41 replies to this topic

[yarpen]

Alternative Throne of Bhaal expansion

Well, everyone know that Throne of Bhaal in it's current shape sucks. It's hard to say something positive about it as an ending of epic Bhaalspawn saga. Most of it includes terrific amount of hack'n'slash with usually overpowered enemies who are artifically toughtened up enough to present some danger to allmighty guy who just beat up Irenicus. Well, it's one of its worst part. I don't find fighting with 20+ level city guards who's equipment is full of generic +3 items rewarding. It's just unnatural to see those guys to be close to Irenicus's level just by being guards of some little city.

Also, it's just plainly boring and artifically lenghtned up. Side quests are too shallow to make player interested, main plot is too chaotic and linear. Damn, for some players ToB is just a plain disaster. Some people tried to make it a bit more interesting (DavidW's Wheel of Prophecy, Gaider's Ascension, there was also interesting mod idea at CoM) but even fixed, ToB is ToB. Grinding levels till getting 40th level (I want to remind that in PnP 30th was preserved mainly for god's avatars). And some people even plays with 50th level rulesets.

My thought was - why instead of patching and fixing something what is screwed from it's base, create something alternative using existing areas, characters, situations and main plot (because it was intended by Bioware).

My idea is to make all of your Pocket Plane challenges... well, far more extensive. Removing original ToB map and making some situations available only trough Pocket Plane will cut most of the boring stuff (bringing Holy Water or finding spy in sieged city?! hey, I've did that with my 2nd level party in IWD2!) and just get plain essence.

Imagine this: in first Pocketplane challenge Solar shows you siege of Saradush in time of Assalut. There's Yaga-Shura, his army, legions of Saradush's guards. You can decide: do you want to protect this city or wait till it's army gonna crush everything and then *blink* you're teleported to challenge Yaga-Shura! No boring quests, instead of constant boring hack'n'slashes you've got one epic fight and finally... some true moral decisions! Something rather uncommon in ToB.

Well, I've wrote just some random thoughts. If someone have better ideas or he wants to make this thing really happen in form of mod, I'd love to see that. Waiting for replies!

[Igneous]

Apparently, there was a large-scale conversion of Throne of Bhaal planned some years ago. The mod was to be called 'Prophecy of Alaundo,' and it was discussed quite recently, in fact.

I would love to see something of this scope and calibre materialise, but I understand the workload would be immense.

[yarpen]

Well, it was much larger-scale mod and added a lot of modder's content. My concept is to cut boring parts of Throne of Bhaal and intensify that what is interesting, and add some flavour to PocketPlane trials (by making those as fights with Bhaalspawn's Five in certain surrounding). Instead of whole expansion, you've got something like 10 epic scenes where you have large possibilities of role-playing and decisions to do. It allows to reduce modder's work to not-so-huge and ToB remain as quite interesting finisher of BG Saga. But that's only my opinion...

[Picollo]

Well, it was much larger-scale mod and added a lot of modder's content. My concept is to cut boring parts of Throne of Bhaal and intensify that what is interesting, and add some flavour to PocketPlane trials (by making those as fights with Bhaalspawn's Five in certain surrounding). Instead of whole expansion, you've got something like 10 epic scenes where you have large possibilities of role-playing and decisions to do. It allows to reduce modder's work to not-so-huge and ToB remain as quite interesting finisher of BG Saga. But that's only my opinion...

Hmm... Strange idea cause it's completly opposite, to what happens in moddin scene. Everybody tends to expand BG, and add new content. And you want to cut as much as possible. If I really believe, that there is no hope for saving ToB, then I'd say It's great idea. But I see a lot of places, where ToB can be expanded, with not so much changes to general ToB concept. Let's limit Pocket Plane a bit. Why we can jump to place, where why have never been? Let's force party to travel across tethyr, to get in Saradush. And during it we can have lot of adventures. So many possibilities, to bulid feeling, how Bhaalspawn are threated in those times. Another possibility to place quests. We just killed Y-S, and we're talking to Melissan. Why she don't tell us, that we should get support, before we will face Sendai and Abazigal? Maybe some druids are unhappy that Bhaalspawns are breaking balance? Some rebels from Myratma will help, if we can help them with queen of tethyr? Or help her, and general Jamis could help us? Then we could get ability "call for help", and when we're fighting against Abazigal, some tethyrian soliders could be summoned as a reinforcements?

Lot's of possibilities. And I do not see this feeling, we ned to hurry up, or everything will be lost.

Why, when we leave Saradush, don't tell Melissan, f*** it all, i do not want to be inolved in it, and come back to Candlekeep? And another morning see army of dragons led by Abazigal, attacking library?

[Turambar]

I think that the main problem in ToB is the absolute absence of side-quests and side-areas (which is, on the other hand, the great thing in BG1).
I don't think we should really change it; from what I know, there are already some mods (such as Wheel of Prophecy) which should change the main plot.
I think that ToB really needs a specific megamod, similar to what DSotSC and NTotSC are for BG1, with new NPCs, areas, quests, which allow to go around a bit, instead of just going where someone tells you to go (which reminds me if IWD2: I think that both IWD2 and ToB are very poor in side-quests).
For example, there could be someone in Amerkethran who knows of an ancient dungeon nearby, from which no-one has never returned alive; you could suddently bump into a wizard from a school of dark magic, and so on. Of course, you can decide to investigate or not, but at least you have something else to do than killing your 5 brothers and Amelyssan

Edited by Turambar, 29 October 2010 - 09:49 AM.

[Fury945]

Sendai was a woman so that would be 4 brothers and a sister.
How about changing the the main quest and adding a lot of new side quests (ToB should be about the same size as SoA afterall it is an expansion) there should also be a better story surrounding it.

[Picollo]

Sendai was a woman so that would be 4 brothers and a sister.

Sorry, but Illasera either wasn't brother.

How about changing the the main quest and adding a lot of new side quests (ToB should be about the same size as SoA afterall it is an expansion) there should also be a better story surrounding it.

Of course, gie me a week, and I'll release it.

That's what we're discussing here. But making every quest is not so simple. It requires few things:
-time
-abilities
-time
-patience
-ideas
-have I mentioned time?

So, yes, it would be cool, to have ToB same size as SoA. But nobody wants to make it. (Not counting few moders who made really cool mods for ToB)

[Fury945]

Explaining exactly what I thought was just too hard to describe, sorry if I was repeating what was already said.
I did forget about Illasera but that may be because she's the first one of the five to be killed and it only takes 2 minutes (if you do it right) so she only has a small part in ToB.
as for what it requires to do it it would probably require the whole Bioware team to do properly.
I wasn't asking for it to be made I was just commenting on how good the could be if it was made and done properly.

Edited by Fury945, 31 October 2010 - 10:41 PM.

[Turambar]

I did forget about Illasera but that may be because she's the first one of the five to be killed and it only takes 2 minutes (if you do it right) so she only has a small part in ToB.

BP-Ascension should improve her, but I haven't used it yet

it would probably require the whole Bioware team to do properly.
I wasn't asking for it to be made I was just commenting on how good the could be if it was made and done properly.

What we could do, I think, is to open a kind of workroom, where anyone who has any ideas can post them, anyone who creates a resource can post it, and we can discuss it. It may take ages, but if we start gathering ideas somethingk might come out. And if we work together, we'll probably find someone who's good at drawing areas, someone who's good at scripting, coding, dialogues,...

[Chevalier]

I did forget about Illasera but that may be because she's the first one of the five to be killed and it only takes 2 minutes (if you do it right) so she only has a small part in ToB.

BP-Ascension should improve her, but I haven't used it yet

Oh, Yes it does.

[Cykuta]

My my, look who's suddenly got all ambitious

I'm not saying this is a bad idea. I would love to have an expansion I'm actually interested in. But honestly, if you want to get it right, you'd need to make a whole new game. That said, the side areas and side quests definitely are what ToB needs. I agree it would benefit greatly from adding some space, some villages with people in great fear of bhaalspawn, marauding soldiers from Yaga-Shura's army... As it is, we only hack our way through dungeons, period. That's what put me off IWD.

[Fury945]

when you take on Yaga-Shura you're up against a whole army that doesn't stop coming until Yaga-Shura's dead.
unlike a dungeon, it gets really annoying it's almost as if you are in a giant battle arena and the only way out is guarded so heavily you don't want to leave an army is one thing but a continuous flood of enemies is just downright impossible to win against. and unlike when you cut the head off a creatures body an army usually doesn't stop fighting, sure theres a lack in morale but they keep fighting until there is more of the enemy than them. which is another thing that annoys me about Yaga-Shura's army, they just disappear, even their bodies. Cykuta is correct though there are too many dungeons there should only be one, maybe two if you include Watchers Keep. sorry if I'm not making any sense

Edited by Fury945, 28 November 2010 - 08:45 PM.

[Silvi]

From a gamers point of view: yes, ToB is a disaster gameplay wise, but also plot-wise. It feels like an overdragged finale that is there just to fill the space.

As for levels: it suffers from one of the faults of every fantasy game: the backward logic (i.e.: the peasants from the first village a player encounters should just hire guards from the few final villages instead of asking PC for help).
Is there a way to fix it, though? Imagine going to Saradush to kill weak, level 19 guards. You could mow through them and stop only on the higher-level enemies (vampires, bosses). You could probably kill the guards in 1-2 hits (currently it takes about 5 I think, so suddenly the difference seems small). Giants would be more demanding because of their size. Even if the Bhaalspawn is, well, a Bhaalspawn, hacking down something that big would be hard. I'm having issues with giants being resistant to a lot of things or having -10 armour (I'm overexagerrating but I had a situation I kept missing a giant. How can you even manage that? Thing is freakin' big). They should have a lot of HP, sure, but their level shouldn't be too high. Foot soldiers don't tend to be overbuffed much.

One thing I have to say about the dragons in this game is that they could kick Firekraag's ass easily, and the red dragon was supposed to be unstoppable. I know it's all to make the game 'equal challenge' but the logic is lost.

I like the idea of breaking the game apart and rebuilding it. I also would like a chance to really use the pocket plane to travel (mostly because it seems visiting Candlekeep just before going for the Throne would give it a cinematic feel. "Look at the past, look what you've become, look what you are going for" sort of thing).

It feels too much like a bad dungeon crawl, too. Saradush? Sewercrawl. Yaga Shura place? Dungeon. Abazigal? Dungeon... The dungeons were also sometimes confusing, included a lot of circling through the same areas (maybe some would call it puzzles, but I call it trial and error).

Anyway I'm all for this project. I'd love to see ToB reworked (in a decade. I mean, those things take time. I bet it'd take years but it would be worth it).

One thing that would be a major issue are all the NPC mods that have ToB content. Oops...

[yarpen]

Thanks for this post Silvi. Well, you're talking now about far wider problem of challenge scailing in BG2. It sucks. I don't think that making ToB guards 1st level peasants is really a bad idea - because then instead of 9000 xp per guard (that's 1/5 of RED DRAGON) you'll get 20xp or even nothing. Change like this would change game as overall, levels would be far harder to get, you should end up with something like 30th level at the end of game (which is very correct PnP-wise, because levels after 30 are for Gods only). Did you knew that in PnP the oldest version of Red Dragon (which is one of the most powerfull dragons) is worth "only" 26k xp? Instead of 56k? That'd change game a lot, but needs a lot of work - because you'll have to not only fix monsters xp reward and monsters as overall but also quests.

[Silvi]

Cheers!
Level capacity is something I liked about the first NWN, it set limit on 20 for the base game and 30 for the HotU extension, I believe -> no godly levels for everyone.
It feels weird to lead a party of demigods at the end of ToB... They could overpower a small country with just the 6 of them... >_>'

Changing the level of monsters sounds interesting, actually, since the game wouldn't be a speed cruzin' level gaining. But you know what we'd miss? The additional abilities ToB gave. Instead of being able to pick 3-4 we'd end up with 1, that's kinda sad. Still, I'd rather deal with that than strive to accept weird game logic of 30 level guards.
But it could also erase any challenge, which wouldn't be good. A good balancing between would be for example give the giants amazing amounts of HP or add new enemies (I always found it weird that they only sent mercenaries after you just after you leave Saradush... don't you think they would at least summon a demon or two? I'm not saying an army of tanar'ri, but a Gate summoned balor would be a nice addition). Also I will never believe that the dragon in front of the entrance to Abazigal's lair had to be that overpowered. It was a YOUNG dragon, those are easy to kill. He shouldn't have a spell to make him INVISIBLE, that's just amazingly retarded. Instead he should have a few buff wyverns, maybe a mage or two at his beck and call.

Personally I also find the final fight uneventful. You just repeat the same procedure 3 times.... wish there was something more epic towards the end (the Hell challenges in SoA were quite interesting and fed the plot nicely. why is ToB so disappointing in that matter?).
Expanding the challenges in Pocket Plane also sounds good. They were way too short/easy. In fact I think each challenge should lead you into some other area, not just be a small round room. But maybe I'm picky?
Anyway, again I wrote a lot when I intended to just write a few words... darn.

.... also, damn a Red Dragon worth 26k? that's like lock-picking 12 locks or learning about 10 spells from scrolls in BG2... XD
dayum...

[Cykuta]

On one hand, it is kind of silly to lead a band of demi-gods through some random places. On the other, reverting to first edition experience tables doesn't really have much sense either. How would that improve the game?

The problem with Throne, in my oppinion, is that the game just throws one "challenge" after another at you, but without anything in between. Like Draconis that Silvi mentionned : there's no understandable, in-game reason why he's there, especially since his head is the only key to the dungeon. He's just there to give "another epic fight". Unfortunately, the sheer density of those takes the thrill away.
When I first got to Watcher's Keep, I was thrilled by the promise of puzzles. Unfortunately, there weren't any! Seriously, even the "Key of the Mind" or however it's called, is obtained by slaughtering waves of monsters, and then putting blue ball in a blue shaft, red ball in a red shaft... I believe toddlers get that kind of "riddles" too.

[Silvi]

Agreed there, Cykuta, the only 'riddle' in Watcher's keep I remember (sort of) enjoying was the 4 mages' laboratories ( I think that was 2nd or 3rd level of the keep). Others - yeah, golems, demons, monsters.
I still love SoA's Spellhold riddles more than Watcher's Keep challenges.

Actually I bet there is a way to edit Watcher's Keep to send monsters at you if you fail to complete a riddle or do something wrong instead of *always* sending out monsters.

After reading all the posts in the topic again, I get the feeling that most agree ToB misses either balance or side quests that wouldn't be directly tied to the main plot. My question: is there someone brave enough to do it? It does seem like a lot of planning/work/writing/scripting/testing/map-planning/frustration/blood/toil/torment/satisfaction at the end.

[yarpen]

Changing the level of monsters sounds interesting, actually, since the game wouldn't be a speed cruzin' level gaining. But you know what we'd miss? The additional abilities ToB gave. Instead of being able to pick 3-4 we'd end up with 1, that's kinda sad. Still, I'd rather deal with that than strive to accept weird game logic of 30 level guards.

But then we'd be able to grant HLA at 10th level instead of 20th, so as it's described in AD&D. Those were a bit less powerfull, still quite usefull. We had an nice discussion about those at Kit Revision forum. Well, as far as I know it's currently impossible to grant HLA earlier than at fixed XP counter (so around 18-24 level, depending on class) but in current days of .exe hacks I don't think that it's something impossible to be done.

.... also, damn a Red Dragon worth 26k? that's like lock-picking 12 locks or learning about 10 spells from scrolls in BG2... XD

Well, those rewards are different stuff... think about finding 9th level spell scroll in Candlekeep (why those guys shouldn't have one... why Gorion was fighting using Magic Missle and other questions!) and gaining experience for 3 levels.

On the other, reverting to first edition experience tables doesn't really have much sense either. How would that improve the game?

Well, it'd fix a lot of absurdal situations... but that's only my opinion so please, no punch.

[Cykuta]

You know, it does not hurt to elaborate your comments. This is a discussion board, after all.

If by "absurd situations" you mean that characters level up beyond 30, I think it is a little munchkin-like, but definitely not absurd. You have to remember that the point of Baldur's Gate is not to depict as closely as possible D&D environment. The system is only a tool, and I suppose that, had some other system been as popular and available at the time, the game would have used it instead.

If You suddenly cut off experience sources, the characters will get about one level up throughout the whole expansion, and leveling up is part of the fun. Are you sure you can create enough fun content to make up for that?

[Silvi]

If You suddenly cut off experience sources, the characters will get about one level up throughout the whole expansion, and leveling up is part of the fun. Are you sure you can create enough fun content to make up for that?

Nobody said the only source of experience is a cheap mow through overlevelled enemies. I'd much rather get EXP for completing as many side quests as possible.