41 replies to this topic

[yarpen]

You'll still have a lot of experience available from finishing large quests, finishing chapters of game. Well, I'm not a fan of being PnP purist, so I didn't mean to make game unplayable because of rules of AD&D. But sometimes those ideas aren't so bad. I didn't mean to make Saradush guardians 1st level fighters (ok, I meant it few posts ago), let's make them 10th level and add some mercenaries with 13-14th. Suddenly Death Strike isn't so lame anymore. And most important: Saradush guardians aren't close to level of Irenicus anymore. ^^'

Edited by yarpen, 06 December 2010 - 05:13 AM.

[Zyraen]

I actually spent some time writing some dialogues somewhere. Its been sitting on my desktop for maybe 3 years now.
The general premise goes to add plot and options that affect the main plot of ToB without changing the overall direction (ie. the PC kills the one opposing him. like, DUH). I hated the railroaded idea in ToB that I don't have the basic brains to actually pit the many enemies against each other.

For ease of reference, I'll just call the whole thing as TOB Plots

======================

The first bit Illasera providing some challenge, not just hack-n-slash wise, but rather taking Elhan hostage demanding the Elven City hand you over. While there is some Hack-n-Slash involved in you getting to her, when you get to her place, you get some Roleplay choices in and all, and may (or may not, lol) rescue Elhan.
If Elhan dies you'll suffer a large Rep loss.
If you're not careful you'll be easily killed.
Illasera also should have a tougher AI.

======================

The second bit involves Yaga-Shura vs Gromnir.
Right from the start in entering Saradush, Melissan gives you the option to explore outside of Saradush to find Yaga Shura's heart.
During this arc, you get the option to parley with either Gromnir or Yaga Shura. If successful you can plot to team up against the other.
After one is dead, the other will show up if he's not already there. Regardless, both end up dead.

Gromnir's arc involves helping his barracks with some task (I can't remember if its in ToB canon) in the sewers, clearing out stuff, and while they brush you off, they agree to at least give you some legroom in town.
Thereafter, when you meet him, you have the chance to complete the (very difficult. think like a madman) task of parleying with him. If you succeed, he agrees to aid you against Yaga-Shura and will join the fight when Yaga Shura returns with reinforcements.

For Yaga Shura, you can enter his camp to parley with him AFTER you get his heart. You need his heart to have a chance to parley with him, you can negotiate for the lives of the city folk as well. Yaga Shura is much more level headed than Gromnir.

At any point of time after making an agreement with either party, you can go back to visit them again, which will result in violence (attempted) against your person. At any point in a joint battle you can also double-cross your ally.

A few side options have also been written, including

- sparing the vampire in the Dungeon, called Phlydian (I think). in return you have the option to enlist her aid against either one of the targets (your choice which one), but the battle MUST take place in Saradush at night. this means you can use her only if you open the Gate. If you pick Gromnir, she shows up from the beginning once he shows up, otherwise she only shows up as and when your ally (Yaga Shura) turns red.

- a shortcut into the Fire Temple. Chinchilla and company, instead of being meaningless canon-fodder, can now deploy their many cute transformations to shrink your whole party into bunnies temporarily (aka wild magic) and you can sneak into the innermost temple. The only way out though is straight out. You can parley with them or threaten them, and if you threaten them to assist you in the transformation.. well. think LOGICAL what would they do after you're all a bunch of bunnies ?

None of the above have been scripted / coded in any way. Many of the initial dialogues for this segment has been written, including Parleys with Yaga Shura, Gromnir, as well as full dialogues with Phlydian and Chinchilla.

(break.. next post lol)

Edited by Zyraen, 07 December 2010 - 06:41 PM.

[Zyraen]

The last bit is a revamp of the Amkethran plot, probably the most ambitious thing about the whole TOB Plots concept.

There are 4 factions involved
- the Tethyrian Army
- Balthazar & his Monks
- Sendai & the Dark Elves
- Abazigal & his minions, plus the notorious Draconis

Similar to Improved Oasis, the Tethyrian army will not necessarily fight you. They will go further, to assist you to rid the threat of the Bhaalspawn, if you impress General Jamis suitably.
If you feel you have enough allies, You may also choose to leave them out of the conflict, encamping them at Amkethran. Assuming you do this, you can give secret instructions to ambush Balthazar's forces if he is retreating from a lost battle.

Balthazar will ally with you against the others, if he feels you are trustworthy and powerful enough.

Sendai will ally with you only if you have your own army (ie the Tethyrian army) or Balthazar on your side, against Abazigal that she deems the greatest threat and the one least likely to tolerate any others being alive after all is said and done. You also have to get through a few challenges to have chance to parley with her representative.

Abazigal is the main antagonist in this segment, with his forces considered by both Balthazar and Sendai as the most difficult to handle (not necessarily the most numerous), and himself viewed as the most intolerant.

However, his son Draconis has some interest in "inheriting" his father's "throne" earlier. Before making any move, you can try and convince Draconis of the benefit you might bring him, and he'll let you leave without a fight.

Majority of the "joint armies" scenes actually occur at the frontdoor of Abazigal's lair (probably the most wide open area and easily accessible area for that segment of ToB).

=================================

PART A - ABAZIGAL

1) 3 Factions ( Balthazar, Sendai, Tethyrian Army) vs Abazigal

Abazigal will not emerge to lead his troops. basically you will have some army battle at the front of his castle where Draconis will be fighting. You can persuade Draconis to flee the field, or you can kill him. regardless, it'll probably be an easy win.
Sendai will return to reorganise, as will the Tethyrian Army return home after that. Balthazar will continue with you.

Thereafter you enter his lair, you have the option to explore around, or just go straight to the ending where the Yellow Dragon is.
After you kill Abazigal, Balthazar will turn on you. Alternatively you can persuade him out of it, and he will meet you after you dispose of Sendai.

2) Any 2 Factions vs Abazigal

Abazigal emerges to lead his troops. Basically, this battle can go either way. Whichever side suffers the most losses, and whose leader gets seriously injured, will retreat.

If Abazigal retreats, the rest of it is the same as the earlier scenario, except that you will have to fight Draconis before entering.

If Draconis is on your side, he will seal the gates behind Abazigal preventing his retreat. He will not be able to escape and you can slay him at the gates.
If only Sendai is around after Abazigal is killed, she will turn on you after that.
If only Balthazar is around after Abazigal is killed, he will turn on you or you can persuade him out of it, and meet him after disposing of Sendai.
Note that after this happens, at any time you can still enter Abazigal's lair and clean it up on inside if you like.

If both are around after Abazigal, both will retreat to their own bases.

If the Tethyrian Army is encamped at Amkethran and has instructions to waylay Balthazar, after Balthazar retreats, there will be a timer, thereafter he will return with less forces and (HP-wise) weaker. You can kill him there or parley with him.

If you leave the area before the timer is up, you will encounter him in Amkethran with the Tethyrian army setting upon him. Likewise, you can kill or parley with him.

The Tethyrian army will depart at the end of Part A if they were deployed in any way, including against Balthazar.

Part B - SENDAI & BALTHAZAR

If they have not already been deployed, the Tethyrian army will accompany you to assault her. This will leave the way to her room more or less open, you can waltz in without any side trips.

Regardless, at the end of this segment, the Tethyrian Army will attack you at the end of Part B, ambushing you outside Sendai's lair.

If you already killed them at the Oasis, a new force will be there to handle you, and you will kill them, no two ways about it.

If it was the force that you met and parleyed with at the Oasis, then you can kill them all or try to uncharm General Jamis. If you succeed, the fight ends.

If Balthazar is not already dead and not yet parleyed with you, you can then command the troops for the last time to assist you in your assault against Amkethran. Storm Balthazar's monastery.

If you parleyed with Balthazar, the Amkethran army will accompany you to him. They will assist you to kill him if the final talk goes badly, else Balthazar agrees to join you against Melissan (similar to Ascension) and the Tethyrian army slinks off home for good.

PART C

Nothing much to be said here. You go to Pocketplane, and the Finale happens. Like Ascension, if Balthazar is with you, he shows up.

[yarpen]

Wow, just wow. Sounds complicated - but still your vision has probably the most of things that normal Trone of Bhaal was lacking: true epicness, intrigues and decisions. Well, if you'd be able to create it - count me in as betatester/player.

[Zyraen]

I can code most of the army movements using Silmarillion dynamic CRE AIs and using the default Game CREs as a base.
The main problem is that I'm lacking motivation regards almost all my modding projects due to RL constraints.

It would be WONDERFUL to have a single joint-project-mate to be my pacer so things can get going.
Probably will be doing the following:
- Writing Dialogue & Choices : I totally, totally, totally suck at writing Choices and coming up with branches. Finding the right places in the default DLGs to insert / interject the dialogues. This is generally very timeconsuming but GUI-easy with NearInfinity.
- The Right BAMs : this is the part I usually spend the most time on with the least results. basically it involves trying to find combinations of colors (most are not accessible to the default created character), outfits (leather armor, platemail, etc), weapons (katanas, scimitars, longswords? glowing blue red or white? frequency of glowing?) for NPCs. This requires some familiarity with NearInfinity, nothing that cannot easily be taught through MSN though.
- AI Suggestions : just be able to bounce ideas off / on and critique what a decent AI will have to do. Not that important for this mod, really. You don't need to know how to code for this, but should be familiar with most of the spells and stuff (cheese included) that players may use.
- Playtest Segment by Segment (probably means being familiar with CLUAConsole and some basic idea how to sift through BAFs)

Edited by Zyraen, 07 December 2010 - 06:43 PM.

[Kaeloree]

I can attest to the fact that Zyraen's improved ToB is pretty awesome-looking.

Despite your dislike of writing dialogue, you're pretty good at it, Z

[Zyraen]

I love dialogue but I suck at choices. I'm sure you totally know that

[Cykuta]

While this direction is not the one I was thinking of for ToB, it is a very good one. Another problem with Throne is that the PC is, supposedly, the most powerful bhaalspawn (else why would they rush off to kill the Five?), and yet at the same time they are a dumb lackey of the questgiver, going where they are told to go and killing who they're told to kill. It kind of clashes with the whole "force to be reckoned with" image.

[Zyraen]

As a teaser / sample, some of the dialogues I have already did up. They're quite dated, about 3 years old or more. The dalogue labels are not present, but its fairly straightforward I think.

The first line of each dialogue would be vaguely familiar to those who remember some portions of ToB

SARVAM01 2 ~You... you are a powerful one of your kind. I can smell the murder in your heart. You shall never let us live, I would think.~
++ ~If you prove useful to me, perhaps I could let you live.~
++ ~Just let me pass through in peace. I have no quarrel with you.~
++ ~Quite right. Meet your end, vampire!~ SARVAM01 1

~Is that so? Hmm...your blood may be sweet, but existence is sweeter. Come, my children, let us depart swiftly before the Bhaalspawn changes <PRO_HISHER> mind.~

~Useful to you? What do you have in mind, godling? ~
++ ~Just like you, I crave the blood of gods. And you will help me murder them, vampire.~
++ ~I would welcome another ally against my siblings. Will you aid me against them?~
++ ~I've changed my mind. Meet your end, vampire!~ SARVAM01 1
++ ~Forget it. Just let me pass through in peace. I have no quarrel with you.~

~Ah... I sense sweet opportunity. Which brother or sister of yours would you wish consumed in my fangs?~
++ ~Gromnir Il-Khan.~
++ ~Yaga-Shura.~
++ ~I've changed my mind. Meet your end, vampire!~ SARVAM01 1
++ ~Forget it. Just let me pass through in peace. I have no quarrel with you.~

~You..! You would make sport and mockery of us, godling?!~
= ~The one you name is powerful far beyond the reach of my fangs! You ask too much!~
++ ~Too powerful, even if I was fighting against him at the same time?~ +
++ ~Then you are useless to me. Meet your end, vampire!~ SARVAM01 1
++ ~Forget it. Just let me pass through in peace. I have no quarrel with you.~

~Ah... then we have an agreement. But my hunting grounds are limited, Bhaalspawn.~
= ~Bring the one you desire killed into the streets of Saradush at night, and then I will be able to strike.~
++ ~Fair enough. I will make the necessary arrangements.~
++ ~Far too troublesome, I say. Meet your end, vampire!~ SARVAM01 1
++ ~Forget it. Just let me pass through in peace. I have no quarrel with you.~

~I depart now with my children. Return here when the time draws near for your need of my fangs. I will be waiting eagerly.~

And in the finest traditions of a certain butler...

~Oh no! We've been discovered, my Bhaalspawn friends! Fight! Fiiighhht!!~
END
++ ~Wait, who are you? I am a Bhaalspawn too and I mean no harm.~
++ ~Fine, if its a fight you want, a fight you get.~

~Aiiiieeee!! Fight, fiiiiighht!~

~Oh erm... you are? What... what are you doing here?!~
END
++ ~I could ask the same of you. Why did you come to the temple?~
++ ~There is something that I need to find inside the temple.~
++ ~I tire of this conversation. Time for you to die.~

~Come to Temple? What, come here? No! It is a bad baaaadd place, hot, very hot.~
= ~We were brought here! They promised safety, in here, many many many Bhaalspawn. We were happy to be avoiding all armies and the fighting.~
= ~Then... then the giants, they pulled out big, biiiiiggg nasty axes! Lots of fighting, lots of blood! We few here, change small, hide in holes, try find waaaay out~
= ~Now, we just come out of it, and trying to think where to go. Not want be around here much longer.~
END
++ ~Change small? What do you mean by that?~
++ ~You're not making much sense, but if you wish to go I won't stop you.~
++ ~Oh no, you're not going anywhere without a fight.~

~Okay, right, we'll be going now. Going to go, going to run. Run, run from here!~

~Oh we were lucky, indeed. Chinchilla became small first, then decide make all small, into rabbits.~
= ~We all come out, tunnelling. It was not easy, but happy to be out, now to get away from here.~
END
++ ~Any chance you could turn us into rabbits as well so we can enter the temple?~
++ ~You're not making much sense, but if you wish to go I won't stop you.~
++ ~Oh no, you're not going anywhere without a fight.~

~Want to enter temple? You've been hit hard by big, bad giants. You should be going to see cleric.~
END
++ ~I'm serious, I need to go into the temple to find something to stop Yaga-Shura.~
++ ~You're not making much sense, but if you wish to go I won't stop you.~
++ ~Oh no, you're not going anywhere without a fight.~

~Erm.. ok. You want going in, I'll not be stopping you. The hole is just over there. But rabbits, rabbits magic is not easy.~
= ~I am tired, forget much magic, but if have some money help us to find good inns for many many days, I will try my best to remember.~
= ~Not asking much money, just maybe, 1000 gold? Surely Bhaalspawn can afford.~
END
++ ~All right, here's 1000 gold, now let your spell begin.~
++ ~I will give you 750 gold, no more and no less.~
++ ~I will give you 500 gold, that's all I can spare.~
++ ~I will give you 250 gold, that's the most I will give to you.~
++ ~Tell you what, cast your spell and I will not kill the lot of you.~ (to Yikes!)
++ ~Never mind, I'll find the way in myself, and you can make a move.~
++ ~I tire of this conversation. Time for you to die.~

~This money not enough. At least 600, maybe? Please, we do want a nice place to stay. Not here, here is hot, very hot.~
END
++ ~All right, here's 600 gold, now let your spell begin.~
++ ~I will give you 500 gold, that's all I can spare.~
++ ~I will give you 250 gold, that's the most I will give to you.~
++ ~Tell you what, cast your spell and I will not kill the lot of you.~ (to Yikes!)
++ ~Never mind, I'll find the way in myself, and you can make a move.~
++ ~I tire of this conversation. Time for you to die.~

~No, that is too little. Please, not asking much, just 600.~
END
++ ~All right, here's 600 gold, now let your spell begin.~
++ ~Tell you what, cast your spell and I will not kill the lot of you.~ (to Yikes!)
++ ~Never mind, I'll find the way in myself, and you can make a move.~
++ ~I tire of this conversation. Time for you to die.~

~Oh okay then. Stand back, never used this magic before, could be...~
= ~No wait, I did use this magic before, just that I ...~
= ~Whoops!~
(transformation)

~Yikes! All right, all right... stand back, never used this magic before, could be...~
= ~No wait, I did use this magic before, just that I ...~
= ~Whoops!~
(transformation)
~Rabbits! They're rabbits... now we fight! Fiiighhht!!~

Edited by Zyraen, 08 December 2010 - 09:15 AM.

[yarpen]

Well, I can always try to help with BAMs. I've already made few of those in my life.

[yarpen]

this seems vw=ery interesting you could have watcher keep be longer make it have 10 lvs with new items for cespenar to upgrade you could travel back to athkatla and have new quests your character could have a max lv of 60 then choses to end the game and restart as lv 1 in a new dungeon like wtchers keep exept fo lv 1 characters it and by the last lv of the dungeon the character would be lv seven it would be fun you could be able to have all magical items from bg1 in the begginers dungeon and have the monsters holding the items like in watchers keep and have the tomes actually worth more then 1 gp on the book shelves you cold have the machine of Mad marv you could gain magic resistance

Why it sounds for me like a attempt of trolling? Am I the only one?

[Silvi]

it looks like snake without punctuation, but I like the last idea in that neverending chain.

[Gelscressor]

There are indeed some...issues with Throne of Bhaal, certainly story-wise. There really ought to be more political stuff, things like Zyraen suggested for instance.

However, there also should be vastly more divine politics as well. There's really not a satisfactory reason why Cyric himself doesn't simply murder somebody who is a direct threat to his power. Certainly, it not be worth his attention at first, but at the final fight with Melissan; do you really think he's just going to watch how he might lose his portfolio of murder?

Of course not. It could be said that Ao ensures he doesn't for...whatever reasons Ao might have, but I..don't really buy that. Remember how Cyric assassinated Leira, the Goddess of Illusions, in her own plane, and took over her portfolio? This wasn't even in the Time of Troubles. There were no negative repercussions for Cyric whatsoever.

Instead, there could be a more realistic reason for Cyric to not interfere directly. If CHARNAME isn't evil, I imagine a number of gods (like the Triad and Mystra) might be willing to support CHARNAME if it leads to Cyric losing the portfolio of murder. When it comes to evil PC's, you can bet Mask wants revenge for Cyric's treachery as well (the whole Godsbane debacle and all that).

Relatively recent developments among the divine are also of interest. Throne of Bhaal starts in late 1369 or so, if IIRC. By that time, Velsharoon has become a deity; as has Iyachtu Xvim. Both have a relatively strong enmity for Cyric. Naturally, there are also old cultists of the Dark Triad (Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul) that did not convert to Cyric; some of which who might be keen to see CHARNAME become the new Lord of Murder. Talos also has been known to sponsor mortals to achieve divinity. It also might be an idea to have Throne of Bhaal start at a later date, such as mid 1372, as this comes with a rather major change in the heavens...the return of Bane. Bane, being the deity that could be considered to be Cyric's greatest enemy. There's also more than just Faerun...infernal or abyssal sponsorship could be acquired. If you release Demogorgon; maybe he just might be willing to offer the Bhaalspawn some support. On the other hand, if you imprison him; the Dark Ministry might be very pleased indeed...

Needless to say, it doesn't just have to be CHARNAME when it comes to divine/extraplanar support. Perhaps Draconis or his father is supported by Tiamat...if only to devour either of them when they attain godhood; just like she did with Tchazzar. On that note, its certainly possible for CHARNAME to be backstabbed too!

Don't get me wrong though. When I'm talking about support, I'm not talking about direct interference of powers. There shouldn't, uh, be any gods showing up to join fights. But they certainly could offer aid through their servants. And, as mentioned above, make Cyric think twice about trying to directly slay CHARNAME.

[Choo Choo]

Well, the reason Cyric can't interfere is because he (and all other gods) are, indeed, forbidden to do so by Ao.

[Picollo]

Yes, they are forbidden, but 4th trial shows, that there aren't things that could be bypassed if somebody really wants to

[Gelscressor]

Well, the reason Cyric can't interfere is because he (and all other gods) are, indeed, forbidden to do so by Ao.

They are forbidden in the default game, yeah. But I think that it doesn't really make much sense, if you look at the history of Faerun; why would CHARNAME get a special treatment from Ao? I think that the Throne of Bhaals developers simply wanted an excuse as to avoid the added complexity of divine politics.

[Kaeloree]

It's not <CHARNAME>, it's the whole saga. The gods aren't allowed to interfere with the Bhaalspawn in general, because otherwise it would result in another war of the Gods that would again spill into the mortal plane.

Ao forbade the pantheon from interfering because otherwise armageddon--or something similar--would have come about.

In terms of the actual game mechanics and such, of course it's an excuse to avoid divine politics. It's a very convincing explanation for why the Gods don't intervene, and why it isn't a much bigger issue than it is. It's also something that most BGII/ToB players know.

The fact that Ao told the gods not to interfere is only mentioned in a few dialogues (Cyric and the Solar), so it wouldn't necessarily be difficult to excise it from the game. Nothing's stopping a modder from doing that and rethinking things a bit.

[Eric P.]

Zyraen's idea absolutely must be made into a mod!

Bravo,
Eric