Jump to content


Photo

Vecna


  • Please log in to reply
353 replies to this topic

#101 Daulmakan

Daulmakan

    Comfortably numb

  • Member
  • 1065 posts

Posted 18 June 2010 - 07:12 AM

Am writing the aftermath and have come to a question need help with,
In the D+D multiverse i need to come up with a ranking of gods\heros\characters etc in terms of power.
Ie Avatars of Odin and Helm meet on the astral plane, words are exchanged, a fight ensues , who wins ? Obviously do not need to rank every creature but an overall picture is essential, and it would be useful if most modders,players agreed.

Here are Odin's avatar's stats fom Legends & Lore:

Odin (greater god)

Often referred to as the "All-Father," Odin (sometimes called "Woden," "Othinn," or "Votan") is the leader and creator of the Norse pantheon. Along with his brothers, Vili and Ve, he slew the great frost giant Ymir and made the earth out of the giant's body. He also, directly or indirectly, fathered most of the Norse gods and helped create the first man and woman. Odin's first concern is battle, but he is also the god of knowledge, wisdom, poetry, and inspiration.

Odin has many powers. When sitting on his throne in the hall Valaskialf, Odin can see anything happening anywhere. He can use telepathy (as the spell) on any being within three hundred miles of one of his avatars, and he can inspire a berserk rage (as the spell above) in up to 1,000 men at a time. Odin is also an accomplished magician, and can use any wizard spell as an 18th level wizard. He possesses a magic ring, Draupnir, which produces a non-magical twin of itself every night. This twin is worth 3,000 gp on the open market. Odin also carries a rune wand which has the following powers: It functions as a rod of rulership, can summon 1d4 elementals of Odin's choice, can store 12 spells of his choice, drain 6 life levels and 100 hit points from anyone but Odin who touches it, and cause the instantaneous death of any mortal.

Unlike most greater gods, Odin cannot raise the dead, and can himself be killed (but only during Ragnarok). Healing anyone forces him into a deep sleep for 1d10 days. Odin rarely uses this healing power, as Loki has demonstrated a great propensity for causing trouble when Odin is indisposed.

In his true form, Odin appears to be a man of about fifty with a patch over one eye (he traded the missing eye for a draft from the Well of Knowledge). He has a bald head and a long gray beard, and usually wears a gray tunic beneath a hooded cloak of blue. He is often accompanied by two old wolves and two ravens which perch on his shoulder.

Role-playing Notes: Heroic, proud, and stern, Odin resembles the typical Norse chieftain in temperament and outlook. He is primarily concerned with power ? his own in Asgard, and that of his worshipers in Midgard. Only two things will make Odin angry with a worshiper: helping a giant or losing a battle.

Odin has several animals that aid him in maintaining his dominion over both realms. Perhaps the most impressive of these are Freke and Gere, two aged wolves with graying muzzles who wander the planes gathering information for him. These wolves can teleport at will throughout Gladsheim, can see any hidden object, and can sense all things magical. (AC 4, MV 24, HD 9, HP 72, AT 1, Dmg 2d10, MR 25%, INT very, ML 18, AL n, SZ 6', XP: 2,000.)

In addition, he has two ravens, Hugin (thought) and Munin (memory) who perch on his shoulder. Odin uses them as spies and messengers, sending them on various tasks to the far parts of Gladsheim. He can see through their eyes or speak through their beaks, and often uses them to gather information on particular areas of interest, or to warn his worshipers of impending attacks. They can teleport to or from any location in Gladsheim, and are immune to magical control. (AC 2, MV 1/48f, HD 4, HP 28, AT 1, Dmg 1d8, MR 30%, INT very, ML 18, AL n, SZ 3', XP: 975.) Omens from Odin are usually delivered by his ravens.

Odin rides an eight-legged steed named Sleipnir. This magical horse can move across any surface (including water) and fly through the air. Sleipnir can also teleport to or from any location in Gladsheim, and allows no one to mount him without Odin's permission. (AC -1, MV 24, HD 16, HP 128, AT 4, Dmg 2d10, MR 25%, INT very, ML 18, AL In, SZ 12', XP: 13,000.)

Statistics: AL cg; WAL any; AoC war, wisdom, poetry, knowledge; SY blue eye.


Odin's Avatar (fighter 20, wizard 12)

Odin's avatar usually takes the form of an old man with an eyepatch and a slouch hat. He carries Gungnir (see below) as if it were nothing more than a walking stick. If sent to Midgard to fight a battle, however, the avatar takes the form of a splendidly muscled man wearing steel armor. He can draw upon any school of magic for his spells.

Str 24 Dex 20 Con 18
Int 20 Wis 20 Cha 18
MV 18 SZ 6' MR 50%
AC -3 HD 24 HP 192

#AT 2 THAC0 -3 Dmg 1d6 + 5 (spear) + 12

Special Att/Def: Odin's avatar carries Odin's spear, Gungnir. This + 5 weapon has several special abilities: in battle, it points at the most powerful enemy; when held aloft, all enemies who can see it are struck with fear; anyone allowed to touch the spear is blessed with a double effect prayer; anyone that touches the weapon against the avatar's will is polymorphed into an ant (save to negate).


Duties of the Priesthood

To be a priest of Odin, one must be a chieftain of a tribe. Odin's priests must like fighting. In addition, they must be good tacticians and leaders of men. They must always be in the front lines during battle.

Requirements: AB must meet requirements for fighter class; AL any; WP any; AR a; SP all, animal, combat, divination, elemental, protection, summoning, thought, time, war, wards (*); PW 1) one extra hp per level; 10) THAC0 of fighter of same level; TU turn.


item_pack.jpg   Drows.jpg

 


#102 jube

jube
  • Member
  • 169 posts

Posted 18 June 2010 - 11:34 AM

Yes have all the rulebooks ( up to 3rd ed, past that its not D+D as i know it, as a recent try at NWN2 has shown me ) but am looking for other peoples opinions , and not just odin vs helm, but a list best to worst, much like a debate on who is the best heavyweight boxer of all time, everyone has an opinion! I would like to hear it!

#103 Miloch

Miloch

    Barbarian

  • Modder
  • 6579 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 04:33 AM

Well, of course Gruumsh would kick everyone else's butt :whistling:.

I don't know if most folks in the Realms really rank their gods like that, though no doubt it has, or had, a real application, at least during the Time of Troubles. You might check Faiths & Avatars, which classes deities into "greater powers", "intermediate powers", "lesser powers" etc. I think most of the other deity supplements do the same sort of thing.

Infinity Engine Contributions
Aurora * BG1 NPC * BG1 Fixpack * Haiass * Infinity Animations * Level 1 NPCs * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * BG:EE * BGII:EE * IWD:EE
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * Creature Checker * Creature Fixer * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle


#104 jube

jube
  • Member
  • 169 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 07:05 AM

True its not a topic often discussed since it really has no effect on gameplay below 18th ( MU ) lv. But above that when one is constantly facing avatars while exploring the astral its more relevant. I am ( for the Vecna mod ) trying to define the history and relevant importance ( through power levels ) of the entire multiverse, it started with questions like
" Vecna cultists discover the eye and hand on an alternative prime ( forgotten realms ) Does Vecna have the raw power to planeshift there, destroy any Celestial opposition and bugger off again ?"

But more and more questions like that reared their ugly heads till i realized i needed some sort ( even if very sketchy ) of overall view of gods and " higher powers ", and indeed i could fit my weird history into it ! Obviously i could ( and will ) define my own rankings, Based on legends and lore or similar, but none of the books ( except maybe the forgotten realms supplement itself ) will tell me where Helm etc etc etc might fit into all this.

At the end of the day i need to get the final release out soon as other commitments press, so going to define my own soon , and just let people moan at me !

#105 Miloch

Miloch

    Barbarian

  • Modder
  • 6579 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 09:10 AM

Actually, the Faiths & Avatars supplement does give specifics, at least within the Faerunian pantheon: for example, Talos rules over Auril, Malar and Umberlee; Silvanus outranks Eldath and Mielikki; Tyr leads Ilmater and Torm; Oghma leads Deneir, Lliira and Milil. It also says that the power of any deity is specifically linked to the number of worshippers he or she has. A concept best expressed in Terry Pratchett's novel Small Gods, in which a turtle undergoes divine ascension when a crowd witnesses it perform a "miracle" (by killing a priest after being dropped by an eagle onto his head :)).

Infinity Engine Contributions
Aurora * BG1 NPC * BG1 Fixpack * Haiass * Infinity Animations * Level 1 NPCs * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * BG:EE * BGII:EE * IWD:EE
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * Creature Checker * Creature Fixer * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle


#106 jube

jube
  • Member
  • 169 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 10:38 AM

Coooool, thank you very very much, off to study it now.
BTW.... should i update my IA code to Beta 5 or wait a bit, ie is beta 6 coming within a month cos thats as much modding time as i have left.

#107 Miloch

Miloch

    Barbarian

  • Modder
  • 6579 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 11:24 AM

"Within a month" probably, yes... in fact it probably wouldn't take more than a couple days, but laziness gets in the way, and anyhow I had some updates to BP and Aurora scheduled before IA, and those might take a while. Anyhow, it won't hurt to use IA v5 in the meantime, which you seem to be attempting :P.

Infinity Engine Contributions
Aurora * BG1 NPC * BG1 Fixpack * Haiass * Infinity Animations * Level 1 NPCs * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * BG:EE * BGII:EE * IWD:EE
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * Creature Checker * Creature Fixer * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle


#108 Chevalier

Chevalier

    Knight of the Realms

  • Modder
  • 2405 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 02:31 PM

jube,

Not sure just what you are tying to do (I don't need spoilers) with the gods, but I think most direct conflicts between gods should be kept within the Faerūn Pantheon.

I Ride for the King!


a.k.a. Chev


#109 Miloch

Miloch

    Barbarian

  • Modder
  • 6579 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 03:01 PM

I think most direct conflicts between gods should be kept within the Faerūn Pantheon.

If it took place on Faerūn, sure, I would agree. But it seems to take place on the Astral Plane, which links not only all the outer and inner planes, but all the prime material worlds as well, of which Toril is only one of a multitude, and Faerūn is only one continent on that world. So it would be odd indeed to encounter only gods of one world's continent on the Astral Plane.

Infinity Engine Contributions
Aurora * BG1 NPC * BG1 Fixpack * Haiass * Infinity Animations * Level 1 NPCs * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * BG:EE * BGII:EE * IWD:EE
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * Creature Checker * Creature Fixer * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle


#110 jube

jube
  • Member
  • 169 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 03:17 PM

"jube,

Not sure just what you are tying to do (I don't need spoilers) with the gods, but I think most direct conflicts between gods should be kept within the Faerûn Pantheon. "

Unfortunately not in this case. The powers of Greyhawk are much more battle focused than the powers of Faerûn, and in my opinion would see Faerûn as easy meat, a land ripe for mass conversions to Greyhawk deities, ( and to the chaotic characters\dietes just a good place to raise hell and loot, Indeed i had a P+P campaign where a bunch of 25th lv CE characters from Greyhawk plotted to take out elminster and the annoying Harpers just for being so stuck up ) but there would have to be a magical bridge, or other means of travel, which until i introduced the planes did not exist ( in BG2 ), now there is plane travel and an astral plane Gods of all pantheons need to defend their turf a lot better or lose it !
But without spoiling to much the final choice for the party at the end of Vecna will propel the party directly into this cross planular power struggle, the start of which is obvious, as soon as you put the hand and eye of vecna in a campaign you KNOW vecna cultists wont be far behind :)

Edited by jube, 20 June 2010 - 03:18 PM.


#111 jube

jube
  • Member
  • 169 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 03:19 PM

I think most direct conflicts between gods should be kept within the Faerūn Pantheon.

If it took place on Faerūn, sure, I would agree. But it seems to take place on the Astral Plane, which links not only all the outer and inner planes, but all the prime material worlds as well, of which Toril is only one of a multitude, and Faerūn is only one continent on that world. So it would be odd indeed to encounter only gods of one world's continent on the Astral Plane.



Yep exactly.

#112 Chevalier

Chevalier

    Knight of the Realms

  • Modder
  • 2405 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 04:42 PM

Here is how I think a fight between Odin and Helm would go. They have a conflict over a powerful item and are about to fight. Thor, as Odin champion, clams the right to fight for Odin. As now Thor and Helm square off AO whisks Helm away. AO, as over god, tells Helm not to cause a war between pantheons.
Later on Sigil a few followers of Thor tease a few followers of Helm about Helm running away. :tease: Helm's team attacks Thor's and both gods grant extra powers to their followers and a grand battle takes place! :fish:

If you look into AO, he has absolute control on Faerūn. Greyhawk's gods could only make trouble on Faerūn if he lets them (say to test a god or two). On other planes he would be very powerful (not on other worlds just other planes) and has total control over his gods. I have read many 2nd Ed AD&D realms novels including the Finder series about the gods and they even deal with how the gods are concerned about possible conflict between different world's pantheons.

I Ride for the King!


a.k.a. Chev


#113 jube

jube
  • Member
  • 169 posts

Posted 21 June 2010 - 02:03 AM

Hmmm, Interesting, From the rule books every god is ultimate master in his\her own realm, But that statement is illogical when you consider the realms are connected, AND that the gods constantly fight over territory and followers. So i am thinking every god is not "ultimate" in their own realm they are just more powerful by a large factor when in their own realm, and the only thing stopping invasion is not any godlike agreement but the balance of power, ( much like the cold war but with many parties ). So AOs ability to stop greyhawk gods will depend on AOs raw ( on home ground ) power vs the invader. I think your version of the fight would apply to most circumstances since gods tend to work through followers, but then there is Vecna who from the beginning has a capacity to change the multiverse as we know it ( and has managed it twice ) and the personality not to take heed of any rules made by lazy gods :).
I think though you have answered one question, if AO is really really powerful there would be no interplanular conflict as i had envisioned, but Vecna i believe would still find a way.
In my history the gods are not the most powerful beings in the multiverse and not the first to exist either, in that way i explain Vecna and magic, and define what "ultimate " power actually means.

#114 Chevalier

Chevalier

    Knight of the Realms

  • Modder
  • 2405 posts

Posted 21 June 2010 - 04:51 AM

From Xan dialog:

In the beginning were the Elder Gods, who created Faerun and created in their images. Not humans, not yet - titans. Predictably, the creations were as arrogant as the creators, and as such, eventually they tried to challenge their gods. The Elder Gods cursed and destroyed the entire race.

Presumably in remorse, they then departed from this universe, leaving behind the least of their number - Ao, who now is known as Ao the Overfather.

Then, the time of giants came. Aggressive and prone to intestine strife as they were, they doomed themselves to a slow fall into chaos and savagery, as have their descendants: ogres, ettins and others.

At last, the Creator Races were destroyed in a great cataclysm. It is said - somewhat poetically, perhaps, that the very being of Faerun cried out, and from that grief were born those known as the Younger Gods. Corellon Latherian was among them.

Then, of course, the new gods created their own races in their images - the Stout Folk and the Fair Folk. For a time, they even worked together, creating the gnomish race - not wholly either. Evil gods, however, did not sit idle, and corrupted many of their children - goblin kin and deep dwarves, duergar...

This will give you some idea of Ao place in things. Ao is not really a god in away. He has no worshipers and very few even know that he exists. I don't think even someone like Xan should know about him.

Yes, Vecna is a bit different case.

I Ride for the King!


a.k.a. Chev


#115 jube

jube
  • Member
  • 169 posts

Posted 21 June 2010 - 09:22 AM

Wow that is SO cool and fits my history like a hand in a glove, now if i can just tie Toril pre history into a similar timeline ( Miloch ? ) i am away!!! My history will just be a fuller and worked out explanation of The nature of what is called " the elder gods" , where they came from and what they are and their powers, and why they " left ", ( basically filling in the blanks ) and obviously at the same time defining Ao. In fact will write my history out and post it here, dont think will spoil anything and will let you guys play devils advocate and reveal any holes. Thanks again mate ( and Miloch ), this all saves loads of time trawling through manuals.

#116 Miloch

Miloch

    Barbarian

  • Modder
  • 6579 posts

Posted 22 June 2010 - 01:27 AM

I don't know if Ao has any power or even interest outside Realmspace (the FR/Toril "solar system") where yes, he seems to have absolute power, more or less. So I don't think his involvement would be relevant to a confrontation between deities on the Astral or some other plane. On top of that, a lot of FR deities are "multispheric" meaning they have worshippers on several different worlds. So on Toril, Tyr might have to abide by Ao's rules, but in Earth lore, he abides by Odin's. There's a lot on this sort of thing on pages 4 and 14 of Faiths & Avatars.

There's an FR timeline here, and others if you do a web search. Also a list of FR gods and some idea of how they rank here, though several of those are "dead" so Faiths is the best guide.

Infinity Engine Contributions
Aurora * BG1 NPC * BG1 Fixpack * Haiass * Infinity Animations * Level 1 NPCs * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * BG:EE * BGII:EE * IWD:EE
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * Creature Checker * Creature Fixer * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle


#117 Chevalier

Chevalier

    Knight of the Realms

  • Modder
  • 2405 posts

Posted 22 June 2010 - 02:56 AM

Yes, some gods and many non-human gods have worshipers on more than one world. Is the Tyr on Faerūn really the same one from the Norse pantheon? :unsure: Thay might be the same god or different aspects of the same god or different gods that are similar or one god now split in two? If we bring Spelljamming into it each crystal sphere has it's own rules so a god can be dead in one sphere (more like dead to that sphere) and alive in others. I know this makes no sense to us :crazy: , but who are we to understand the ways of gods!

I Ride for the King!


a.k.a. Chev


#118 Shaitan

Shaitan
  • Member
  • 800 posts

Posted 22 June 2010 - 03:22 AM

Odin, Tyr, Thor, Baldur at least names from the old scandinavian pantheons.

#119 Daulmakan

Daulmakan

    Comfortably numb

  • Member
  • 1065 posts

Posted 22 June 2010 - 08:06 AM

I always figured Helm was a copy of Heimdall. And there's a Tyr in norse mythology too.

item_pack.jpg   Drows.jpg

 


#120 jube

jube
  • Member
  • 169 posts

Posted 22 June 2010 - 10:31 AM

Yes, some gods and many non-human gods have worshipers on more than one world. Is the Tyr on Faerūn really the same one from the Norse pantheon? :unsure: Thay might be the same god or different aspects of the same god or different gods that are similar or one god now split in two? If we bring Spelljamming into it each crystal sphere has it's own rules so a god can be dead in one sphere (more like dead to that sphere) and alive in others. I know this makes no sense to us :crazy: , but who are we to understand the ways of gods!



First what the hell is spelljamming :)
Although true each universe,shore,"crystal sphere" has its own rules ( including changes to fundimental laws such as gravity and magic ) they all have the same time ( as do all the planes, quoted from the manual of the planes ). So unless a god can specifically defy time in his stats they cant be alive and dead, nor in 2 places at the same time ( excluding Avatars ). But they are hardly likely to tell their followers that !!!! More like they will use their other powers to pretend they can :)