41 replies to this topic

[-JR-]

As I do not wish to strain my fragile mind phrasing everything in a different way, this thread will contain statements and responses of mine copy-pasted from Gibberings3, and vice-versa. Feel free to limit yourself to only one of the (currently) two discussions unless someone says something in the other that you really want to address.

The mod I've been working on is an expansion to the Bioware romances. (Aerie, Anomen, Jaheira, and Viconia)

Though there will be numerous smaller aspects, the premise of this mod is quite simple, that more often than not there is more than one way to someone's heart (or into their arms I suppose). For example, despite considerable posturing and some rocky patches, Viconia's current romance is tender and patient, a rare and true love none would have guessed she would ever find. But isn't it a lot more likely that this undeniably libidinous drow would act on her learned shallowness and find mererly an object of physical attraction for which to occupy her time? Also, wouldn't it be refreshing to see greater dichotomy between lawful good and chaotic neutral behavior in the current Anomen romance? What if an evil character focused on corruption of the once ideal-driven squire, or a reckless but kind-hearted woman who accidentally led him astray decided they wished to build him back up to a man of dignity? Wouldn't it be more likely for Aerie to cling onto a strong but selfish character who wants her in the palm of his hand than find the one man in the world who wishes for a happy, independant lover? As for Jaheira, well, this is currently a secret. I couldn't picture her romance any other way, and thought her beyond any sort of corruption. But Sister Vigilante's got something good in the works, but it's not the sort of thing that currently needs input.

As the darker side of relationships are rarely as lasting and fulfilling, naturally some of these would be shorter than the "good" side of things. In addition, the splits in the characters' paths won't be carbon copies of eachother, rather I plan to focus on increasing the differences for a more varying experience.

Though evil and darker choices are something that needs a great deal of expansion in this good-focused game, the "good" paths will be expanded upon as well. This is important to me as the player of primarily good PCs, as I usually am finished with, say, Aerie or Anomen by the time I reach Brynnlaw, and Viconia and Jaheira not too long after. In addition, an earlier and more believably written Viconia "redemption" could benefit us all.

There has also been call for an increased degree of mature content, something I am open to including as optional content (though I am probably too shy to write it myself). However, I wish to imprint that I will not see this turn into a smut-fest. If an artistic manner does not present itself, or if I begin to think it is detracting from the story in any way, this aspect will be shelved or scrapped.

Ipsissimus and I have been discussing this mod over... several hundred(?) emails, so it is unlikely that many new ideas will be brought up. But on the off chance we've skimmed over some absolutely crucial thing, it would be great to hear it. And discussion is always useful for one as scatter-brained as I.

Plus, it doesn't hurt to let the community know what's on the horizon ahead of time. Or at least it doesn't hurt me.

Edited by -JR-, 13 July 2010 - 07:03 PM.

[-JR-]

Though I'd love to hear generic thoughts at any point in time, the first direction I would like to take the discussion is rather simple. I think the name needs work. So far we have the rather self-explanatory "Bioware Romance Expansion," and "Expanded Romances."

I think both "ER" and "BRE" sound a bit too much like the somewhat similarly focused and already released project, "RE," or "Romantic Encounters," over at Gibberlings3.

Edited by -JR-, 12 April 2010 - 06:56 PM.

[Ipsissimus]

At last count, 141 emails

As for names... Cleric Love? Bio Love? Keeping Faith? *goes off to plunder song titles* Extraordinary PRO_GIRLBOY? Us of Greater Gods? The Wrong Company? Vices and Virtues? Rude Awakenings? Forever? Dearly Beloved? Pray for Me? Another First Kiss? She's an Angel? I'm Your Boyfriend Now? Livin' La Vida Loca?

...okay, now I'm just getting silly about this.

Are there plans to expand upon existing quests? For instance, a Stalker or rogue PC should be able to investigate Moira's murder, no?

[-JR-]

I prefer environmental or chapter triggers for lovetalks, such as, say, the loss of your soul or the party's descent into the Underdark. But as much of a feeling of asymmetry as I'm going for with the differing paths, elements of Jaheira's current quest-based romance being incorporated into the others is very likely.

The specific idea you suggested would certainly be an interesting aspect of the "redemption of fallen Anomen" idea. But if I recall correctly, if Anomen does the (arguably) right thing by not attacking Saerk, it actually is Saerk who did it, and his father dies trying to get revenge. In that case, the Order does the investigating, and the killer is brought to justice legally.

It would be interested for me to see the failed Anomen rise to chaotic good, with somewhat more of a reckless vigilante mentality than his knighthood self, but not quite the "lost soul" feel of the current chaotic neutral path.

[Ipsissimus]

If Anomen changed alignments that drastically, he'd need a different deity. Helm does *not* like vigilantes. Tempus, maybe; Anomen strikes me as the sort to prefer fighting in the front lines, for wartime glory and all that. You're right about the Saerk thing though.

I was thinking that there could be a small quest, begun by agreeing to "check it out" talking with Lord Cor and ending, ideally, with Saerk being caught and not killed. But the existing paths should definitely remain. And if the party discovered that it was or wasn't Saerk, Cor might even sort of approve of Anomen. Maybe.

[-JR-]

I'm not sure, the game allows him to be chaotic neutral and sort of thug with Helm still granting him powers. But you're right that it's illogical. Maybe a deity shift would be in store for that alignment as well. Since I'm already overhauling the entire romance, it wouldn't be so unreasonable as it would be in a stand-alone mod.

Would another deity accept him as a follower with such, er, short notice? But at the same time I couldn't drop his cleric levels or make him into a pure-class fighter, could I? It's a tricky question.

[Ipsissimus]

Perhaps a small side-quest involving a trip to a temple of Tempus. Or if the PC has the fighter's stronghold, there is a priest of Tempus there. I think there might be extenuating circumstances, too. Helm, I think, continues to grant him power because he's a companion of the Bhaalspawn, who really needs all the help they can get. Besides, who's to say that the gods don't have little chats? "Hey Shar, how about you grant this Tymorite power on his next healing spell and watch him freak?" Perhaps Helm and Tempus have a little god-to-god talk and Helm turns Anomen over to Tempus instead. (though I doubt that, somehow.) Besides, Tempusites mostly need to prove themselves worthy in battle--which Anomen's done.

[berelinde]

It isn't a big deal for a general worshiper to change patron deities, but it's a lot tougher for clerics. They usually lose their spells completely until they've completed some kind of quest to prove themselves to their new deity.

As a follower of Helm, CN Anomen should *not* be getting his spells. Helm would be more likely to grant them to a LE cleric than a CN one. I'm not suggesting that you make him LE instead!

I'd like to point out that a lot of mods, and even the game itself, often use Alignment("Anomen",CHAOTIC_NEUTRAL) as a check to see whether Anomen has completed his personal quest in a way that severs his ties with the Order. If you change him to CG, you're going to break other mods and you might even break the game. If you really wanted him to convert to CG, you could correct any potential incompatibilities by insisting that your mod go at the end of the installation and doing a bulk dialogue and script patch, but it could get messy. Probably the safest way would be to swap Alignment("Anomen",CHAOTIC_NEUTRAL) with Alignment("Anomen",MASK_CHAOTIC).

[Itarilde]

It's been few months since the last post, but I had some similar thoughts about existing Bioware romances, starting with the Anomen one. My idea was to create two different ways of further change in his alignment: redemption (kind of) with a possibility to make Anomen TN and corruption, making him CE and losing the favour of Helm (and an option for Charname to grant him some minor powers, since at the end of ToB our little Bhaalspawn is a very powerful creature - and eventually making Anomen a priest of Charname should she ascend to godhood). Charname already has some significant influence over Anomen's choices in vanilla BG2. Anyway, I decided it was a silly idea and my writing skills were too far from perfect.

I think that Helm has some hidden agenda behind the whole Anomen & Charname business and that's why Ano still gets his spells. Well, I was thinking about a dialogue with Charname trying to convince Anomen that Helm is not necessarily benevolent. "Ahem, a CN hedonistic murderer with strong tendencies to drink too much, offend the top members of the Order and misbehave in public. Not really in Helm's type, are you? I wonder why he tolerates you..."

[Lady of payne]

redemption (kind of) with a possibility to make Anomen

No. It looks like LG line. And he is to emotional for be TN. He don't like Cernd for this. He can be L or C but there is no middle ground.

making him CE and losing the favour of Helm

I want this mod!
But may be Ano LE will be better? You can create quest to became Saerk a slaver in eyes of Justice. And he(Ano not Saerk) can become priest of Bane, God of Tyrany. Or priest of Shar, godess of revenge.

Edited by Lady of payne, 13 October 2010 - 10:07 PM.

[Lady of payne]

I will wait this mod.

to drink too much

He can't be drank because his father did it and he hate father.

Edited by Lady of payne, 13 October 2010 - 10:12 PM.

[-JR-]

(an option for Charname to grant him some minor powers, since at the end of ToB our little Bhaalspawn is a very powerful creature - and eventually making Anomen a priest of Charname should she ascend to godhood).

Significant others becoming CHARNAME's 'Chosen' upon ascension was something I'd been mulling over ever since a mod introduced the option of alternate Sarevok epilogues in which something like this happened, especially given the fact that all four are more or less priests/priestesses already. Something like this would be easy to include, but would probably be contained to an end game chat and an epilogue. Maybe a bit more in the case of an ambitious Viconia.

Well, I was thinking about a dialogue with Charname trying to convince Anomen that Helm is not necessarily benevolent. "Ahem, a CN hedonistic murderer with strong tendencies to drink too much, offend the top members of the Order and misbehave in public. Not really in Helm's type, are you? I wonder why he tolerates you..."

If all goes as planned, each romance will have at least one religious discussion, at which point things like this will be available to say. I'm currently well into (one of the?) Aerie ones. It's already enormous.

I'd like to point out that a lot of mods, and even the game itself, often use Alignment("Anomen",CHAOTIC_NEUTRAL) as a check to see whether Anomen has completed his personal quest in a way that severs his ties with the Order. If you change him to CG, you're going to break other mods and you might even break the game. If you really wanted him to convert to CG, you could correct any potential incompatibilities by insisting that your mod go at the end of the installation and doing a bulk dialogue and script patch, but it could get messy. Probably the safest way would be to swap Alignment("Anomen",CHAOTIC_NEUTRAL) with Alignment("Anomen",MASK_CHAOTIC).

Like Berelinde said, technical issues will, for all practical purposes, prevent Anomen from having alignments other than lawful good, lawful neutral, and chaotic neutral. Whatever is decided on will need to be justifiable within those parameters. This does not, however, prevent me from looking into, say, both an angry and hateful chaotic neutral and a redemption-seeking chaotic neutral. There are more than nine different kinds of people in the world, after all.

As a follower of Helm, CN Anomen should *not* be getting his spells. Helm would be more likely to grant them to a LE cleric than a CN one. I'm not suggesting that you make him LE instead!

How big of an issue do you think this is? Should I overlook it in light of its place in the vanilla game, or should disabling his spells or swapping his class for a fighter of comparable stats be an option? Changing his deity would be an enormous amount of work, and hard to do right, but it's not out of the question.

I think that Helm has some hidden agenda behind the whole Anomen & Charname business and that's why Ano still gets his spells.

Might be worth looking into. Would need to do a lot more research about celestial politics, but it might be worth it to make the relatively dull (in my opinion) Anomen romance shine out a bit more.

[Izzy]

Significant others becoming CHARNAME's 'Chosen' upon ascension was something I'd been mulling over ever since a mod introduced the option of alternate Sarevok epilogues in which something like this happened, especially given the fact that all four are more or less priests/priestesses already. Something like this would be easy to include, but would probably be contained to an end game chat and an epilogue. Maybe a bit more in the case of an ambitious Viconia.

I really like this idea. I almost never chose to ascend because I want the romance to succeed. But with this I could have both. Godhood and a sweetie! Although I'm not sure how successfully you could change say...Aerie...she's already worshiping a gnome deity because she was grateful for being saved. I don't know if I could believe she could or would switch deities just because she loves CHARNAME. That's a stretch. But you say you've already gotten pretty far? What did you base the switch on? Or did you switch her at all?

Like Berelinde said, technical issues will, for all practical purposes, prevent Anomen from having alignments other than lawful good, lawful neutral, and chaotic neutral. Whatever is decided on will need to be justifiable within those parameters. This does not, however, prevent me from looking into, say, both an angry and hateful chaotic neutral and a redemption-seeking chaotic neutral. There are more than nine different kinds of people in the world, after all.

Anomen and Viconia should be the easiest to do this with since their personalities can be so versatile.
And your wrong. There are only three kinds of people. Two if you don't believe in the middle one.

As a follower of Helm, CN Anomen should *not* be getting his spells. Helm would be more likely to grant them to a LE cleric than a CN one. I'm not suggesting that you make him LE instead!

How big of an issue do you think this is? Should I overlook it in light of its place in the vanilla game, or should disabling his spells or swapping his class for a fighter of comparable stats be an option? Changing his deity would be an enormous amount of work, and hard to do right, but it's not out of the question.

I have never understood why Anomen wasn't 'removed from grace' in the first place. Losing his spells is a good step in the right direction, if not losing his priesthood totally.
In both 2nd & 3rd (3.5) edition the write-ups on Helm quote him as "the ultimate guardian, the ever-vigilant sentry who allows nothing to compromise his duty." and further on "He also fights the unbridled fury and destructive impulses of Garagos and Talos..." and even further on "Never betray your trust. Be vigilant. Stand, wait, and watch carefully. Be fair and diligent in the conduct of your orders....Careful planning always defeats rushed actions in the end. Always obey orders, providing those orders follow the dictates of Helm." Did I mention that Helm is Lawful?
It sounds to me as if Helm would be really teed-off with what Anomen did. Nor does it sound like he bothers much with 'hidden agendas'.
They do mention however a "Purification Ceremony which is a renewal of faith undergone by beings returning to the faith or atoning for a shortcoming in vigilance, loyalty, or worship."

[Zireael]

Significant others as CHARNAME's Chosen - yay.
Anomen not getting spells - yay too. Just because it doesn't fit Helm.

[Kulyok]

I think CHARNAME's greatest choice at the Throne of Bhaal is between godhood and her(his) loved one. So, "you can have your cake and eat it, too" choice(Viconia - still PC's lover and his chosen, and PC is a god) really cheapens it. It's like "Alistair can be king, Grey Warden, alive, NOT father of Old God Baby, and he will marry Warden and make her or him his queen and go do adventures with her, all at the same time! And they don't have to die in 30 years, too!"

[Izzy]

I think CHARNAME's greatest choice at the Throne of Bhaal is between godhood and her(his) loved one. So, "you can have your cake and eat it, too" choice(Viconia - still PC's lover and his chosen, and PC is a god) really cheapens it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a third choice. I've played this so much that 'black and white' are getting boring and it's time to add a little color. I agree it's not for everybody, but that's the point of 'choice'.

[phordicus]

i'd love an option where i have to sacrifice my loved one in order to become a god, especially the god of murder. it seems so obvious.

Edited by phordicus, 23 March 2011 - 03:55 AM.

[Izzy]

A couple three things...

The first is that I don't want to sacrifice my first and only priest/priestess. It defeats the purpose of being a god and having worshipers. You have to start collecting them before you start sacrificing them. Once you have a big enough following, if you want you can sacrifice a few of them, although it's a better idea to sacrifice those not in your service.

Second...How about 'Bioware Romance Additions'? That would make it BRA. Everyone would remember it.

And third...JR, do you have any one to help you with the writing of the 'adult encounters' yet? I have a very active...umm...shall we call it imagination? Would be glad to put it to good use.

[Destiny]

Would a mod like that work with Mass Effect also?