out on them, honestly.

The thing is, the engine is overwhelmingly 2nd edition. Though there may be some mods that introduce 3e features, I don't think it's even in the power of something like TobEx to overhaul THAC0, saving throws and other fundamental differences.

I didn't mind BG(2): Dark Alliance, for a console game. But a lot of the 3e character and item customisation was a bit *too* much, and detracted from the story. Not that there was much story. But what can you say about a game whose most interesting (and time-consuming) feature is character customisation. It's almost as if a game company sold out to a toy company (oh wait, that *is* what happened ).

It would be way cool if someone made a generic item upgrade mod a la 3e where you could give any weapon "shocking burst" and such features with enough gems etc. But that would be almost impossible in this engine without a massive number of unique items, icons, dialogue, scripting, etc.

[GeN1e]

I'd say the best feature about 3e is that it's actually a math system, while 2e looks more like composed by a bunch of schoolkids.

What BG does lack, is NWN's scripting for spells. Word.

[JohnMoonlord]

Hey, I do like 2nd and AD&D. I even like 1st. But I felt 3rd really opened the flood gates when it comes to customization and character options. It took some getting used to not having a TAC0 and the revised saving throw system, but it all made sense to me, and now I wouldn't back out on them, honestly.

The thing is, the engine is overwhelmingly 2nd edition. Though there may be some mods that introduce 3e features, I don't think it's even in the power of something like TobEx to overhaul THAC0, saving throws and other fundamental differences.

I didn't mind BG(2): Dark Alliance, for a console game. But a lot of the 3e character and item customisation was a bit *too* much, and detracted from the story. Not that there was much story. But what can you say about a game whose most interesting (and time-consuming) feature is character customisation. It's almost as if a game company sold out to a toy company (oh wait, that *is* what happened ).

It would be way cool if someone made a generic item upgrade mod a la 3e where you could give any weapon "shocking burst" and such features with enough gems etc. But that would be almost impossible in this engine without a massive number of unique items, icons, dialogue, scripting, etc.

I noticed in my last install of BWP that the install.bat now offers the option to switch to 3rd Edition rules. I don't know which mod does it, but ToBEx would fit the modus operandi. I don't know to what extend the conversion goes, though; if things you mentioned, like THAC0 would be changed or not. In any case, yes, I believe it would take a HUGE, MASSIVE overhaul of a mod to make it happen.

I haven't played any of the Dark Alliance games and can't say I regret not having: your description of it basically sums up the impression I had when it first came out. Not that I see them as bad games, eventhough I never played them, but because, well... they're just not 'true' Baldur's Gate games: they're not meant for such as we.

[the bigg]

Altering the Strength progression so that it adheres to 3rd edition-like rules is trivial (you must edit a single file). Altering the THAC0/save/... system so that it adheres to 3rd edition rules is insanely hard even for ToBEx (the code is all around the executable, and you'd have to find and fix *all* locations to make the new system work). Altering the leveling system so that you pick a class at level up (like in 3rd edition) is plainly impossible (the CRE files simply don't have the space to store that kind of information).

[Maanape]

Hey, I do like 2nd and AD&D. I even like 1st. But I felt 3rd really opened the flood gates when it comes to customization and character options. It took some getting used to not having a TAC0 and the revised saving throw system, but it all made sense to me, and now I wouldn't back out on them, honestly.

The thing is, the engine is overwhelmingly 2nd edition. Though there may be some mods that introduce 3e features, I don't think it's even in the power of something like TobEx to overhaul THAC0, saving throws and other fundamental differences.

I didn't mind BG(2): Dark Alliance, for a console game. But a lot of the 3e character and item customisation was a bit *too* much, and detracted from the story. Not that there was much story. But what can you say about a game whose most interesting (and time-consuming) feature is character customisation. It's almost as if a game company sold out to a toy company (oh wait, that *is* what happened ).

It would be way cool if someone made a generic item upgrade mod a la 3e where you could give any weapon "shocking burst" and such features with enough gems etc. But that would be almost impossible in this engine without a massive number of unique items, icons, dialogue, scripting, etc.

I was willing to say many things about D&D editions, like how in my opinion relying on customization lead D&D to dilution, but this is not the place. Maybe there's some other topic to discuss this, anyone interested?

[phordicus]

Altering the Strength progression so that it adheres to 3rd edition-like rules is trivial (you must edit a single file). Altering the THAC0/save/... system so that it adheres to 3rd edition rules is insanely hard even for ToBEx (the code is all around the executable, and you'd have to find and fix *all* locations to make the new system work). Altering the leveling system so that you pick a class at level up (like in 3rd edition) is plainly impossible (the CRE files simply don't have the space to store that kind of information).

someone with the ability to really needs to branch this into another thread because (a) it's really OT and (b) it's interesting and somewhat pertinent.

couldn't level ups simply be handled by a dialog and a "dummy" class to keep track of xp?

[Ascension64]

Split topic.

Anyway, somewhat back on track... I have a TobEx request. There is an 'oddity' (or bug) in the engine where if you apply the Portrait Change opcode (#107), even for a duration, the original portrait doesn't get restored (at least not usually). So it'd be great to have some sort of trigger or identifier that could check the current portrait(s) before applying the opcode, so that we could restore it (e.g. when the duration expires).

I trust you also saw my request here? I know you tend to keep track of everything, Ascension64 - just wondering if it's feasible.

Yeah, I caught both of these, even though they got mish-mashed into the splitting.

[JohnMoonlord]

Split topic.

Thanks, dude.

[smeagolheart]

So this is what happened to my request for sneak attack option

[phordicus]

yeah, bro. rogues in bg2 aren't dps. that's what DA/DA2 is for lol.

[Dakk]

yeah, bro. rogues in bg2 aren't dps. that's what DA/DA2 is for lol.

1) add a pinch of "dude"
2) feed it to phordicus
3) ???
4) profit!

[phordicus]

can't be helped. i'm corrupted by the younger gen instead of the other way around.

[Ascension64]

Lol, it's on a to-do list (the sneak attack, not the whole 2ed and 3ed discussion)...