10 replies to this topic

[Kulyok]

Okay, today I completed the "good" path of Male City Elf Origin and found out at the end of the origin(from the girl I was supposed to marry) that Wardens can't marry or have families. I said "I'll be back for you", and she said "No, you won't. Wardens can't marry or have families". Meaning that Ser Jory *was* abandoning his pregnant wife, and meaning that PC or Alistair definitely couldn't marry Anora or each other.

(sigh) I know that developers would probably say: "Never mind what the characters say, they don't know the whole story". Or "Never mind what the Codex says, it's riddled with inconsistencies and it's deliberate, only our final intent matters". Yep, this is a perfect excuse to cover holes in the story, I agree. But what IS the truth? Can Wardens marry or not? I'm not asking about having children, as I don't care about that. But - when Alistair doesn't propose to non-noble Warden, is he being an asshole or is he following the Great Warden Rule: Thou Shall Not Marry?

[Archmage Silver]

I think this is one of those issues without a canon answer (yet). Personally I understand the phrase "No, you won't. Wardens can't marry or have families" as referring to the fact that Wardens have reduced lifespans and must eventually seek death in the Deep Roads, if they don't find it on the surface fighting darkspawn.

I don't see it as referring to any iron-bound rules of the Grey Wardens prohibiting marriage - I think they just don't marry because of the other facts.

I'm also interested in what would happen if a Warden had a child... would the darkspawn taint be a factor? Of course, this is ignoring the Morrigan plot and her possible baby, as I don't count that as a natural event, what with the dragon spirit and all that.

Unfortunately I don't have access to BioWare writers, otherwise I'd ask them.

[Eleima]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Archmage Silver on this particular topic. I don't have any concrete evidence, mind you, nothing in the Codex or the game that could solidly back this theory, but it would seem that marrying is inadvisable, not recommended, because a Warden is supposed to dedicate himself/herself to fighting darkspawn and defending the land from the Blight (when and if there is a Blight). That, and the reduced lifespan and reduced fertility (perhaps sterility, even) would be an incredible impediment to such a long-term relationship. That's not saying that Wardens couldn't, well, "mess around", or even have a discreet long-term relationship, but their duty would always have to come first. At least, that's the way I see it.

As for children... I'm not sure Wardens would even be capable of conceiving a child, never mind Morrigan's scheming (that was dark, black magic, anyways, doesn't count). In fact, I'm utterly convinced that the darkspawn taint would effectively result in total and definite sterility, and I've been convinced of it since day one (within a few hours of playing, minutes after the Joining, I'd worked that theory into a little piece of fanfic).

Of course, that's just my opinion, there's no definite answer that I could find, no official data on the matter. But I do dislike fanfics in which Alistair and/or the PC live happily ever after, happily married, especially the ones in which they have a string of little babies trailing behind them. It's just not realistic after the "I can't marry you because Wardens have a hard time having children" speech from Alistair...

[cmorgan]

I tend to agree with you, Eleima. Jory's story infers that few people know what the Ritual actually entails - the average person in Fereldan things of a Warden as a special kind of knight, and the details are hidden. The story breaks its own rules by talking too much about the taint, which few if any "outsiders" are supposed to know - after all, I can see the recruiting pitch now (spoilers follow)

Spoiler

Come, Heros and heroines of Ferelden! Join the Elite GreyWardens, Mighty Masters and Mistresses of Ancient legend! We are looking for the best, most powerful individuals in your tor. If you survive drinking the most foul blood of the nightmarish creaturs you don't even completely believe in (a 1 in 17 chance), then you get to be permanently or semi-permanently separated from your family, be sterilized, have dark visions that slowly drive you mad, get a shorter lifespan, and have to wander around the countryside being
a. set upon by random idiots who try to kill you,
b. be seen as a threat by almost all nobility so they set upon and try to kill you,
c. wander the Deep Roads watching nightmares unfold before your eyes while random evil creatures set upon you and try to kill you,
d. seek after a bunch of followers of different types, each of whom will drag you into quests that involve lots of very different ways of having everything in sight kill you,
and
e. become more powerful than an entire army, only to find out that the Blight has Leveling Powers™ and rises in power as you do, so that in the end there are lots more things to set upon you and kill you

Oh, and by the way, did we happen to mention that if you have not been poisoned, tortured, dismembered, slain, vivisected, experimented upon, or generally destroyed, we are probably going to require that you sacrifice your life trying to destroy an arch-dragonic god?

Offer valid only in Fereldin. Life Insurance not provided. This offer is not to be combined with any others, and divulging the contents of this flyer will result in a horde of GreyWardens sweeping in on Gryffin-back and killing you and anyone you have spoken to within the last 24 hours.

[Eleima]

Cmorgan, that was not only hilarious, but spot on. My favorite was "d". Yay, for random different quests to prove your worth before others will follow you in battle...

But, back on topic, I agree with Cmorgan, in the sense that Ser Jory is (supposed to be) the ultimate example of what your random Fereldan citizen knows of the Wardens. Remember, this is the guy who thought defeating the Blight would be a stroll in the woods (well, bright, happy woods, without any rabid critters in it), and that he would return to his wife in time to see his baby born.

All in all, I don't believe there is a "How to be Grey Warden" guidebook with rules etched in stone about marrying and settling down and having a family (at least trying). I'm just under the impression that it would be strongly discouraged, even frowned upon, by fellow Grey Wardens. Do what you have to behind closed doors, but duty to the Wardens *always* has to come first.

[Kulyok]

I suspect RIordan was the closest to the truth. When he offers to make Loghain a Grey Warden, Riordan says that nothing matters, not oaths of loyalty or threat of desertion or past sins, because the Joining binds the Wardens to the darkspawn. However you live, whatever you do, if you're a Warden, eventually you will seek them out - or they will find you.

But then again, it's strongly implied that all Wardens live together and stick together, and there's no "Okay, I've done your Joining, now I'm gonna go home to my wee ones. When there's a Blight, call me".

I would like some consistency, though. On one hand, everyone is cool with Alistair leaving the Wardens forever, becoming a king and possibly marrying and/or starting a family(and in the epilogue, they're cool with the Warden grabbing a title/travelling/staying in court), and, on the other hand, it's "DUTY TO TEH WARDENS NO FAMILY NO TITLE NO LIFE!!!11111!!!" all over the game. Sigh.

[Archmage Silver]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we run into these contradictory "canon lore facts" waaay back in the day, say the BG series et al?

It's almost as if they leave these things in without a definitive answer, so that we'll use our time to discuss them.

[Kulyok]

Heheh. Indeed! Well, yes and no: I mean, to me, it's always been canon that Alianna, PC's mother, was a priestess of Bhaal, and that Gorion lied to PC in his last letter. It's also been canon to me that elven PC aged faster(so she was twenty, not a hundred), and that during Time of Troubles, PC was eight or nine - so that she becomes around eighteen or twenty during BG1. But that's only me.

[persocom01]

Heheh. Indeed! Well, yes and no: I mean, to me, it's always been canon that Alianna, PC's mother, was a priestess of Bhaal, and that Gorion lied to PC in his last letter. It's also been canon to me that elven PC aged faster(so she was twenty, not a hundred), and that during Time of Troubles, PC was eight or nine - so that she becomes around eighteen or twenty during BG1. But that's only me.

I always liked gorion's version better.

[Cal Jones]

From what I understand, Wardens can marry but a Warden + Warden relationship produces no children.
Warden + non-Warden has a small chance of conceiving a child (see The Calling).
But yes, being partnered to a Warden would be pretty sucky, since they age faster and end up catching a nasty case of premature death.
Most Wardens appear to give up their family names and ties but Fereldan's a special case due to the death of Cailan and various other factors. It's likely, though, that even if you make Alistair king (I usually have him marry Anora) that he'll have a hard time reproducing. Unless Maric has other bastards, which is conceivable, then the Theirin bloodline is looking very shaky.

[Archmage Silver]

... It's likely, though, that even if you make Alistair king (I usually have him marry Anora) that he'll have a hard time reproducing. Unless Maric has other bastards, which is conceivable, then the Theirin bloodline is looking very shaky.

I'm sure the writers can find a way around it if they want to keep that regime going... although there are so many ways the game could end that I wouldn't want to guess how they'd do it.

Edited by Archmage Silver, 13 March 2010 - 11:01 AM.