81 replies to this topic

[DavidWallace]

I'd like to think we're past serious 'fix vs. tweak' arguments

Has there ever been a serious 'fix vs. tweak' debate outside of certain places?

Yes. ... but I take your point. I don't think anything on Ascension64's list remotely counts as controversial by any sensible standard (very few of them would even by the rational of those places). I'm all for including the lot. I can just about see the case for leaving the Dispel fix as something which will be visible to people, but I don't really care even about that.

[Dakk]

From my, very end-usery, perspective - the Dispel fix is one of the best things about TobEx bar none. I'd hate to see it in a Tweaks component (just for those poor souls that'll never come to know why their dispel attempts fizzle ALL the time). And as I understand it, while Fixpack neither wants TobEx integrated nor consider the Dispel fix a "fix" - which is fair enough -, ultimately it'll be up to Ascension what to include in what component of TobEx [Fixpack Extender]?

Edited by Dakk, 01 February 2011 - 09:38 AM.

[cmorgan]

+1 to the bigg

actually,

+1000, if I am allowed.

I think the advantage here is that the game is fun to mod, has great tools to use, etc. - but is still well past being old. Most of the mods produced today expect the Fixpack, or check for it and at minimum install some of the resources; the BWP folks have an entire community that works hard to find and address bugs that break content delivery - I would actually be very happy to have a few capable "deep-thought" folks that play with heavy stuff weigh in and incorporate what they consider core fixes.

The good news here is the serious folks who disagree are the same ones who can actually work their way around the changes, either through .ini edit or through alternative patching. For a modder like me, who really only wants some real basics like not worrying about messing up things by doing area-related songs and expanding the songlist, allowing charmed NPCs to have funny lines play when charmed, and perhaps being able to detect Wildmages and Barbarians for dialog purposes, just not having to deal with stuff like that would be a godsend.

Edited by cmorgan, 01 February 2011 - 09:40 AM.

[DavidWallace]

+1 to the bigg

actually,

+1000, if I am allowed.

You're not: 255 is the maximum. (As of v14 of ToBEx you can extend this by setting No Maximum Level Of Approbation For The Bigg=1 in ToBEx.ini, but it's not been thoroughly tested for levels higher than 511.)

[the bigg]

I can just about see the case for leaving the Dispel fix as something which will be visible to people, but I don't really care even about that.

The Dispel Fix makes the effect work like it is described in the spell description, hence it should be classified as a 'core' fix even if it alters the game - unless you wish to claim that keeping it broken is better because it forces you to learn Good Central European Tactics.

And as I understand it, while Fixpack neither wants TobEx integrated nor consider the Dispel fix a "fix" - which is fair enough

I'm not a decision-maker for the Fixpack, but my (and Cam's, DW's, ...) main objection to incorporating the ToBEx fixes into the Fixpack are of technical nature - namely, it is hard to reconcile multiple versions of the DLL. Since Ascension said that he will provide a way to solve that issue, I see no problem with the Fixpack installing the ToBEx fixes (either in Core or in OBC). DevSin's opinion on this particular issue shouldn't count - he's just bitter that he's on a Mac and is losing out on the ToBEx goodness

You're not: 255 is the maximum. (As of v14 of ToBEx you can extend this by setting No Maximum Level Of Approbation For The Bigg=1 in ToBEx.ini, but it's not been thoroughly tested for levels higher than 511.)

I think the limit is 2^24 - 5 = 16777211, and increasing it requires rewriting large sections of the OCaml memory manager.

Edited by the bigg, 01 February 2011 - 10:24 AM.

[cmorgan]

I am just damned glad we don't have to write that as

10 PRINT "This mod will let you quantify approval."
20 INPUT "Please input amount of approbation for the bigg.", N
30 IF N = 0 THEN GOTO 20
40 PRINT "The Bigg gets approval of $N"
50 END

Darn it - forgot how to do that in BASIC. Wow. I teh suxxor.

Edited by cmorgan, 01 February 2011 - 11:17 AM.

[GeN1e]

Apparently, here's an agreement that all engine fixes should go in one default component. I also agree with Turambar that the 'externalize' bunch should also be put together - if some mod wants to take advantage of it, they provide the required patch for ingame resources, otherwise new possibilities remain dormant.
Also, it would be indeed welcome if ToBEx can run from BGMAIN.EXE. The reason is simple - if one, say, uses extended DS for AI, the user will run into bugs if not launching via ToBEx.

[CamDawg]

And as I understand it, while Fixpack neither wants TobEx integrated nor consider the Dispel fix a "fix" - which is fair enough

I'm not a decision-maker for the Fixpack, but my (and Cam's, DW's, ...) main objection to incorporating the ToBEx fixes into the Fixpack are of technical nature - namely, it is hard to reconcile multiple versions of the DLL. Since Ascension said that he will provide a way to solve that issue, I see no problem with the Fixpack installing the ToBEx fixes (either in Core or in OBC). DevSin's opinion on this particular issue shouldn't count - he's just bitter that he's on a Mac and is losing out on the ToBEx goodness

I'll freely admit that the Dispel Magic fix was exactly what I had in mind when we were discussing ToBEx, however, I'm willing to let the discussion play out further and personally remain undecided (this thread notwithstanding). devSin's arguments do have merits and he's more than earned the right to object.

I suspect that it's ultimately a moot discussion. ToBEx seems destined to be a staple for any install, much like Tweaks, simply because there will something for any conceivable type of player. Further, I suspect this will remain true regardless of whether Fixpack steals all the fixes.

[the bigg]

I'll freely admit that the Dispel Magic fix was exactly what I had in mind when we were discussing ToBEx, however, I'm willing to let the discussion play out further and personally remain undecided (this thread notwithstanding). devSin's arguments do have merits and he's more than earned the right to object.

I'd rather keep the discussion to technical merits rather than individual merits, and "there has to be some limit to how far we'll go in pursuit of smoothing out the game's bugs, and executable and keyfile modification seems to me as good a limit as any" isn't a good argument, since updates to the tools can make patching one of those 'forbidden' files safe (for example, older versions of WeiDU weren't able to cleanly remove XR2[46]00.are from the chitin, while the latest WeiDU can use DISABLE_FROM_KEY to cleanly remove files from the chitin, without issues on reinstalls and the like).

Edited by the bigg, 01 February 2011 - 05:36 PM.

[Ascension64]

Alright, let's have a look at every configurable item so far in TobEx...
I have been rather conservative in my 'guesses' for category to ensure scrutiny.

One of my concerns (possibly very aggrandised) is how extra code may slow the game down. Apart from reports of the custom contingency check delay, so far all the extra instructions that the game has to go through hasn't actually created a noticeable slowdown on my mini-laptop non-beasty Sony, but lower-end computers may feel more of a pinch if they struggle already. I try to optimise code where I can, but slowdown (if present) may be an unfortunate side effect of having an extender utility.

Fix
AddKit Actions Fix - fix as otherwise kit gets corrupted if using anything larger than a word
Critical Error Message Box Fix - yep, more debug-style, but doesn't do anything to change the way the game works
Apply Effect Item Fix - fix or extension, restores the effect opcode, which otherwise doesn't work
Apply Effect Itemtype Fix - as above
Attacks Per Round Mod Fix - Fix for otherwise weird-crazy behaviour when doing some deceptively simple addition/subtraction
Awaken Fix - as above
Cure Drunk Fix - as above
Damage Fix - fixes a crash bug and fixes missing hit sound
Disease Fix - fixes application of repeated eff, which otherwise is bugged
Disintegrate Fix - fixes memory leak
Dispel Formula Fix - fixes formula described by the game because of missing parenthesis in original code
Forbid Item Type Fix - fixes when nParam2 not 0, the effect doesn't work
Invisible Fix - fixes incorrect code when timing is 1
Magic Resistance Mod Fix - corrects behaviour that is otherwise non-functioning opcode in permanent timing
Poison Fix - fix as for repeated eff
Regeneration Fix - fix as for repeated eff
Repeating Effect Fix - fix as for repeated eff
Cleric-Ranger HLA Fix - fixes incorrect reading of 2DA. Yes, this is a fix, because the engine reads the 2DA incorrectly
Targetting Dead Animations Fix - fixes game AI when static_* animations are around
Animation Sound Fix - fix for which animation .2DA soundsets are properly read
Existence Sound Fix - fix where pickpocket sounds played instead of existence due to typo
Kit Trigger Fix - fix for which otherwise the trigger wouldn't even work for kits > MAX_WORD
Brighten On Disable Brightest No3d Fix - this is a weird fix, because the fix makes the game look even worse with no 3d acceleration and DisableBrighten=1 in baldur.ini. However, there was a misplaced parenthesis or a NOT (I can't remember which) in the original code
IWD Animation Attack 3 Fix - fixed bug loading the wrong animation group for 0xE000 anims
VVC Alpha Rendering Crash Fix - you can argue this is an extension instead if you think that BioWare never intended for the alpha animation to be used, regardless having on doesn't affect any existing game resources by the alpha animations is never used anyway due to the assertion failed crash caused

Extension
Configurable Backstab Every Hit - configurable; works only when bit set
Configurable Damage Effect Bypasses Mirror Images - configurable; works only when bit set
Configurable Magical Item Dispel Behaviour - configurable; works only when bit set
Extend Cut Scene 2 - new param
IWD Style Cats Grace Dexterity Mod - new param as per IWD
IWD Style Mage Spell Slots Mod - new param as per IWD
IWD Style Priest Spell Slots Mod - new param as per IWD
IWD Style Strength Mod - new param as per IWD
Learn Spell Mod - new param
Remove Projectile Mod - new param
Expanded Stats - new stuff, doesn't affect any existing stats
Externalise HP Tables - default install maintains vanilla behaviour
Externalise Class-Race Restrictions - default install maintains vanilla behaviour
Externalise Encumbrance Restrictions - default install maintains vanilla behaviour
Level One Proficiency Restrictions - now this would never affect a vanilla BG2:ToB because you don't create Level 1 dudes, so I would feel safe putting this in extension group
Configurable Backstab Restrictions - configurable; works only when bit set
Configurable Critical Hit Aversion - configurable; works only when bit set
Enable 99 Random Treasure Rows - new stuff, doesn't affect existing rows in random treasure
Externalise Item-Creature Exclusions - default install maintains vanilla behaviour
Extended Songlist - new stuff, doesn't affect existing songlists
Externalise Animation Walking Sounds - default install maintains vanilla behaviour
Soundset Subtitles - this does affect the game by forcing subtitles on the shipped custom soundsets. It can also cause some minor confusion about whether a custom soundset is actually being used if you use an existing saved game with/without TobEx and then uninstall/install TobEx, because of the way that this hack works. Nevertheless, it is still vanilla compatible
Configurable Spells Can Target Invisible - configurable; works only when bit set
Custom Dialogue Bar Buffer Size - does nothing much to the game, might make it slower for a big size; will need a standard size...
Allow 1280 Total Kits - no effect on existing kits
Externalise Mage Spell Hiding - default install maintains vanilla behaviour
Externalise Race Selection StrRef - default install maintains vanilla behaviour
Scrollable Chargen Mage Spell Selection - yeah, this stuffs up the game by adding a scrollbar, so UI purists will be annoyed...
Scrollable Kit Selection - as above
Scrollable Level Up Mage Spell Selection - as above
Scrollable Mage Spellbook - as above
Scrollable Priest Spellbook - as above

Debug - debugging stuff is crucial to my bug-fixing purposes, and doesn't affect the game itself
Externalise Logging
Log Assertion Failures
Log Assertion Warnings
Log Dialogue Bar
Log File Mode
Log Missing Resources
Log More Messages
Restore Extra Combat Info Text
Verbose Logging

Equivocal
EquipRanged Action Fix - I vote fix, but one can argue whether it was intended for this action not to equip one-handed throwing weapons when a shield is equipped. Seems far-fetched to me - this would be more like an AI improvement than a 'fix' per-se
Blindness Fix - This is a strange one for me, because TobEx includes two 'fixes', one that prevents cumulative THAC0 penalty (bug fix for the coded blindness behaviour), and one that implements the Blindness spell description. I have no idea what is supposed to be 'right'. Open to opinion on this one
Use Caster Level On Mirror Image - Maybe this is AD&D behaviour, but was this intended? Was it really a 'bug' for BioWare to not copy over the cast level when constructing the effect?
Allow 99 Priest Known Spells Per Level - This is a mod compatibility issue. If someone decides they want SPPR456.SPL and never intended for it to be part of a stock priest spells on level-up, then they won't like me. Before commenting, please be reminded that vanilla behaviour is maintained for this hack because SPELLS.2DA is patched so that the ToB SPPRX98-99.SPL spells are not included
Apply Casting Level Bonus - Again, BioWare-intended to use this or lose this?
Assassin and Bounty Hunter Penalty to Similar Kits - mod compatibility issue. This will never change vanilla behaviour, but if someone decides their Arrowchaser Kit should have same restrictions as Assassin but not the penalty to thieving points, they won't like me.
Correct Experience Gain - I puzzle over this one. Why on earth did BioWare want 110% experience coded in the CRE given to the party and report not quite the right amount? Did they think levelling was too slow?
Non-Ammo Launcher Damage Fix - This is a fix for an exploit. I am inclined to pop this in the fix category, because I agree that it was not intended for non-ammo launchers to use arrows and deal both the ammo and the phantom ammo damage together
Use Animation Percentages for Throwing Weapons - I struggle to call this a fix, marginally as an extension because I am quite sure BioWare had got this right. This change was made by request, which in beta 0017 has issued (fixed for 0018). I think therefore this is a tweak.
Enable Animation Attack Sounds - Clutter your game with animation sounds! Certainly changes the way that vanilla behaves. I am inclined to call this a tweak
Enable PickpocketFailed Trigger - The description is "When pickpocketing fails, a PickPocketFailed() trigger is sent instead of Attacked()"... I imagine this is more a extension if both a PickPocketFailed() and an Attacked() trigger was sent. This does change vanilla behaviour, because Attacked() is no longer sent if pickpocket fails.
Enlarge Tooltip Scroll - This I think would be extension, but it's actually bugged when the scroll gets too wide (an assertion warning is pulled and the scroll never disappears until the next window redraw). Still investigating, no heads up yet...

Tweak
Apply Concentration Check On Damage - easily tweak
Awaken On Damage - easily tweak
Disable Stoneskin Grey Colour - easily tweak
No Spell Interruption On Zero Damage - I am 95% sure of tweak on this one, a hit is a hit is a hit
Allow All Races to Dual Class - easily tweak
Allow Equipping Armor in Combat - easily tweak
Disable Silence On Charm - I am only around 60% on this one. While it certainly does affect vanilla behaviour (all those STATE_CHARMED StateChecks in dialogue become functional and you can still get the standard dialogues when charmed in other cases), it certainly allows a lot of extension
Disable Force Inventory Pause - easily tweak
Remain Hidden On Pickpocket Success - easily tweak
Rest Spawns Advance Time - easily tweak
Dialogue Greeting Subtitles - easily tweak, doesn't really change vanilla but does show up extra line of dialogue
Universal Four Inventory Weapon Slots - easily tweak

DO NOT USE
Custom Contingency Trigger Check Delay - this will eventually become an extension to allow proper implementation of auras, the Cast Spell On Condition effect will have extra param, so vanilla not affected
Disable Duplicate Effect Stacking - this probably will go down the drain

I re-iterate that the one big side effect of TobEx (assuming stable and nice and tested and stuff) is possible slowdown. With most people owning fast-enough computers (yet dragons still slow the whole game down and Bags of Holding still stutter the game), I don't see this as a huge problem (if it exists).

Discuss.

Edited by Ascension64, 02 February 2011 - 01:03 AM.

[ydfhdsfh]

Massively cutting down on install options of some tech engine fixes no end user wants to know what it specifically does as long as its fixed, is certainly a good thing.

regeneration and poison stacking while technically a fix, i dont know if its completely true for the OC(original campaign). Maybe the devs wanted them not to stack, given the rather high amount of regen items in the game.

[Ascension64]

Massively cutting down on install options of some tech engine fixes no end user wants to know what it specifically does as long as its fixed, is certainly a good thing.

regeneration and poison stacking while technically a fix, i dont know if its completely true for the OC(original campaign). Maybe the devs wanted them not to stack, given the rather high amount of regen items in the game.

You're right, there's a lot in there that most end users won't understand, which includes the regeneration and poison stacking. The issues with the 'stacking' effects is not whether they stack or not, rather it is what happens when they do stack. When they do stack, only the effect that triggers first will work. This effect resets the timer to 0, but the timer is used by all stacked effects. Therefore, effects with longer delays will never trigger. This certainly was not intended by devs.

[Miloch]

What if a mod just wants to use a certain feature, like "externalise race selection" for example? Is it available in some sort of "snippet" form that could also be detected and skipped if it's already in?

I in fact grabbed Taimon's hack quite some time ago to do this, but I should probably update it to whatever TobEx uses as that seems to be the standard. Edit: Also I'd want to minimise any possibility of one conflicting with the other.

Edited by Miloch, 02 February 2011 - 03:57 AM.

[Ascension64]

What if a mod just wants to use a certain feature, like "externalise race selection" for example? Is it available in some sort of "snippet" form that could also be detected and skipped if it's already in?

Well, if "Externalise Race Selection" is 'standard', every mod who uses TobEx must use "Externalise Race Selection". If a mod wants to 'use it further', like add support for a different named race (like Dryad), they would modify RACETEXT.2DA to include this. They don't need to configure TobEx itself.

To generalise here, TobEx externalisation would provide the base through which mods can add stuff.

At the moment, you would use FILE_CONTAINS_EVALUATED or REQUIRE_COMPONENT to check for activation in TobEx.ini, and then you would APPEND racetext.2da.

Edited by Ascension64, 02 February 2011 - 04:40 AM.

[the bigg]

What if a mod just wants to use a certain feature, like "externalise race selection" for example? Is it available in some sort of "snippet" form that could also be detected and skipped if it's already in?

Ascension already said that the next version of ToBEx will ship with tp2 snippets and documentation for this sort of mod integration.

[ydfhdsfh]

The issues with the 'stacking' effects is not whether they stack or not, rather it is what happens when they do stack. ... This certainly was not intended by devs.

You are speaking of technical correctness, im speaking about game balancing, given the engine at hand. The devs didnt had some unique engine and then intentionally broke it, denying us regeneration. They had to balance things according to the technical state they had. Noone but devs know of their intent. For us, only the result counts. And the result is that different sources of regen and poison dont stack and therefore in vanilla BG2, it isnt possible to equip gaxx+regen ring+blackrazor+axe of unyielding+regen ion stone on a con 20+ char, top if off with regen spell and go waltz through enemies. Im seeing here 50-60hp/round regen.

Im all for stacking and bugfixing but for me its just convinient and i have no intention of abusing it. But making it standard is a bit too much imho... wouldnt that make different sources of DoT poison spells stack too. Cloudkill is already cheesy to no end. This ofc only applies to older modules. New modules would make use of this change, so to maintain balance with older modules and apply to new ones its good place is in the tweak section.

Not that i care, i have it applied anyway, but i dont know about the purists among us... and you wanted to discuss. )

Edited by ydfhdsfh, 02 February 2011 - 05:27 AM.

[the bigg]

You are speaking of technical correctness, im speaking about game balancing, given the engine at hand. The devs didnt had some unique engine and then intentionally broke it, denying us regeneration. They had to balance things according to the technical state they had. Noone but devs know of their intent.

If it were intentional, it would be mentioned somewhere in the readme or the spell description, so your argument about developer intent doesn't hold. Besides, stacking isn't prevented in general by the engine: if you were to obtain two identically-fast sources of regeneration (E.G. by casting multiple copies of Regeneration on yourself) the effect WOULD stack.

[Jarno Mikkola]

(E.G. by casting multiple copies of Regeneration on yourself) the effect WOULD stack.

Besides those, the individual spell effects can be set to not stack with each others...
I am far more worried about the regeneration spell not effecting with a low power poison effects like spider bite poisons... and the other way around, too. As in the games set rules(the manual etc spell descriptions), those effects should stack meaning the individual gets both the damage and healing, but with the vanilla BG2, the effect with faster reaction time cancels the other, until it runs our of effect, if it ever does, and as the spells have durations, the less fast effects times can run out without it having any effect to the individual even when it should be...

[the bigg]

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[DavidWallace]

OK, comments as requested. First a meta-point: I continue to think that you might do better to continue distributing a .ini file (at least for some modifications) and just stopping supporting user modifications, rather than removing it entirely. (Maybe have various options set to 1 by default, i.e. unless the relevant line is included in the .ini. Maybe even put the file somewhere less immediately-visible, like in the ToBEx folder.) That way, if you break compatibility with some obscure mod, and the modder knows what they're doing, they can disable the relevant fix (at their own risk). And that way if someone absolutely hates something then they can write a "revert" mod. In many cases I'd rather go down that route than re-route something into Tweaks that really should be a fix. (You might also find that leaving a user-accessible .ini helps you with debugging.)

That said, some comments (largely not backed up by argument - this is just a first pass)

Fix, Extension, Debug

Everything in these looks unambiguous to me (possibly with the exception of "soundset subtitles", which I don't fully understand).

Equivocal

EquipRanged action fix: this one's a fix. I suppose I can just-theoretically imagine a script that deliberately took advantage of this functionality, but I'll bet money there aren't any in the vanilla game or in any mod.
Blindness fix: I'd leave this one for tweaks or third-party mods - erring on the side of caution.
Use Caster Level On Mirror Image: again, on side-of-caution grounds, I'd leave this one out.
Allow 99 spells per level: am I right in thinking that the ToBEx component only allows the possibility of this happening, and the functionality is enabled by modifying the relevant 2DA file? If so, is it possible to leave it as an extension, so that mods can enable it by editing the 2DA file? (Or am I just confused?)
Apply Casting Level Bonus: looks like fix to me
Assassin and Bounty Hunter penalty: this is a prime case of something where I'd include it by default but allow a mod to edit tobex.ini to change it if required for compatibility.
Correct Experience Gain: in 2nd edition AD&D, the majority of characters have a 10% XP bonus due to having high statistics. Is it possible that's where Bioware is coming from?
Non-Ammo Launcher Damage Fix: fix
Animation Percentages for Thrown Weapons: tweak
Animation Attack Sounds: tweak
PickpocketFailed Trigger: best left (if possible) as something third-party mods could enable. It's only relevant to someone who actually wants this behaviour in their mod.
Enlarge Tooltip Scroll: moot, as it depends on investigations

Tweaks

Most of these I agree with. I'm on the fence over "No spell interruption on zero damage" - being protected from fire and then casting in an incendiary cloud seems fair enough - but I can see the counter-case. I think Disable Silence on Charm is fairly clearly a tweak: I always assumed Bioware did this to save themselves the trouble of having to code response lines for every NPC who was charmed, as they did in BG1. Again, I think this is one you'd want to allow third-party mods to activate. (It would be a natural tweak option for a Tutu/BGT player, in particular.)