15 replies to this topic

[Miloch]

So we went through inconsistencies with the PS:T animations in this post, but it occurred to me that there are existing BG2 animations that have the same issues with "hardcoded" weapons on them. Here are a few examples:

- Sailors use fists only
- Pirates use two blades (such as a longsword or scimitar and dagger)
- Shadow thieves use a single blade (long- or shortsword)
- Male drow (not the elf animation) use what - a drow lance? (could be a drow two-handed sword but there isn't such a thing that I know of)
- Female drow (not the elf animation) use a drow flail
- Amnish soldiers use a spear
- Robed Irenicus (aka "Hula wizard") uses a staff

I think missile weapons would be inappropriate on any of these, with the possible exception of darts or throwing daggers for those who don't have two-handed weapons.

Has no one else noticed such inconsistencies? In the vanilla game even, a lot of male drow get flails, some female drow get swords, shadow thieves get crossbows and Amnish soldiers get bows and swords. It must look pretty stupid to have someone wielding a spear shooting arrows at you, no?

Any thoughts or other animations like this we should look at?

[Sam.]

'Miloch', on 05 July 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

Any thoughts or other animations like this we should look at?

• MINOTAUR (MMIN) have an axe animation, but there are a few with X-bows.
  
• GITHYANKI (MGIT) have 1Hsword and 2Hsword animations, but some also use Spears, Morning Stars, and Quarterstaffs.
  
• OGRE (MOGR) have mourning star animations, but also use Clubs, 1Hswords, 2Hswords, Spears, and one even has a Composite Long Bow

This the type of thing you were interested in?

[Miloch]

'Sam.', on 05 July 2010 - 11:44 PM, said:

This the type of thing you were interested in?

Yes - can you see if there are any others?

Looking over the IWD animations in the readme, I see a handful more:
- Lizard kings have tridents
- Svirfneblin_axes have pickaxes (already dealt with in Aurora)
- Goblin_axes and captains have axes (need to double check these)
- Goblin archers have bows
- Goblin worgriders have spears
- Barbarians (3 types - club, hammer and staff)
- Animated plates have swords or axes
- Genies have scimitars
- Neo-orog shaman has flail and shield
- Cambions and alu-fiends (Isair and Madae) already dealt with (scimitars and morning star)
- Half-dragons have two-handed swords
- Verbeeg has spear and shield
- Mariliths and Belhifet have double scimitar-like weapons
- Frost giant has giant axe

I mainly just went through the N-series animations in BG2, so I guess we should go through the rest of the M-animations.

[Sam.]

How about these?

From BGII:

• DEATH_KNIGHT (MDKN) has a 2Hsword
  
• DRIZZT (UDRZ) has 2 scimitars ()
  
• ETTIN (METN) has a club
  
• OGRE_HALF (MOGH) has a 1Hsword
  
• OGRE_MAGE (MOGM) has a 1Hsword that has its own animation
  
• SALAMANDER (MSAL) has a spear
  
• SALAMANDER2 (MSA2) has a spear
  
• SAREVOK (USAR) has a 1Hsword
  
• SHADOW_THIEF (NSHD) has a 1Hsword (too long to be a dagger) in one hand

From IWD II:

• Bugbear (MBUG) has large spiked mace \ mourning star
  
• Bugbear Captain (MBU2) has large spiked mace \ mourning star
  
• Goblin Shaman (MGOC) has quarterstaff
  
• Yuan Ti, Halfbreed (MYUH) has scimitar

[Miloch]

Cheers, I found these as well as a dozen or two more in both BG2 and IWDs. So now I just have to go update the code (yay) to look for inconsistent weapons, but Creature Lister makes it somewhat more easy at least.

There are some odd weapons that don't exist though, like the lizard king trident and the odd double-sided crescent staff that lizardmen (and the Melissan animation MMEL actually) can have. Don't suppose you'd care to do some BAMs for those, especially since CA uses the same animations?

Any idea what the male drow weapon is supposed to be? It looks like a lance, but swings like a sword, and is at least as large as a bastard and most probably a two-handed sword (definitely larger than a drow longsword anyway, which is the only one that I see in the game).

[Sam.]

'Miloch', on 07 July 2010 - 11:15 PM, said:

Any idea what the male drow weapon is supposed to be? It looks like a lance, but swings like a sword, and is at least as large as a bastard and most probably a two-handed sword (definitely larger than a drow longsword anyway, which is the only one that I see in the game).

This is the closest thing I can find:

I found it here.

[Chevalier]

In BG2 I think the artists took too many liberties with animations. I don't think we need to compound the error by adding weapons that are not standard to their type (like the Drow). Also adding weapon types that PC & NPCs can't use (a giant's club even if you are strong enough it would be too unbalanced) or don't have proficiencies for them.

[Miloch]

'Sam.', on 08 July 2010 - 06:38 AM, said:

'Miloch', on 07 July 2010 - 11:15 PM, said:

Any idea what the male drow weapon is supposed to be? It looks like a lance, but swings like a sword, and is at least as large as a bastard and most probably a two-handed sword (definitely larger than a drow longsword anyway, which is the only one that I see in the game).

This is the closest thing I can find:

Heh... some sort of Kara-Turan drow? I think I figured it out...

It is a Drow Fishing Rod +2, +4 vs. Kuo-Toa...



*crickets chirping*

Eh, whatever...

'Chevalier', on 08 July 2010 - 07:00 AM, said:

In BG2 I think the artists took too many liberties with animations. I don't think we need to compound the error by adding weapons that are not standard to their type (like the Drow). Also adding weapon types that PC & NPCs can't use (a giant's club even if you are strong enough it would be too unbalanced) or don't have proficiencies for them.

I'm not really talking about adding droppable giant's clubs, because yes, the PC wouldn't be able to use them (not as normal clubs anyway). But it's definitely a bit too much for a creature who clearly is wielding a club to be inflicting damage with, and dropping, say, a sword. The real issue (what was reported in the PS:T post I linked initially) is creatures with bows and arrows who clearly don't have them - whose animations don't support them. They should instead have some sort of throwing weapon, if that would be believable.

I think lizard king tridents would be ok (usuable as spears) except that PC animations wouldn't support them. It would be pretty cool if they did, but the main idea for now again is to make sure they're not wielding swords or whatever (though regular brown lizardmen in fact support separate club, halberd and "odd staff" animations if you grab the extra objects from the IA_IWD archive).

As for whatever the drow has, it's clearly a sword, as it has a crossguard, but it's pretty much the height of a drow and wielded with two hands. But I suppose we just have to grit our teeth and believe it's a 3' drow longsword, which most of them do have. Incidentally, the female drow appears to be packing a one-handed crossbow in her left hand, which is valid in PnP but not in the game engine, so I guess we just have to smile and nod at the two-handed crossbows of speed found on the same creatures.

[Setharnas]

It's been a while since I last took a trip to the Underdark, but I think I always associated that animation with the drow halberd-thingie... Unless my memory really plays a trick on me. Would that work for you?

[Miloch]

'Setharnas', on 08 July 2010 - 02:12 PM, said:

It's been a while since I last took a trip to the Underdark, but I think I always associated that animation with the drow halberd-thingie... Unless my memory really plays a trick on me. Would that work for you?

It might if it was a thrusting instead of a swinging animation. I think maybe it is just a vague animation that could vaguely resemble either a drow lance, longsword or scimitar, though quite a bit of suspension of reality is needed for any of those three .

Note that there are drow that get a dark-skinned elf avatar rather than the drow (MDRO) animation above. Those can support any weapons, including halberds etc., so they're not a problem.

[Wisp]

'Miloch', on 08 July 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:

'Setharnas', on 08 July 2010 - 02:12 PM, said:

It's been a while since I last took a trip to the Underdark, but I think I always associated that animation with the drow halberd-thingie... Unless my memory really plays a trick on me. Would that work for you?

It might if it was a thrusting instead of a swinging animation. I think maybe it is just a vague animation that could vaguely resemble either a drow lance, longsword or scimitar, though quite a bit of suspension of reality is needed for any of those three .

Just hand out a mix of long swords, scimitars, halberds and lances. Since none of them is a perfect fit you may as well add some variety.

Edited by Wisp, 08 July 2010 - 08:15 AM.

[Miloch]

'Wisp', on 08 July 2010 - 05:12 PM, said:

Just hand out a mix of long swords, scimitars, halberds and lances. Since none of them is a perfect fit you may as well add some variety.

Well, the male drow already have that sort of gear mostly, so I wouldn't touch those - only the ones that look stupid like the ones with flails and crossbows (though those would be acceptable for the female drow).

[Steve]

> Any idea what the male drow weapon is supposed to be?

Isn't that a glaive? Just another of the myriad of pole-arms. ADnD lists it as 2-handed, slashing, D10 damage.

[Jarno Mikkola]

'Steve', on 08 July 2010 - 11:35 PM, said:

Isn't that a glaive? Just another of the myriad of pole-arms.

Nope, it's actually an Axe-sword(Machete), or properly known as "reverse curved sword"... just like this but a lot larger and used for self-defense, just like the link says the bigger versions would be used.

[Wisp]

'Jarno Mikkola', on 08 July 2010 - 11:08 PM, said:

Nope, it's actually an Axe-sword(Machete), or properly known as "reverse curved sword"... just like this but a lot larger and used for self-defense, just like the link says the bigger versions would be used.

But the drow weapon is curved backwards. And one of the idle animations has the drow resting the curved side of the weapon on his shoulder. Besides, the animation clearly shows it as being used for stabbing as well as for slashing.

If you have to call it something I'd say it's a pole arm.

[Jarno Mikkola]

'Wisp', on 09 July 2010 - 12:26 AM, said:

But the drow weapon is curved backwards. And one of the idle animations has the drow resting the curved side of the weapon on his shoulder. Besides, the animation clearly shows it as being used for stabbing as well as for slashing.

If you have to call it something I'd say it's a pole arm.

It's not a pole arm... that's for sure, and if we need the weapon to be curved backwards, there are Sword"-Axes" that have that feature, like "Kriegsmesser" = "Großes Messer" = German "War Knife", and the Zhanmadao, that both are single side extra large knifes.

It's Sword-Axe if it consists of the forms common to Sword and Axe, in my book. So the edged, commonly metal part is longer that the handle(that typically has some sort of armguard).
It's a Pole arm, if the pole that the weapon is handled from, is longer than the blade... so it's Staff(/Metal Shaft) + Knife(-> Spear), Staff + Axe(-> Halberd), Staff + Curved blade(-> Japanese polearm).
It's Lance if it has Staff + Armguard/Shield + Spike at the top.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 08 July 2010 - 03:32 PM.