17 replies to this topic

[Fennek]

Same discussion in German:
http://kerzenburg.ba...925&postcount=1

This thead is meant to figure out (or at least to try to... ) which mods should not automatically be installed in a BWP-standard installation.
I do not want to focus on mods people might consider as boring, too difficult or not fitting together with their ethic values or whatever.

What I want to focus upon are mods which change the game in such a degree that most people do not appreciate this without being warned.

For example, the install.bat already asks if one wants Full Plate and Packing Steel mod, fun mods etc. I would appreciate to be also asked regarding tweak mods and item mods.

My opinion (one might argue about):

Tweaks:

Divine Remix
NPC Tweak
Song and Silence
Throne of Bhaal Refinements

Spell Revisions and Item Revisions are - for sure - also tweak mods, but are still updated (and have several components which could be installed independent of each other), so everybody should decide if he wants them or not.


Merchants and item mods:
Here the question is which merchants do sell overpowered items (which one doesn't have to buy, but which might disturb the atmosphere), which merchants do not, and which mods do change items (what I consider to be especially horrible).

Especially problematic:

Exnem's Vault (change of items)
RPG Dungeon Item Pack (change of items)

Mods I do not know:
Item Mods (???)
Alex Macintosh ??? (merchant mod, imho overbalanced)
BioWare Forum-Only Items ???
Boards o' Magick Item Pack ???
BG2 SoA Item Import ??? (Items are probably not overbalenced since they are from BG1, but might be available too soon?)
Genwas Händlermod ???
Return to Trademeet Item Pack ???
Revised Forgotten Wars Item Pack ???
Sigil's Birthday Mod ???
Sorcerer's Place Collection ???
Stuff of the Magi ??? (items are added to creatures...)
Heart of the Wood ???
Mersetek le Joaillier ???
Improved Volcano ???
Jamella's Diablo2 Item Store ???
Magnificient Magic Shop ???
Realm of the Bhaalspawn Armor Set???
Trovador REO ???
Volcanic Armoury ???
YLItems Pack ???

(I know that not all of them are in the standard installation, but somethimes it is only because they're in a certain language, e.g. Chinese, and might be added later.

Then, there's also the question of the XP-mods (regarding which one might also be asked by the install.bat). However, I think it would be better to discuss this in another thead to prevent too much confusion and discussions about several different themes.

[Lollorian]

Let me put forward a question here, if I may

Exactly how are the modlists (meaning combinations of the mods not individual mods) decided??
(1) General popular opinion of the mods OR
(2) Relative stability of the combination

With the new BWS allowing modlists to be imported, I'd propose the default BWP lists to be from category (2) - stable mod combinations irrespective of imbaness or stupidity (jokes )

Personal preferences can be edited using the BWS and exported for use by others who can import them

Atm, the BWS has 5 modes, here's what I thought they meant

Minimal - BGI + BGII + all fixes ... NO new content (for the purist)
Recommended - A small set of mods that the BWP guys like (for the cautious first-timer)
Standard - A combination of ALL the stable mods without a huge difficulty increase (for the experimenting first-timer)
Tactical - A combination of ALL the stable mods with a huge difficulty increase (for the "ima-played-BGII-gazillion-times-lololol" types)
Expert - A combination of ALL mods ... stability hits the fan (for freaks like me )

And I'll contribute to the topic with my own personal list of mods that I don't have in my regular installs (list generated with the help of the install.bat's feature that lists all mods not present in the directory )

Spoiler

Alassa
Alex Macintosh
Allison NPC
Anishai
Avi Maya Project
Bag Bonus
Baldurdash
Baldurs Gate 2 Shadows of Amn Item Import Mod (BG2SoA Items)
Bard Song Switching (Icewind Mode)
BranwenNPC
Biddekelorak
Bons Bruce The Cockney Barfighter
Brendan Bellina's Ammunition Belt
Brendan Bellina's Bolt Quiver
Brendan Bellina's Book Bag
Brendan Bellina's Potion Bag
Brendan Bellina's Quiver
Brendan Bellina's Scroll Case
Brendan Bellina's Scimitar of the Arch-Druid, Sif's Gift
Cassius
The Imp's CtB Cutscene Improvement Tweak
Divine Remix
Dragon Summon
Drizzt Is Not Stupid
Eldoth
Frennedan
Full Plate and Packing Steel
Ghareth
gloranMod
gMinion
Genwa's Haendlermod
Heart Of The Wood
Hessa
Horace
igi's Facing the Shade Lord again
Improved Horns of Valhalla
Improved Summons
Item Randomiser
Jandor
Jarls BGT Tweak Pack
Jason Compton's Bruce The Cockney Barfighter
K'aeloree's BWL Contest Items
Kari
Kiara-Zaiya
Larsha
Level 1 NPCs
Lost Items
Macholy's Relationship V1.5 for BGT-WeiDu
Macholy's The compatible mod between NM-Relationship and BPv180
Macholy's Relationship V2.6 for BGT-WeiDu
Macholy's Tweak Pack
Macholy's Living Mod
Macholy's Nameless Melody Inn
Macholy's Teammates fight scripts
Moddie
NPC Tweak
Octavian's Drizzt
OldModsPack
P & P Celestials
Paladins of Faerun Kitpack
The Portable Hole
Prestige Kitpack
Quallo
Raziel
Realm of the Bhaalspawn Armor Set
RItemPack (RPG Dungeon Item Pack)
Roar
Revised Forgotten Wars Item Pack
Rose NPC for BGT
RTT Item Pack
RTT Kit Pack
Rukrakia
Volcanic Armoury
Skooter the NPC
Solestia
Sorcerer's Place Collection
Stuff of the Magi
Summon Bhaalspawn
Sylmar Battlefield
Teddy
The Magnificient Magic Shop
Throne of Bhaal Revisited
ToB Hacks
Touchstone
Trovador
Unholy Gate Opening Ritual Book
Vanim
Vecna
Vendedor DLAN
Vildra
Wikaede
Willie Bruce

[Marvin]

That's about what I usually exclude from my installs as well.
I have some suggestions:

1. I'd like to see a "recommended" version with "recommended tactics components". What we can choose from right now is just a recommended version without tactics and a tactics version which includes all the mods from the standard version that a player might not be interested in. So "recommended tactics" should be included.

2. I think the list including "all stable mods regardless of imbaness and so on" should not be called "standard version". This could create missunderstandings. I'd say the standard version should contain all the mods which ensure a stable playthrough plus as much balance as possible, using as many mods as possible. What you suggested to be the standard version Lollorian, should instead be called something like "stable-playthrough-regardless-of-content-version" =). The "standard version" should be something between the "recommended" version and the "version using all stable mods regardless of their content".


I have no idea who is to decide what mods fit in what version. I think we may need a topic where people can vote for each mod to be in which version. Is it possible to create such a big poll (somewhere)? Otherwise we could create a topic where people just copy their weidu.log or a topic where people can post their suggestions for each version.


Marvin

[the bigg]

The current BWS supports custom lists; as such, it's highly improbable that new 'official' lists are created (or, even less unlikely, that the meaning of the current lists is altered).

[Marvin]

I know,

I was just thinking that new or unexperienced users could get confused when reading "standard". But u are right. It is a lot easier if experienced users would publish their favoruite lists, like Lollorian has done in this thread. Maybe we should start a topic where everyone can post their installation + a downloadable exported BWP-Mod-selection + an explanation how the mods installed were chosen, which were left out and why, and so on.

Like this we can easily collect various installation-lists for users to download. What do you think about that?

[the bigg]

I was just thinking that new or unexperienced users could get confused when reading "standard". But u are right. It is a lot easier if experienced users would publish their favoruite lists, like Lollorian has done in this thread. Maybe we should start a topic where everyone can post their installation + a downloadable exported BWP-Mod-selection + an explanation how the mods installed were chosen, which were left out and why, and so on.

Like this we can easily collect various installation-lists for users to download. What do you think about that?

It would be useful, but IMHO this would be better once BWP allows to cherry-pick components (and, obviously, it'll be useless if it ends up as a collection of 30000 slightly different lists, which is what I foresee this will end up as).

Of course, most users will blindly press 'next' without altering whatever settings are offered, so publishing lists won't help them in the slightest.

[Lollorian]

Wouldn't it be great if everyone had a "personal" install list uploadable (and changeable) at one's whim?? Something they linked in their sig like "I'm currently playing this megamod" ... wishful thinking, I know

[Fennek]

Well, one might select "standard" installation (or "recommended", or whatever), but the batch will still ask some questions, as I said. It will not, imho, be a problem if two more questions are added.

And one might upload one's own lists, sure. Question is, how many other people will really use them? I, for example, won't... .
It's actually more to be sure that some "strange" stuff is not included after an inexperienced person chooses an installation type. I'm quite sure that people will not do research regarding every single mod, then have a look in several forums (actually in different languages), just to plan the "super"-installation by customizing the BWS for 2-3 hours...

This shouldn't prevent anybody to upload his personal list, however.

(And I guess that one of the results here will be that we find out that few people really tried the merchant mods...)

Edited by Fennek, 29 September 2010 - 12:54 PM.

[DavidWallace]

I was just thinking that new or unexperienced users could get confused when reading "standard". But u are right. It is a lot easier if experienced users would publish their favoruite lists, like Lollorian has done in this thread. Maybe we should start a topic where everyone can post their installation + a downloadable exported BWP-Mod-selection + an explanation how the mods installed were chosen, which were left out and why, and so on.

Like this we can easily collect various installation-lists for users to download. What do you think about that?

It would be useful, but IMHO this would be better once BWP allows to cherry-pick components (and, obviously, it'll be useless if it ends up as a collection of 30000 slightly different lists, which is what I foresee this will end up as).

I'm not so sure... after all, ultimately all we have to go on when choosing mods is others' installs. Having the option for people to offer their own custom installs might be a good way to impose some quality control (my own problem with BWP is that by default it can be seriously unfiltered for quality, but I understand why the maintainers can't do their own quality filter.)

[Arkenor]

I *think* Dabus is planning to include my own mod selection in the Beta BW installer at some point.

[Lollorian]

... but the batch will still ask some questions, as I said. It will not, imho, be a problem if two more questions are added.

I must admit I didn't pay attention to this part of your OP My bad ...

Anyway, if you put it that way, it'd be great if the install.bat could ask if you're installing Divine Remix (and consequently Paladins of Faerun) cause it's a system overhaul like the Full Plate mod

But if you're gonna ask questions, I'd like the install.bat to ask questions about exactly how much XP/loot/money reduction we need (along with recommended settings )

Currently, the mods in question that control these are:

- Stack sizes (MixMod)

XP
- Creature (DEFJAM)
- Quest (DEFJAM)
- Thieving (DEFJAM, BPBalancer)
- Spell learning (DEFJAM, BP-Balancer)

Items
- Random loot (Aurora)

Money
- Quest (Aurora)
- Stores (Aurora)
- Loot (Aurora)

That might send the number of questions skyrocketing though

[Miloch]

I'd probably exclude most of the mods in the OP too - those I've heard of and looked at anyway. Though I don't recall having a problem with Song & Silence. A while back I had an issue with some of the bard vendor items being too cheap, but I think Andyr fixed that (or said he would anyhow). Usually I install the misnamed "Expert" set - not because I plan on playing it, but because I want to account for as many changes to the game as I can in stuff I'm developing (e.g. I don't want to add a creature somewhere someone's added something already - though I develop on unmodded BG2 or Tutu, I test on BWP-Expert).

It sounds from the nature of a lot of comments that folks aren't using the BiG World Setup, which allows you to "cherry-pick" components and also import exported modlists. Why isn't this a part of the standard BWP already? I had absolutely no major problems with it in my last install (and is a lot easier than editing arcane batch files that aren't written in any batch language I'm familiar with). That also, incidentally, lets you specify the exact settings for your XP/gold reduction components or anything else like that for that matter.

[Marvin]

@thebigg
I agree that too many slightly different lists could be a problem.

On the other hand I have to agree with DavidWallace. The only point of referrence are other people's experiences with mods. When I choose my installation I always consult the review thread over at the German forum. This helps a lot. The description of the mods do not help all the time, since they don't point out specific problems that one can have with the mod.


I think it would be useful to include more questions within the BWS, like Fennek suggested. Also, I think, certain mods that alter the game significantly should be quoted in the BWS at some point. With so many mods it takes just very long to read all the descriptionds or readmes an so on.
At the same time I would anyway try to collect installation lists from users, perferrably from "prominent modders/users" of the comunity. I'm really interested in what selection of mods create the best BG-experience, in YOUR opinion, and why. Thebigg suggested e.g. not using xpmod because you practically do not get rewarded for hours and hours of killing monsters and solving quests. I had the same thought at some point, but didn't want to destroy the balance, so I always ended up installing it.

I wanna know all about your installs =)


Marvin

[dabus]

Start to collect data and distribute them to the public and it will probably be included in the BWP/BWS.

If you want to add more text/tags/groups to the mods, the BWS is ready for it.

As Arkenor said, I'll include his selection in the next release.
But I don't know when I'll have enough time to go through the changes from 9.3 to 9.4, which I'd like to do before the next release.

[Miloch]

I'm also pretty sure that, like Aurora, XPMod gives you a whole bunch of different options too. So it's not like your only choice is either to go with the default/recommended settings or not to install it at all - just choose a different option that gives you more XP if you find you're not getting enough. That's going to be unlikely on a megamod install though, unless you're making a beeline through the whole game without completing any side-quests, and probably not likely even then.

[Fennek]

So... Actually, did we get a result? Does anybody else want to add something?

Otherwise I think one might sum up that

a) one should have a look on the merchant mods, tweak mods, XP mods, money mods and item mods

b) there should be a place where experienced players can post their customized lists so that newcomer etc. get an idea what one might install

[masterdisorder]

If you are interested i wrote the mod that I've inserted and removed from my installation of BW tactic here.

Continuing to play the game over-modded, I must say that what takes more balance to the game, are the magical objects. Not the XP, not gold, but the objects.
At the end of BG1, my 6 characters had AC -21, -16, -6, -9, -9, -7. Not to mention that I possessed the weapons could well afford to face a vanilla TOB ...
The levels achieved were not excessive (I was around 500000 XP per character), of course, far above the normal cap TOTSC, but characters of 8° or 11° does not make a big difference ...

Edited by masterdisorder, 18 October 2010 - 04:30 AM.

[Marvin]

If you are interested i wrote the mod that I've inserted and removed from my installation of BW tactic here.

Continuing to play the game over-modded, I must say that what takes more balance to the game, are the magical objects. Not the XP, not gold, but the objects.
At the end of BG1, my 6 characters had AC -21, -16, -6, -9, -9, -7. Not to mention that I possessed the weapons could well afford to face a vanilla TOB ...
The levels achieved were not excessive (I was around 500000 XP per character), of course, far above the normal cap TOTSC, but characters of 8° or 11° does not make a big difference ...

Totally agree: XP-gaining is even without xpmod quite balanced. Items (from item/ mechant/ big mods) kill the balance though.