36 replies to this topic

[the bigg]

2nd edition vs 3rd edition refresher...

Spoiler

In second edition (as used by BG2), the bonuses given by strength, dexterity and constitution were given in a very stupid way: a character with 14 dexterity and one with 8 dexterity would receive the same bonus to AC (I.E. nil), whereas one with 14 and one with 16 (1/3 of the difference than the case above) would net a +2 to AC.

In 3rd edition, by contrast, you get a +1 every two increases in the ability, with 10 and 11 granting no bonus (bonus=floor((ability-10/2): the 8 dex character would get -1 to AC, the 14 dex one would get +2, and the 16 dex would get +3.

This component aims to bring 3rd-edition style bonuses for abilities. My current implementation is as follows:

• Strength: Thac0 bonus follows the standard 3rd edition rule. Damage uses a similar rule, but enhances the effect (damage bonus = floor((str - 10) * 2 / 3) ) - this is because in 2nd edition damage bonus used to be larger, and because in 3rd edition two handed weapons received an extra damage bonus. Bend Bars/Lift Gates and Weight Allowance use a complex formula, but the end result is similar to the vanilla behavior (see  strength.pdf   26.17K   4983 downloads for graphs).
  Most importantly, exceptional strength is now irrelevant, even if it still shows up in the character screen.
  
• Dexterity: AC bonus, ranged thac0 bonus, and reaction bonus all follow the standard 3rd edition rule. Thieving skill bonuses aren't touched (their progression is already evened out between all possible ability values).
  
• Constitution: HP bonus (for both warriors and non-warriors) and Fatigue bonus follow the standard 3rd edition rule. Regeneration Rate and Minimum Dice aren't altered, since finding values for them is more trouble than it is worth (minimum dice must be <= 4, stacking multiple regeneration effects doesn't work nicely).
  Notably, this component means that all classes would get extra HP from all values of Con (previously, 17+ on a non-warrior was wasted).
  
• Intelligence and Wisdom: no effect, since Int and Wis offer no mechanical bonus to non-casters outside of specific situations.
  
• Charisma: Reaction Bonus is already evened out. Discount is now max(5 * ((cha - 10) / 2),0).

Does anybody have suggestions on this?

Edited by the bigg, 06 February 2010 - 03:59 PM.

[Mike1072]

Does anybody have suggestions on this?

2nd edition modifiers are messed up. I've wanted to do something similar for a while, with some extra bonuses for stats (like an actual saving throw bonus from WIS) and ensure that each statistic value offers something different from the previous (so if a bonus to X is gained on even levels, the bonus to Y would be gained on odd levels). Since adding extra stuff like saving throw bonuses would have to be done in a hackish manner, I never got around to developing a complete table.

For strength, getting rid of the exceptional strength bonuses is paramount since things that increase strength from 18->19 are commonplace and this grants ridiculous improvements. I hadn't planned on doing away with exceptional strength completely, but that would simplify things for sure.

For constitution, I was thinking of modifying the HP table so that warriors and non-warriors had different progression rates. So, having 14 CON might give a warrior +2 HP/level, but it would give a non-warrior only +1 HP/level. This way, you couldn't cheap out on the stat and still get maximum benefits. I'd explain it RP-wise as a character having an innate ability to become really beefy, but only if the character trains as a warrior and doesn't laze around all day reading magical scrolls.

[the bigg]

I don't want to do hackish stuff (anymore), so save bonuses for WIS are a no go (not to mention it'd be a nightmare to balance).

I believe that completely dummying out exceptional strength is the only sane way to handle the thing (set to X items can be tweaked, but +X strength item will always remain broken).

Regarding the HPs, I maintain that Con bonuses should be equal across classes - warriors being more durable is already represented by them rolling a d10/d12 rather than a d4, I think

The odd/even trick is easy to do for Dex and Str, and it's already in place for Cha (shopping price decreases for every point over 10). Of course, I'd still need a second bonus from Con (death/poison/paralyzation saves are an idea, but it's hard to balance spells for that).

[Steve]

I've always thought that high stats should cause a reduction in XP, based on people with high skills learn less from experience. Of course, this goes against ADnD v2 which gives +10% XP for character's prime stat 16 or more.

[the bigg]

bonus/malus to XP can cause problems when Mazed.

[AndrewB]

I've always wondered why Int/Wisdom greater than 18 never really did anything useful, like grant additional spell slots or an effective casting level for damage/dispel rolls.

[the bigg]

I've always wondered why Int/Wisdom greater than 18 never really did anything useful, like grant additional spell slots or an effective casting level for damage/dispel rolls.

Actually, Wis over 18 does grant extra spell slots (19 grants an extra 1st and 5th level, for instance). Int 19 allows you to know an unlimited number of spells per day, but 20+ is (almost) completely useless (21 allows you to resist 4 hits from a Mind Flayer).

Either way, I'm not going to program in additional bonuses, I'm sticking to altering the table for existing ones.

[AndrewB]

Actually, Wis over 18 does grant extra spell slots (19 grants an extra 1st and 5th level, for instance). Int 19 allows you to know an unlimited number of spells per day, but 20+ is (almost) completely useless (21 allows you to resist 4 hits from a Mind Flayer).

I didn't know that about Wisdom (maybe I should play divine casters more often ), do you continue to gain spells past 19? It's been so long since I've played a game without the Easier Spell Learning component from bg2 tweaks, I can hardly remember how it was before.

Whatever you decide to change, I'm sure it will make the game better.

Edited by AndrewB, 18 March 2010 - 01:31 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I didn't know that about Wisdom (maybe I should play divine casters more often ), do you continue to gain spells past 19?

Yes, it's controlled by the mxsplwis.2da file.

[FlameWing]

I noticed a couple discrepancies in the implementation of these components. One of these discrepancies has been found and fixed already in v2.31 -- the Con bonuses -- but the issue remains for Dex. All Dex bonuses are shifted down one row much as the Con bonuses were, and for the same cause -- in fact, Dex 10 is currently gaining a -1 penalty to reaction and missile adjustments. From the description, including the comment in the tpa file, this would seem to be in error.

Also, the damage bonus from strength does not match the readme -- readme states 'floor((str - 10) * 2 / 3) )', but the tpa file gives substantially less.

Loving these components, by the way :-)

[the bigg]

In both cases, the current behavior is intended, even if I didn't update the documentation (as per Mike's post, giving some bonuses on odd values and some on even values means that using a book to go 12 -> 13 isn't a waste). Regarding STR, I personally prefer the formula you quoted, but the current behavior is more rational.

Edited by the bigg, 08 June 2010 - 12:08 PM.

[Galactygon]

I don't want to do hackish stuff (anymore), so save bonuses for WIS are a no go (not to mention it'd be a nightmare to balance).

Necroposting a bit, I once got around to implementing something like this and saving throws versus damage type. The only problem is one small flaw in the engine that forces me to use shell spells with delays of 0. I'd like to keep your interest, so I'll explain how it works:

A nice feature about external .eff files is that you can exclude them one-by-one if you are protected against whatever sectypes they have. I create pairs of .effs with different sectypes. One pair consists on an effect that grants +1 to whatever saving throw the spell has, while the other incurs a -1 penalty. Normally, these pairs of effects cancel out. But when you have a .spl or an .itm that grants protection against certain sectypes, you can tip the balance between the pairs of effects.

Ideally, you would place the .effs at the start of whatever .spl you roll the saving throw before the effects that require a saving throw. The external .effs would have a duration set to 0. Just look at how IWD2 excludes certain races from spells, it's pretty much the exact same thing, except we're modifying the saving throw for a split second with those external .effs.

But here is why it doesn't work: the engine rolls the saving throws and takes into account the luck bonuses before the extension header is fired rather than before the first effect requiring the roll. And the weird thing is, this is not true for magic resistance, and (randomly) for damage resistance.

If I set the duration of the external .effs to 1, and have a shell spell fired with a delay of 0 just to make sure the saving throws are rerolled, lo and behold, you can mimick saving throws against certain spell types. Try it yourself. The problem is, during that one second when the saving throw of the .cre is tampered with, many things can happen and making a shell spell for spell in the game is ridiculous, breaks cross compatibility, etc.

All that needs to be done is for the .exe to calculate luck bonuses and saving throws at the first effect that requires them, and this tweak is as good as done.

-Galactygon

[the bigg]

I think I can approximate this to 90% of accuracy if Wis gave a direct bonus to Save vs. Spells and Cons gave it to Save vs. Death/Poison/Hold/Morning Sickness (better IMHO than attempting to figure out if mod spell #1235 classifies as Reflex, Fortitude or Will). I'd need a constantly running script to detect stat changes, but this isn't exactly rocket science - I don't know why I classified this as 'hackish'.

The matter about game balance still stands, though - the altered Dex table doesn't give more than a +2 over the standard table (14 dex goes from +0 AC to +2AC) and buffs similarly enemies, whereas Cos/Wis-related saves gives an unbounded bonus (+4 for somebody with a natural 18) and doesn't apply to enemies.

[Mike1072]

I think I can approximate this to 90% of accuracy if Wis gave a direct bonus to Save vs. Spells and Cons gave it to Save vs. Death/Poison/Hold/Morning Sickness (better IMHO than attempting to figure out if mod spell #1235 classifies as Reflex, Fortitude or Will). I'd need a constantly running script to detect stat changes, but this isn't exactly rocket science - I don't know why I classified this as 'hackish'.

That was me. To detect 25 different values of an ability for 6 players, you'd need 150 script blocks and would have to continuously apply spells. I can think of more efficient ways, but they don't allow the same flexibility.

The matter about game balance still stands, though - the altered Dex table doesn't give more than a +2 over the standard table (14 dex goes from +0 AC to +2AC) and buffs similarly enemies, whereas Cos/Wis-related saves gives an unbounded bonus (+4 for somebody with a natural 18) and doesn't apply to enemies.

The changes should affect enemies too (patch all creatures).

[the bigg]

That was me. To detect 25 different values of an ability for 6 players, you'd need 150 script blocks and would have to continuously apply spells. I can think of more efficient ways, but they don't allow the same flexibility.

300, although I was counting per-stat, and I don't need to apply spells every round:
IF
Global("wisdom","LOCALS",1)
!StatCheck(Myself,WIS,1)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ApplySpellRES("RemoveWisdomBonus1",Myself)
SetGlobal("Wisdom","LOCALS",0)
END

<...>

IF
Global("wisdom","LOCALS",0)
StatCheck(Myself,WIS,1)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ApplySpellRES("WisBonus1",Myself)
SetGlobal("wisdom","LOCALS",1)
END

Of course, for Wis I'm interested in even values (10-11 = no bonus, 12-13 = +1) and odd values for Con (9-10 = -1, 11-12 = no bonus), so it's actually 50 blocks in total for the two stats.

[Galactygon]

You would still have to remove the previous bonuses if, for example your WIS decreases for some reason. And stunned characters do not run scripts.

Is it possible to externalize the effects applied to the characters via .2da tables, and have the .exe to do all the stuff?

-Galactygon

[the bigg]

You would still have to remove the previous bonuses if, for example your WIS decreases for some reason.

That's what the removewisdombonus1 spell is for. Let's assume a character who starts out with 3 WIS and later reads a Tome of Understanding:
creation - variable "wisdom" is 0, WIS is 3, bonus is 0
script runs - variable "wisdom" is 3, WIS is 3, bonus is -4 (applying wisdombonus3)
read Tome - variable "wisdom" is 3, WIS is 4, bonus is -4
script runs - variable "wisdom" is 0, WIS is 4, bonus is 0 (applying removewisdombonus3)
script runs - variable "wisdom" is 4, WIS is 4, bonus is -3 (applying wisdombonus4)

And stunned characters do not run scripts.

A stunned actor dies no matter what 80% of the times, and the lucky survivors will adjust to the new WIS score as soon as he loses his stun (effects that change WIS are few and far between, so this isn't going to cause major inconsistencies). I'm more worried that players can workaround a stat decrease by turning AI off, but even that's a pretty obscure exploit (simply because effects that alter stats aren't terribly common).

Is it possible to externalize the effects applied to the characters via .2da tables, and have the .exe to do all the stuff?

Maybe, but 1) I'm not Ascension64 or Taimon, so I'd need to ask them to research it for me and 2) I don't want to make stuff completely unavailable to Mac users unless EXE tweaks are 100% needed (Ex. Widescreen, Wspatck for all).

[the bigg]

One thing that occurred to me is that, while this doesn't fit in any way with the canon proposed in any rule set, it would be sort of cool to distribute save bonuses like this (rather than Con -> Hold and Wis -> Spell):

Int -> Wand, Breath, Poly
Wis -> Spell
Cha -> Hold

By doing this, you can't put 3 in a stat without suffering some sort of consequence (well, unless you use the Ring of Cheese), and a non-spellcaster receives an advantage to having 16/16/16/12/12/12 rather than the 'boring' 18/18/18/10/10/10 (namely, the former character will have a +1 to all saves).

[the bigg]

One thing that occurred to me is that, while this doesn't fit in any way with the canon proposed in any rule set, it would be sort of cool to distribute save bonuses like this (rather than Con -> Hold and Wis -> Spell):

Int -> Wand, Breath, Poly
Wis -> Spell
Cha -> Hold

By doing this, you can't put 3 in a stat without suffering some sort of consequence (well, unless you use the Ring of Cheese), and a non-spellcaster receives an advantage to having 16/16/16/12/12/12 rather than the 'boring' 18/18/18/10/10/10 (namely, the former character will have a +1 to all saves).

This suggestion must have silenced everybody either by sucking or rocking too much. Before I code it, do you people believe it's better to do that way or by staying a bit closer to 3rd ED canon (CON -> Hold, WIS -> Spell)?

[Jarno Mikkola]

This suggestion must have silenced everybody either by sucking or rocking too much. Before I code it, do you people believe it's better to do that way or by staying a bit closer to 3rd ED canon (CON -> Hold, WIS -> Spell)?

I honestly don't know... but I would like the; Int -> Wand, Breath, Poly: Wis -> Spell: Cha -> Hold .... a bit more, perhaps.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 06 September 2010 - 08:21 AM.