41 replies to this topic

[-JR-]

I think CHARNAME's greatest choice at the Throne of Bhaal is between godhood and her(his) loved one. So, "you can have your cake and eat it, too" choice(Viconia - still PC's lover and his chosen, and PC is a god) really cheapens it. It's like "Alistair can be king, Grey Warden, alive, NOT father of Old God Baby, and he will marry Warden and make her or him his queen and go do adventures with her, all at the same time! And they don't have to die in 30 years, too!"

That's a good point. When I said something about it, I was picturing a situation where they'd still be seperated but the partner could be a central but somewhat disconnected priest of CHARNAME. But looking at other Chosen, like those of Mystra, and how close they were to their god, it could indeed cheapen the experience. I unintentionally lean towards low-magic settings, even when it's been otherwise established, and it can lead to mistakes like this.

Second...How about 'Bioware Romance Additions'? That would make it BRA. Everyone would remember it.

Hahah!

And third...JR, do you have any one to help you with the writing of the 'adult encounters' yet? I have a very active...umm...shall we call it imagination? Would be glad to put it to good use.

I've already talked to someone, but that wouldn't rule you out. The decision reached was that since that was such a minor part of the mod, we could afford to look at it last. So, maybe?

Loving the discussion. Even if individual ideas get rejected in the end, I can't tell you how useful this is to my thought processes. For the record, Viconia and especially Aerie are being worked on first, so suggestions involving them will be the most helpful. Not to say that other ones aren't valuable, just that it will be a while before their implementation.

Edit: So there is some degree of agreement on chaotic Anomen's loss of spells? Any ideas on how this should be implemented? I'm not sure which would be worse, beefing him up by making him a pure class fighter (if indeed such a thing is possible), or neutering him by making him a spell-less cleric. All but the staunchest roleplayer would be turned away by the latter. Not that I'm set on taking the spells away; feel free to tell me if you feel otherwise.

Edited by -JR-, 23 March 2011 - 11:28 AM.

[Izzy]

Loving the discussion. Even if individual ideas get rejected in the end, I can't tell you how useful this is to my thought processes. For the record, Viconia and especially Aerie are being worked on first, so suggestions involving them will be the most helpful. Not to say that other ones aren't valuable, just that it will be a while before their implementation.

To be honest I haven't completely finished a romance with a boiware female npc. I have tried, but to varying degrees I quite simply got tired of them. Jaheira is too domineering and opinionated for me. Since I myself already have these qualities in abundance, she and I don't deal well together. For this same reason I really can't stand Aerie. I have trouble with weak women. I probably was an amazon in my previous life. And then there's Viconia. After trying to romance her with the "Flirt pack" on, I gave up before we left the slums, because she is a sadistic...I'm sorry a very sadistic person and it turned me off. (shudder)
Perhaps there are others out there who can assist in a positive way...

Edit: So there is some degree of agreement on chaotic Anomen's loss of spells? Any ideas on how this should be implemented? I'm not sure which would be worse, beefing him up by making him a pure class fighter (if indeed such a thing is possible), or neutering him by making him a spell-less cleric. All but the staunchest roleplayer would be turned away by the latter. Not that I'm set on taking the spells away; feel free to tell me if you feel otherwise.

What about dis-spelling (he he) him for a short period of time? He could do a small side-quest geared toward atonement to bring him back in Helm's grace.

[phordicus]

anomen could get tagged with a spell failure effect, maybe 10-15%. still a priest, just not a reliable one.

[Kulyok]

Edit: So there is some degree of agreement on chaotic Anomen's loss of spells?

I'd say "no":
1) the original Bioware Gaider's Anomen proudly says that Helm hasn't rejected him(so it's an integral part of his character; if you make him a Helm rejectee with no spells and a Chaotic Good alignment(after killing an innocent, no less!)), you'll just kill Anomen and create a different character;
2) in Baldur's Gate series game lore takes precedence over D&D canonic lore, that's how it works. And in game lore, all neutral characters retain their spells as Helm followers. Anomen is neutral? Neutral. So, he has every right to have his spells and Helm's support and his symbol (after level 25).

[Miloch]

Edit: So there is some degree of agreement on chaotic Anomen's loss of spells? Any ideas on how this should be implemented? ... He could do a small side-quest geared toward atonement to bring him back in Helm's grace.

Helm's church accepts worshippers of LG, NG, CG, LN, N and CN alignments; however, the clergy can only be of LG, LN and N alignments (according to Faiths & Avatars). So I don't think a priest of Helm who went chaotic would necessarily lose all spells - he probably just couldn't advance in the hierarchy of the church (and there is quite a hierarchy, with titles ranging from "Novice" to "Senior Steeleye"). He might lose a few (not all) high-level spells and granted powers such as Turn Undead - your last suggestion makes the most sense.

Neglecting to perform the proper rituals or failing to strive toward fulfilling the deity's goals are examples of moderate transgressions. Such infractions are punished by the loss of granted powers and high-level spells and can only be rectified through major penance. In addition to a period of fasting or meditation, such priests must each give at least one moderately powerful magical item to their order (never to be used by them again), and/or undertake some dangerous quest on their deity's behalf.

[-JR-]

To be honest I haven't completely finished a romance with a boiware female npc. I have tried, but to varying degrees I quite simply got tired of them. Jaheira is too domineering and opinionated for me. Since I myself already have these qualities in abundance, she and I don't deal well together. For this same reason I really can't stand Aerie. I have trouble with weak women. I probably was an amazon in my previous life. And then there's Viconia. After trying to romance her with the "Flirt pack" on, I gave up before we left the slums, because she is a sadistic...I'm sorry a very sadistic person and it turned me off. (shudder)

So you're not attracted to sensitive women, strong women, or sadistic women. So basically, you're straight? Just kidding, I get it. Personally, I like the surprisingly tender Viconia romance, where her true self is so subtly and artistically put forward amongst the learned sadism, and the Aerie romance, where she is kind and sensitive yet flawed enough in the side aspects (inability to decisively deal with love triangles or squares/pentagons(?) you or Haer'Dalis can initiate) to appear a real person. The Jaheira romance was surprisingly well done, but I've never been able to get into it. I'm not sure why... too quest based? Vestigial respect for Khalid? The Anomen romance always struck me as rather dull and forced, like they just threw him in there to placate the ladies.

Perhaps there are others out there who can assist in a positive way...

Nah, it's fine. Even partially informed assistance is appreciated if you're willing. It's easier for me to overlook or improve on imperfect questions and ideas than come up with perfect ones from scratch.

Not that I'm taking a side in this particular discussion (not knowledgeable enough), but the bit about the magical item and quest seems pre-tailored for the redemption plan. Adds weight to the suggestions.

The issue Berelinde brought up, however, that of the technical issues behind shifting a failed Anomen away from chaotic neutral, is still worth examining here. If something won't work, it won't work.

[Kulyok]

The Anomen romance always struck me as rather dull and forced, like they just threw him in there to placate the ladies.

Then it'd be dangerous for you to expand it. If you don't love something with all your heart, what's the point of building on it?

[-JR-]

I don't want to appear sexist, I don't want to build a wildly lopsided mod, I don't want to leave female PCs out, and the whole point of modding is to change things we dislike or are dissatisfied with.

Though you have a point, it will be more difficult than expanding the ones I already have a lead on. I'm prepared to meet that challange, though; I can always delete or modify that aspect if people are not happy with the result.

[Lady of payne]

o there is some degree of agreement on chaotic Anomen's loss of spells? Any ideas on how this should be implemented? I'm not sure which would be worse, beefing him up by making him a pure class fighter (if indeed such a thing is possible), or neutering him by making him a spell-less cleric.

Make him a true fighter.
Guy, and girls... Just give me evil Ano.

[Lady of payne]

If you ddo Ano BI I will be very happy.

[-JR-]

Project update. Some kind of vicious virus killed my computer and flash drives, causing me to lose all my work. Not just on the mod, but also ten years worth of journaling, fanfiction, independant writing, and collected music. Demoralizing, but I'll be back. In the meantime, if anyone who has any pieces of anything I've ever sent you, sending it my way would be extremely helpful.

[TDouglas]

Wow, sorry to hear about the disaster brother Hopefully you'll be able to recover your data.

As for Ano, the choice is obvious: He should switch gods from Helm to the worship of Adenor Crush! Who better to follow?

[-JR-]

Hah! That one would really make Kulyok happy, wouldn't it?

Thanks. It happened a little while ago though; I didn't mention it until I was completely certain it was unrecoverable. And like I said, I'll bounce back. Just thought I'd check in to let people know I haven't gone AWOL.

[Crazee]

Oh god, that's annoying. You have my sympathy. Best of luck with the project

[ARKdeEREH]

I think it would be great if there were a mod that continued the Viconia romance beyond Throne of Bhaal. I disagree with what someone said about the Viconia romance storyline seeming unrealistic. Personally, I thought it was the most interesting storyline in Baldur's Gate, but I hate the current epilogue where I have to choose between becoming a god (and dumping Viconia) and renouncing my divinity (and staying with Viconia, only to have her get murdered by Lolth later). I think it would be great if there were a third option where I could stay with Viconia, and not have her get murdered.

Since the PC would become a god, it would make sense that if Lolth tried to kill Viconia it would be like starting a war between gods...which could get...interesting. I think it would be fun if Viconia could become a demi-goddess or high priestess of the PC or something to that effect.

Also, in one of the Viconia romance dialogues Viconia mentions being attacked by some farmers in Beregost. I think it would be interesting if there was a mod where the now Lord of Murder PC and his high priestess/demi-godess Viconia could return to Beregost and burn it and all its inhabitants to the ground, or something to that effect. Or maybe they could do something similar even if the PC became a heroic god, but just do it in a 'good' way. It would be fun if they could have other adventures too.

[-JR-]

I disagree with what someone said about the Viconia romance storyline seeming unrealistic. Personally, I thought it was the most interesting storyline in Baldur's Gate,

Personally, I like the surprisingly tender Viconia romance, where her true self is so subtly and artistically put forward amongst the learned sadism.

For example, despite considerable posturing and some rocky patches, Viconia's current romance is tender and patient, a rare and true love none would have guessed she would ever find. But isn't it a lot more likely that this undeniably libidinous drow would act on her learned shallowness and find merely an object of physical attraction for which to occupy her time?

I don't believe it to be unrealistic in the slightest; I merely feel that it is unlikely enough that simpler, easier alternatives should be presented to accentuate its rarity.

but I hate the current epilogue where I have to choose between becoming a god (and dumping Viconia) and renouncing my divinity (and staying with Viconia, only to have her get murdered by Lolth later). I think it would be great if there were a third option where I could stay with Viconia, and not have her get murdered.

While I seem to recall one of the writers(?) offering a valid justification for the inevitably dark endings to Viconia's romantic situation, I too am a sucker for a happy ending and will be taking it into consideration while expanding the epilogues.

Since the PC would become a god, it would make sense that if Lolth tried to kill Viconia it would be like starting a war between gods...which could get...interesting. I think it would be fun if Viconia could become a demi-goddess or high priestess of the PC or something to that effect.

I think it would be great if there were a mod that continued the Viconia romance beyond Throne of Bhaal.

I am inclined to agree with the intelligent, logical objection to the concept of shared divinity that has already been made on this thread, but I would not rule out the idea of Lolth making a reappearance in ToB. The current Lolth plot in the unaltered SoA Viconia romance seemed to end rather abruptly.

Also, in one of the Viconia romance dialogues Viconia mentions being attacked by some farmers in Beregost. I think it would be interesting if there was a mod where the now Lord of Murder PC and his high priestess/demi-godess Viconia could return to Beregost and burn it and all its inhabitants to the ground, or something to that effect. Or maybe they could do something similar even if the PC became a heroic god, but just do it in a 'good' way. It would be fun if they could have other adventures too.

I believe she already killed them. Or at least she says she did. She later claims to have been lying, but in my mind it's just as likely she was lying about lying.

[ARKdeEREH]

[quote name='ARKdeEREH' date='10 October 2011 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1318303277' post='524590']Also, in one of the Viconia romance dialogues Viconia mentions being attacked by some farmers in Beregost. I think it would be interesting if there was a mod where the now Lord of Murder PC and his high priestess/demi-godess Viconia could return to Beregost and burn it and all its inhabitants to the ground, or something to that effect. Or maybe they could do something similar even if the PC became a heroic god, but just do it in a 'good' way. It would be fun if they could have other adventures too.[/quote]I believe she already killed them. Or at least she says she did. She later claims to have been lying, but in my mind it's just as likely she was lying about lying.
[/quote]

I meant that there could either be an evil option where Viconia and the PC hold all or most of Beregost accountable by destroying it or a neutral option where they punish the civil authorities there who did nothing to stop the earlier attack on Viconia and did nothing to punish those responsible later or a good option where Viconia and the PC have some sort of contact with Beregost that leads to longer term toleration of outsiders instead of the next drow who happens to wander through the city being attacked as vengeance for the farmers Viconia killed. Something to that effect. A story that acknowledges Viconia's past in Beregost and has multiple ways to possibly conclude it.

[-JR-]

Are you talking about an epilogue, or do you want to continue playing after the game ends, possibly as a god?

[Rti]

It's better to talk about BioWare "romances." Even though KOTOR II is not a BioWare game, I'd head there for a slightly better take on things than "talk to me after each mission on a hub planet and select the 'don't be an asshole' prompts and then you'll see me in my underwear in a cutscene." NWN2 also isn't a BioWare game

[-JR-]

I catch the Mass Effect reference, but I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. This project is confined to Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn and its expansion, Throne of Bhaal. As such, I think Baldur's Gate itself is the best resource; I've been dissatisfied with quite a few wonderfully written mods simply because they didn't feel right for the game.

How do people feel about player initiated dialogue being integral to romantic progression? I want to add realism by distancing things from the 'she's talking at me again' feeling of the original romance paths (spoiler: you have to emotionally contribute to relationships in real life too), but I want to avoid complicating things to the point of frustrating the players.

It wouldn't be as clunky as it sounds. For example, Essential PID 1 might become available after Lovetalk 2, with Essential PID 1 being a requirement for Lovetalk 5 to begin, leaving you a decently sized window to accomplish it before it begins to stall your progress. Nonessential, flirtpack-style PIDs would be available as well.