31 replies to this topic

[spanyam]

It's been a month since I first found out about the amazing modding scene for the BG series and all the fantastic work done with the BWS. I've learned a lot from this community, managed a couple of successful installations since then, and done a fair bit of reading up (especially the BiG World Guide.pdf), so I think I have a fair handle of what the mods are and what I'd like to play. Given this, I would like to clear a few doubts regarding the overall mega-mod installation before I proceed to do a complete (and hopefully "final" reinstall).

• [Big Picture + Sword Coast Stratagems (1 & 2)] My main question. In my current setup, I followed the BWS mini-description's advice not to install both and skipped SCS and SCSII altogether. However, upon further reading, I really like what SCS and SCSII have done. So my question is, so long as I follow the BiG World Guide and avoid overlapping components between BP and SCS(II), will I be okay? A related question to this. There are some BP components that the guide specifically instructs you to avoid installing simultaneously with SCS(II) ones, whereas there are others that it merely labels as "overlapping," without such strong warnings attached. Should I avoid double-installing the "overlapping" ones as well?
  
• [Dark Horizons - MILD SPOILER WARNING] I love the concept of this mod, and the exposure that I have had has been nice so far. I've only fought the first really tough encounter so far, but the items from it are extremely powerful for that stage of the game. My question is, has anyone else played through this mod in a mega-mod install? If so, how did you find it balance-wise?
  
• [Vecna] This is listed as an "expert" mod. Is it because of gameplay difficulty or because of possible bugginess that requires expert knowledge to handle?
  
• Lastly, I'd like some general tips. I like making things difficult gameplay wise. I enjoy spending time working out tactical challenges but also like keeping the player party strong and competent, with many options to customize (especially through having lots of different items/spells). I guess what I'm going for is akin to a good chess match, where both parties start off on even ground. I don't want to feel like I'm always at an uphill battle nor do I want to be splattering everything in sight. As such, I've picked up all of the mods that increase difficulty and add tactical challenges but also those that add strong items and rewards along with that. Does anyone have any pointers on mods to specifically avoid (either because they make the game too easy or too difficult)?

Thanks in advance for the help! Hopefully, this thread also comes in handy to other newbies who have similar questions.

Edited by spanyam, 21 December 2010 - 06:28 PM.

[Solaufein]

I happen to be the creator of Dark Horizons so I'll answer your question in regards to that. People will say the items are not balanced and I would agree. Its how I envisioned this particular mod and that's how it will stay. It was influenced by Dark Side of the Sword Coast and other mods of that sort and Diablo. Its really my only mod that is "overkill" I guess. Its a mod with a good story with some nice hard encounters so people may need those items or use some good tactics. If the items are a problem, just leave them on the ground and leave the area and they should be gone the next time you visit that area.

[spanyam]

Ah, thank you for the input, and for the mod! Yeah, I have definitely had a lot of fun with the story, the fights, and especially the items. Almost too much fun. I will carry them along and see how it plays out. Probably the only reason I even asked the question in the first place is because it takes an ascetic level of commitment to leave such nice items on the ground. But I think that with all the tactics mods installed, it should turn out fine. If not, insane difficulty might fill in admirably. :-) Thanks!

[Lollorian]

Re: #3 (Vecna)

Possible bugginess could be the reason (note how "possible" is emphasized)

The mod is expert cause no one reported in an affirmative after playing the mod in the BWP ... AND because the mod author seems to have gone kapoof

If you can play the mod in your BWP install and report how it went (along with any bugs and stuff you get ), once all bugs are ironed out using the BWPFixpack, the mod might go Recommended

[spanyam]

Okay sure, I will test it out then. No fun in not taking risks. Any input on #1 from anyone?

Edited by spanyam, 21 December 2010 - 10:53 PM.

[Miloch]

1. [Big Picture + Sword Coast Stratagems (1 & 2)] My main question. In my current setup, I followed the BWS mini-description's advice not to install both and skipped SCS and SCSII altogether. However, upon further reading, I really like what SCS and SCSII have done. So my question is, so long as I follow the BiG World Guide and avoid overlapping components between BP and SCS(II), will I be okay? A related question to this. There are some BP components that the guide specifically instructs you to avoid installing simultaneously with SCS(II) ones, whereas there are others that it merely labels as "overlapping," without such strong warnings attached. Should I avoid double-installing the "overlapping" ones as well?

If you can post the specific component warnings, it might help with better advice (I'm too lazy to go look at it ). In general, you should be "ok" installing BP before the SCSes.

3. [Vecna] This is listed as an "expert" mod. Is it because of gameplay difficulty or because of possible bugginess that requires expert knowledge to handle?

It's still in alpha, if that means anything to you. However, it should still be feasible to test it. As I understand, it adds new areas, so if they're buggy, you can just avoid them.

4. Lastly, I'd like some general tips. I like making things difficult gameplay wise. I enjoy spending time working out tactical challenges but also like keeping the player party strong and competent, with many options to customize (especially through having lots of different items/spells). I guess what I'm going for is akin to a good chess match, where both parties start off on even ground. I don't want to feel like I'm always at an uphill battle nor do I want to be splattering everything in sight. As such, I've picked up all of the mods that increase difficulty and add tactical challenges but also those that add strong items and rewards along with that. Does anyone have any pointers on mods to specifically avoid (either because they make the game too easy or too difficult)?

There is or was a list in the BWP (maybe even in the BWS in a menu option somewhere). Avoid stuff like Exnem Items, LotR Items, SP Items (except the version on G3 in SP Collection). They're not just over-the-top overpowered, but out-of-character and possibly buggy too. You'll find enough phat loot in other mods to be sure.

[Hoppy]

In general, you should be "ok" installing BP before the SCSes.

Doesn't that obliterate BP's AI, at least the actual content of the scripts. I know the SCSes used to and I had missing BP AI that I knew should have been there specifically with the Orc Mages in BG2.

Edited by Hoppy, 22 December 2010 - 09:03 AM.

[Miloch]

Doesn't that obliterate BP's AI, at least the actual content of the scripts. I know the SCSes used to and I had missing BP AI that I knew should have been there specifically with the Orc Mages in BG2.

I don't know how long ago that was, but currently BP prefixes pretty much all its scripts with "bp". SCSes used to overwrite (or rewrite) generic scripts like wtasight. I'm not sure, but now it might use either its own prefix (dw#) or the Tutu underscore. But anyway, there should be no real conflict in that respect. Given the way the game's AI system works, you can't really have 2 scripts running at once on the same creature anyway. So if you install SCSes after BP, the former's AI will generally prevail where they would be otherwise scripting the same actors. The reason we recommend installing BP first is because BP still overwrites some resources, so it needs to go early or you can end up with actors who have no AI at all (and worse problems perhaps). This will be changed in the next release (so if you want BP's AI to prevail over SCSes, you can install it after).

[Hoppy]

Doesn't that obliterate BP's AI, at least the actual content of the scripts. I know the SCSes used to and I had missing BP AI that I knew should have been there specifically with the Orc Mages in BG2.

I don't know how long ago that was, but currently BP prefixes pretty much all its scripts with "bp". SCSes used to overwrite (or rewrite) generic scripts like wtasight. I'm not sure, but now it might use either its own prefix (dw#) or the Tutu underscore. But anyway, there should be no real conflict in that respect. Given the way the game's AI system works, you can't really have 2 scripts running at once on the same creature anyway. So if you install SCSes after BP, the former's AI will generally prevail where they would be otherwise scripting the same actors. The reason we recommend installing BP first is because BP still overwrites some resources, so it needs to go early or you can end up with actors who have no AI at all (and worse problems perhaps). This will be changed in the next release (so if you want BP's AI to prevail over SCSes, you can install it after).

It wasn't the prefixes or the script file name that was the problem, it was the content of the scripts. SCSII would easily take BPMAGE18 as an example, or whatever it is called and clear it so only it's triggers and actions are in the script, thus BP actions no more. I think BP should go after SCSes as it would hopefully get the best of both worlds if BP doesn't bomb at installation. Don't know if that's been tried yet.

Here is Horred's reaction:

http://www.shsforums...post__p__452759

[spanyam]

If you can post the specific component warnings, it might help with better advice (I'm too lazy to go look at it ). In general, you should be "ok" installing BP before the SCSes.

Here are a few example components from the guide. I'm assuming that the ones mentioning "no overlap with SCS II" are safe to install. I've added my comments/questions in underline.

Spoiler

Big Picture Mods:
[Improved Small Teeth Pass, by Kensai Ryu]? [I]nstall
This component is also included in Tactics. Only one can be installed. No overlap with SCS II.

[Improved Kangaxx Encounter, by Kensai Ryu]? [I]nstall
This component is also included in Tactics. Only one can be installed.
This component overlaps with the SCSII component "Spellcasting Demiliches"

[Improved Abazigail]? [I]nstall
This component is also included with SCSII. Only install one of them.

[Improved Demogorgon]? [I]nstall
This component requires “Big Picture AI/Enhancement Mod” component to be installed. (SCSII specifically mentions that its component "Tougher Fiends" overwrites this)

[Improved Gromnir]? [I]nstall
This component requires “Big Picture AI/Enhancement Mod” component to be installed
This component is also included with SCSII. Only install one of them.

[Improved Illasera]? [I]nstall
This component requires “Big Picture AI/Enhancement Mod” component to be installed
This component is also included with SCSII. Only install one of them.

[Improved Yaga-Shura]? [I]nstall
This component requires “Big Picture AI/Enhancement Mod” component to be installed
This component is also included with SCSII. Only install one of them.

SCSII Mods:
[Smarter beholders]?
This component requires “Detectable spells and effects” to be installed.
This component corresponds to the Tactics component “Smarter Beholders”.
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don’t install both of them.
(The component list in the Big Picture section does not mention this component specifically. I'm guessing installing core BP itself will include this portion?)

[Smarter mind flayers]?
This component corresponds to the Tactics component “Improved Mind Flayers”.
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don’t install both of them.
(Again, cannot find this in the component list in the Big Picture. Also included in BP core?)

[Improved Vampires]? [I]nstall
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don’t install both of them.
Cannot find reference to vampires under BP, but the section under Tactics mentions that Kensai Ryu's Smarter Vampires is already included in BP. Again, is this integrated into BP core?

Install Component [Smarter Mages]?
Not together with the SpellPack's Shroud of Flame component and the Charm Plants, Guardian
Mantle, Persistence component.
If you install "Tougher Sendai" from Oversight then the improvements to Sendai in this component
will be skipped in favour of the Oversight ones.
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don’t install both of them.
(Again, I am not able to find any reference to smarter mages (or mages in general) under any of the Big Picture components. Is this also part of BP core? I would like to install the other SCSII component that enables enemy mages to use simulacrum and project image, but it claims to have no effect unless this component is installed. Is there any way to include this along with a BP installation?)

[Smarter Priests]?
If you install "Tougher Sendai" from Oversight then the improvements to Sendai in this component
will be skipped in favour of the Oversight ones.
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don’t install both of them.
Same scenario as the previous 5

[More resilient trolls]? [I]nstall
This component ist compatible with the Tactics component "Streamlined Trolls"!
Is that supposed to be "is" or "isn't"? "ist" could go either way.

[Improved Random Encounters]? [I]nstall
This component overwrites the improvements made by Ding0's QuestPack and the Big Picture
mod. Don’t install both of them.

[Improved d'Arnise Keep ("Tactics Remix")]?
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don’t install both of them.
Cannot find reference under BP. Part of BP core?

[Improved Bodhi (Tactics Remix)]? [I]nstall
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don’t install both of them.
Cannot find reference under BP. Part of BP core?

[Improved battle with Irenicus in Spellhold]? [I]nstall
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don’t install both of them.
Cannot find reference under BP. Part of BP core?

That's definitely quite a list there. There are, as you'll notice, many that SCSII claims are part of BP but are not specifically mentioned as a component by BP. In these cases (correct me if I'm wrong), I assume they are included with BP core. In that case, what will happen if I simply select both BP and the corresponding SCSII component to be installed from the BWS? Will BP go first or will SCS? Any idea about the end result?

I suppose that an alternative to all of this (if I really want SCS) would be to simply install BP-Ascension and leave the rest of BP alone. Is that advisable, or is BP required in order to maintain a fair level of balance across many of the other big mods?

Edited by spanyam, 22 December 2010 - 03:13 PM.

[Miloch]

It wasn't the prefixes or the script file name that was the problem, it was the content of the scripts. SCSII would easily take BPMAGE18 as an example, or whatever it is called and clear it so only it's triggers and actions are in the script, thus BP actions no more. I think BP should go after SCSes as it would hopefully get the best of both worlds if BP doesn't bomb at installation. Don't know if that's been tried yet.

Here is Horred's reaction:

http://www.shsforums...post__p__452759

That's quite the post to follow, what with wild mages, books, overwritten scripts and who knows what else . It's too bad horred *didn't* do a "weidu --change-log BPWTSIGT.bcs" as suggested, because it would've actually told him which mod changed that script (something he said he didn't think WeiDU could help with). But anyway, it just might have been an SCS. There's a reference to bpwtsigt in SCS2's wtasight.2da, and also something like this in its genai.tph:

ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~bpmaevar.bcs~ THEN BEGIN
  COPY_EXISTING ~wdasight.bcs~ ~override/bpwdasgt.bcs~ // Big Picture compatibility
  COPY_EXISTING ~wdarsgt.bcs~ ~override/bpwdrsgt.bcs~
END

This would effectively overwrite BP's scripts with vanilla ones (or perhaps SCS modified ones at this point in the install). I'll look into seeing why it's necessary, though SCS2's readme kind of already says it happens:

Big Picture

The core AI component of Big Picture is probably compatible with SCS II. Install that component first, then install whichever SCS II components you want (they will overwrite the corresponding bits of BP AI). I have confirmed that this combination will install but I don't guarantee that there aren't any minor bugs.

The other components of BP are also pretty likely to be compatible with SCS II (and don't really overlap with it). Again, install them first.

Note what it says about install order. Like I said, BP should still go first, at least until we convert it all to patching. SCS2 might overwrite scripts, but BP currently overwrites entire creatures, including whatever spells, items and scripts they have on them, so you could break a whole lot more by installing it later than by installing SCS later. This is mainly an issue for the BP-Ascension components currently, which should probably go where Ascension does in the BWP currently (before even the Fixpack, but I don't know if that's possible).

Here are a few example components from the guide. I'm assuming that the ones mentioning "no overlap with SCS II" are safe to install. I've added my comments/questions in underline.

I'll take a stab at it, but I'm not by any means an expert. Someone should really ask whoever wrote it - someone on the BWP team I'm guessing.

Also note that last sentence from SCS2's readme I bolded, about there being no overlap between SCS2 and BP's subcomponents. I'm guessing DavidW had a better grip on what he coded since BP was around when he did it, so I'd take his word for it. Though there may be questions still.

[Improved Kangaxx Encounter, by Kensai Ryu]? [I]nstall
This component is also included in Tactics. Only one can be installed.
This component overlaps with the SCSII component "Spellcasting Demiliches"

Requires further analysis and testing, but you should be ok installing both BP and SCS components. BP's overwrites Kangaxx (hldemi.cre) whereas SCS2 patches it, so install BP first. They do different things (Kensai Ryu adds other creatures for one thing).

[Improved Demogorgon]? [I]nstall
This component requires ?Big Picture AI/Enhancement Mod? component to be installed. (SCSII specifically mentions that its component "Tougher Fiends" overwrites this)

It says it *overrides* not overwrites. Although they're fairly synonymous, I think DavidW was talking primarily about the AI, though there are doubtless other changes. Again, I think you might be ok installing the BP/Ascension component first then SCS2 on top of it (and again, don't do it in reverse because BP and Ascension overwrite CREs whereas SCS appears to patch them).

[Improved Abazigail]? [I]nstall
This component is also included with SCSII. Only install one of them.
[Improved Gromnir]? [I]nstall
This component requires ?Big Picture AI/Enhancement Mod? component to be installed
This component is also included with SCSII. Only install one of them.
[Improved Illasera]? [I]nstall
This component requires ?Big Picture AI/Enhancement Mod? component to be installed
This component is also included with SCSII. Only install one of them.
[Improved Yaga-Shura]? [I]nstall
This component requires ?Big Picture AI/Enhancement Mod? component to be installed
This component is also included with SCSII. Only install one of them.

I'm not sure, but I think whoever wrote this got it wrong. These components are also included with *Ascension* not SCS2. Now what SCS2 says about its "Smarter Gromnir" components etc. is: "This component changes the AI of the Ascension version of Gromnir Il-Khan (and his flunkies) to match the SCS II norm... This component has no effect on the non-Ascension version of Gromnir (who is a standard fighter and gets modified by the "Smarter General AI" component)."

So in other words, and once again, install these components first from BP-Ascension, then install the SCS2 components *if* you want them to have the SCS2 AI, as noted. If you want them to have the BP/Ascension AI, don't install the SCS2 "Smarter Gromnir" etc.

[More resilient trolls]? [I]nstall
This component ist compatible with the Tactics component "Streamlined Trolls"!
Is that supposed to be "is" or "isn't"? "ist" could go either way.

I don't know, but "ist" means "is" in German (the official language of the BWP ). Then again, why would someone go out of his way to mention something *is* compatible - maybe because it has a similar name? Something to ask whoever wrote it again (Leonardo Watson or Leomar probably).

SCSII Mods:
[Smarter beholders]?
[Smarter mind flayers]?
[Improved Vampires]?
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don?t install both of them.

Install Component [Smarter Mages]?
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don?t install both of them.
(Again, I am not able to find any reference to smarter mages (or mages in general) under any of the Big Picture components. Is this also part of BP core? I would like to install the other SCSII component that enables enemy mages to use simulacrum and project image, but it claims to have no effect unless this component is installed. Is there any way to include this along with a BP installation?)
[Smarter Priests]?
[Improved d'Arnise Keep ("Tactics Remix")]?
[Improved Bodhi (Tactics Remix)]? [I]nstall
[Improved battle with Irenicus in Spellhold]? [I]nstall
This function is also included with Big Picture mod. Don?t install both of them.
Cannot find reference under BP. Part of BP core?

I don't know about these, but in the least, I think the BWP documentation is a bit misleading. I don't think the components are similar, as DavidW implies in the SCS2 readme. Though BP does similar things, it certainly doesn't do the same things and doesn't have any subcomponents of this nature that I know of.

So once again, you should be "ok" installing these after BP. If there are conflicts, SCS might take priority over BP, but that's what happens. Like I said, you can't have 2 different scripts running on the same creature at the same time anyway.

[spanyam]

Wow, thanks a ton for looking through this, Miloch. I guess the best thing to do would be to read through SCS(2)'s readmes to get a better grip on it first. From all of what you've said, it sounds okay to just do BP first then SCS, possibly skipping those components which give me cold feet. Since you specifically mention installing SCS after all of BP's components, would you recommend that I do a manual install (following the BWP guide for the most part) rather than going through BWS?

Edited by spanyam, 22 December 2010 - 10:09 PM.

[Miloch]

I'm pretty sure BWP/BWS still puts the SCSes after BP, so it should be ok. If not, report it in one of the BWS threads and dabus should fix it pretty quickly. Just go to "Customise components" in the BWS so you can pick which ones you want within each mod.

[spanyam]

Hmm, not to go in circles, but the version of SCS2's readme found here (which is for v15) says the following in regards to BP and Ascension:

Big Picture
My impression is that the latest version of Big Picture is largely incompatible with SCS II. I suggest installing one or the other.

Ascension
Ascension is fully compatible with SCS II. By default, Ascension enemies use their own scripts instead of SCS II scripts, although a number of components change this. (Note in particular that the Ascension "tougher Demogorgon" component is overridden by the "Improved Fiends" component of SCS II.

However, a number of reports suggest that SCS II is not compatible with "BP-Ascension", the version of Ascension that ships with the Big Picture. I recommend that you use the standard WEIDU version of Ascension (at www.weidu.org) with SCS II.

This certainly throws a wrench in things. Which version of SCS2's readme do you have on hand?

Edited by spanyam, 22 December 2010 - 10:47 PM.

[Miloch]

Which version of SCS2's readme do you have on hand?

The version I was looking at on my BWP install (which isn't that old - probably less than a year) is v11. So it's obviously incremented several versions to the current v15. On the other hand, BP has not changed significantly for some time, so I don't know what occurred to radically change DavidW's assessment. I guess I'll ask (in this thread, since we were already talking about it there). My guess is it's largely speculative, like a lot of this is. That is, no one's done an actual in-depth analysis of the possible conflicting code in the mods, or done comprehensive testing of mod A+B, B+C, A+C etc. to see if there any signficant differences or bugs. Of if someone has, I haven't seen the detailed reports.

[spanyam]

Okay, "final" installation be dashed for some time. I can help with testing the compatibility here, since it looks like this issue is pretty much at the "cutting edge." Both of Fennek's threads (in G3 and in our own BP forum) seem to contain the latest on this issue.

How can I help with this?

[Miloch]

How can I help with this?

Some code analysis would probably be quickest, but I guess I can do that unless you are a lurking WeiFU/IE whiz . Maybe some different testing scenarios would be good.

The best way would be to do a vanilla unmodded BG2 install. You can always do a new install to a different folder, even if you have BGT/BWP or something already. Then clone that unmodded BG2 folder to 1 or 2 other folders for testing (call them bg2test1 bg2test2 or whatever you want). You could install the BG2 Fixpack if you want, but it might be good *not* to (initially anyway) as it throws yet another variable in the mix.

On one, install just the BP components. Test some of the known crucial battles, like those from the "Improved" components. No need to play an entire game or even an entire battle - just load in the ToB party (or your own party - just don't import a save from a different install) and CLUA to the areas (use the IESDP for area codes if you need them). Just keep in mind this might "break" things if you visit certain areas before you're supposed to, but hopefully those things are known.

On the other, install just the SCS2 components and do the same thing.

Then install SCS2 on the first test with BP, and BP on the second test that has SCS2. Note if there's any obvious muck-ups. Also note any obvious differences or similarities. Maybe also your observations on which seems more playable to you for each component, as many folks have asked what the difference is between the 2 scripting systems (I don't think anyone can answer this short of doing this kind of testing).

You might want to keep one unmodded install as a "control" so you know what's supposed to happen without the AI mods.

If you want to get funky, you could throw Ascension in there too. Let's assume the BP-Ascension components are roughly equivalent for now though. I'm going to try to run some diffs to see if there are actuall differences to Weimer's version, and if so, what.

In my opinion, the mods should work like this:
1) Install Ascension-WeiDU
2) Install BP-Ascension components if you want #1 to use BP AI
3) Install SCS2-Ascension components if you want #1 to use SCS AI
4) Note there may be cases where #2 and #3 contravene each other, so try to choose one or the other for each subcomponent (or neither if so desired)

It sort of works that way, the main defect being #2 because it replicates the Ascension install rather than just patching it where necessary - hopefully we can get there eventually though.

[spanyam]

Some code analysis would probably be quickest, but I guess I can do that unless you are a lurking WeiFU/IE whiz . Maybe some different testing scenarios would be good.

Unfortunately, I have no knowledge of WeiDu's or IE's scripting language at this time, so I will not be of much help here.

As for the rest of the testing, I'd be glad to help. But before I start installing things and jumping in, I'd like to sort of reason out WHAT would even make sense to test in the first place. After reading through both of the mods' readmes, DavidW's comments, and your latest findings posted in G3, I have a better understanding of the situation. Now I'm questioning if it even makes sense to install both of them together at all.

It's like you have two different dessert options: peppermint icecream with chocolate chips (BP) and pumpkin cheesecake (SCSII). They're both fantastic desserts in their own right, but together, they probably taste like all sorts of ass. Wanting SCSII along with Ascension is like wanting pumpkin cheesecake with chocolate chips -- a perfectly reasonable recipe as well. But trying to make BP-Ascension work with SCSII is like yanking those chocolate chips out of the peppermint icecream and then sprinkling them on the cheesecake -- sure, they're chocolate chips, but they still have peppermint all over them, and you might still taste tiny bits of ass while eating that cheesecake.

Given this, here's what I feel might be gained from a mythical flawless simultaneous BP + SCSII installation:

• From what I understand, SCSII pretty much has an AI equivalent for almost all of what BP adds (unless the BP core AI component has a lot of unpublicized goodies in it). AI wise, there is no "better product" from a marriage of these two. It's either one or the other. In this case, I'm going to assume SCSII perfectly overrides all AI changes by BP.
  
• The use of an updated, bugfixed Ascension that implements SCSII AI (this is probably the most useful).
  
• All the goodies that BP adds also work with SCSII AI. The changes provided by BP's core AI component seem largely undocumented, with the most detailed description calling it "magic." I'm assuming that there is a hell of a lot more than just AI, but I have no idea what it is. If, in a perfect world, we get all of these nice additions working with SCSII's AI, then that can be counted as a definite gain.
  
• Improved Suldanessallar (assuming this only adds content and can be decoupled from BP's core AI component) works using SCSII AI.
  
• All of the "No overlap with SCSII" encounters (Small Teeth Pass, Crypt King, etc.) work perfectly and gain the AI improvements from SCSII (again assuming they are only content additions without sweeping AI changes).
  
• There is a heap of other stuff SCSII adds (like Spell tweaks, item tweaks, etc.). BP's readme says that it does fix and change a lot of spells and items, but there is really no documentation as to what actually gets changed. This part is totally dark to me.

I don't know if I missed anything. It seems that safest thing to test is how well BP-Ascension can work with SCSII, since that seems to be the biggest potential gain from a smooth BP + SCSII install (besides, Ascension isn't even available on BWS's modlist outside of BP). If my above assumption regarding BP's Core AI is correct, then that means that there is a heck of a lot going on in there that is not documented otherwise (items/spells/creatures being added, altered, etc.), which means that installing that along with SCSII could potentially lead to all sorts of problems. The potential gain also doesn't seem to be very high from managing a working BP core along with SCSII.

Given all this, would you like me to test out just BP-Ascension along with SCSII? And would you still like me to test out a simultaneous install of both BP Core + SCSII anyway?

Edited by spanyam, 23 December 2010 - 05:50 PM.

[Dakk]

It's like you have two different dessert options: peppermint icecream with chocolate chips (BP) and pumpkin cheesecake (SCSII). They're both fantastic desserts in their own right, but together, they probably taste like all sorts of ass. Wanting SCSII along with Ascension is like wanting pumpkin cheesecake with chocolate chips -- a perfectly reasonable recipe as well. But trying to make BP-Ascension work with SCSII is like yanking those chocolate chips out of the peppermint icecream and then sprinkling them on the cheesecake -- sure, they're chocolate chips, but they still have peppermint all over them, and you might still taste tiny bits of ass while eating that cheesecake.

Everything else aside - this is mods explained in gastronomic excellence! Also, nominated for Best Random Use Of "ass" 2010.

[Hoppy]

It's like you have two different dessert options: peppermint icecream with chocolate chips (BP) and pumpkin cheesecake (SCSII). They're both fantastic desserts in their own right, but together, they probably taste like all sorts of ass. Wanting SCSII along with Ascension is like wanting pumpkin cheesecake with chocolate chips -- a perfectly reasonable recipe as well. But trying to make BP-Ascension work with SCSII is like yanking those chocolate chips out of the peppermint icecream and then sprinkling them on the cheesecake -- sure, they're chocolate chips, but they still have peppermint all over them, and you might still taste tiny bits of ass while eating that cheesecake.

Did you just complete a dessert making class or something?

Any way, any of BP's elements might get overwritten by SCSII. All you have to do is install full BP and compnents and then SCSII after it to get a general idea for compare and contrast. If you see BP's influence in the scripts along with SCSII's then bonus and I will have to install them both again and discover this new found wonder although it is tough to anticipate how it all works playing the game. If no BP influence, then what you truly get is the one installed last, wins. It is the content of the scripts and not the filename that is truly the mystery.

It'll take a little bit of time to see what is happening but a much longer time to see what actual components will go well together as that will need testing beyond the bounds of successful installations together.

I think that when I do one of my own custom installations based on BWP and ignoring readme's, I will install BP after SCSII and see what comes up or if there is anyway to help them combine forces. I'll let you know.