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All things Dak'kon


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#1 Qwinn

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 12:16 PM

Okay, I'm considering a few things related to Dak'kon, interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.

In v4.0, I already decided to take away the damage bonus that I had added to the high-morale Streaming version of Dak'kon's blade. I'm now considering removing -all- changes to the blades, and just leaving them as they were coded. Here's my thinking as to why (beyond the fact that this change was unpopular among a minority of players, and that it really is a balance issue rather than a straightforward fix):

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm referring to the highest level versions of the blades.

The biggest thing that bothered me about the way the blades were coded is that the AC on the mid-morale Chained version was 3 AC -better- than the AC on the high morale Streaming Blade. The chained blade gave -6 AC, and the Streaming Blade gave -3 AC and one additional 3rd level spell. So, doing the circle with Dak'kon seemed like a massive nerf with the blade change enabled (I still think anyone who would prefer a single 3rd level spell slot over a permanent -3 AC is smoking crack).

But upon review, perhaps the designers were taking Dak'kon's personal stat changes into account for balance reasons. Going through the circle also gives Dak'kon +1 STR, +2 DEX and +2 CON. That +2 DEX effectively neutralizes 2 of the 3 AC penalty that you get from the sword change.

If you consider the changes to Dak'kon himself and to his sword as a single event, then going through the Circle with him changes him in the following ways:

+1 STR
+1 AC (penalty)
+2 CON
+1 3rd level spell slot.

*Overall*, I'd have to say it's not a really bad idea to take him through the Circle, which is the idea that was really bothering me. The sword gets nerfed to hell, but combined with the stats upgrade I think most people would consider it still worth doing. The overall 1 AC penalty still sucks and is pretty much unjustified IMO, but the other 3 benefits do outweigh it, IMO.

So, if we look at it in this way, what do you guys think? Reverse the changes to Dak'kon's blade, and leave them the way they were coded (meaning, Dak'kon personally gets better and his sword gets worse, which seems to contradict the lore but might've been done for balance reasons?) or keep the balance changes I previously made?




The other thing I'm considering is, since it's possible that scient will get the strength progression fixes in for this version, to beef up the +1 STR he gets for going through the circle. In the vanilla game, when you first take Dak'kon through the Circle, he gets the +1 STR mentioned above, which takes him from 17 to 18. A plain old 18. Which as a fighter, Dak'kon really shouldn't be able to have, he should get some percentile as a fighter. Then, at the very end of the game if you do things perfectly right, he gets yet another +1 STR which, because it's a buggy dialogue bonus, takes you straight to 19.

What I'm thinking is, first time through the Circle, give Dak'kon +3 strength, which through the progression will set his strength to 18/60. This gives him the percentile strength bonus that he's really due as a fighter. Then, on the second upgrade at the end of the game, give him +4 strength which will take him to 19, same as what he would've wound up at in the vanilla game. (If those seem like huge boosts, he also gets to 21 DEX and 21 CON in that final upgrade, so it's consistent).



Whatcha guys think? And yes, do consider these two together. By doing this, I'm slightly improving the benefits of going through the Circle for Dak'kon, giving him 18/60 instead of just 18 strength... which could be considered a 2nd-edition-rules-legitimate way to balance the odd penalty you get for upgrading his sword without making changes to the sword itself.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 01 January 2010 - 12:16 PM.


#2 -Guest-

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 12:24 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can all these be still considered fixes? They sound more like balance tweaks to me.

#3 Qwinn

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 12:30 PM

I'm actually discussing -removing- what was previously implemented as a balance fix. But even so, it's a little more complicated than you seem to believe. Allow me to give a little history here:

In the vanilla game, due to morale being horribly bugged, it is (almost) impossible to get Dak'kon's blade to change based on his morale, because all changes to morale get wiped out every 8 game hours. You needed either astronomical luck or massive metagaming knowledge to get the blade to change, in fact, I don't think anyone actually figured out what you needed to do to get the blade to change until scient and I investigated this, 8 years after the game's release. And even if you got the blade to change, there was a very good chance that you'd lose the upgrade the next time it got checked a few levels later.

So, the way the vanilla game released, a bug was preventing the balance issue from manifesting in game. By fixing the bugs with morale, we -introduced- the balance issue that "upgrading" the blade was actually a really nasty penalty to the blade as they had been coded. Since the balance issue did not exist until we fixed the bug that prevented the "upgraded" blade from showing up in game, it (at least IMO) became pretty much a requirement that we address the balance issue as well.

Now, if you're asking, do the changes to the way the fighter exceptional strength tree is handled count as a fix, I rather think it does, yes. The way raising strength was handled in the vanilla game is horribly inconsistent, totally illogical and just a total mess. For an extensive discussion, see: http://www.shsforums...showtopic=38533

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 01 January 2010 - 12:41 PM.


#4 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 02:41 PM

Is this a trend with you currently, to lose confidence in your changes and revert back to the original state? You ended up doing the same thing with the sensory stone in another thread...

I think it'd be pretty stupid for the blade to get nerfed as it supposedly "improves". Whether or not a -different- aspect of the character neutralizes the nerf is irrelevant, it still doesn't make sense in itself.

Also, Dak'kon is a multiclass character which means he doesn't do great in anything, levels slowly in any particular class and I like things as they are now because they make him not suck after you've gone through the Circle with him.

In short, my vote is for not reverting. It's good as it is now.
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#5 -Guest-

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 02:48 PM

I am fine with either choice really.

Since a lot of people don't want balance fixes in a patch (understandably) I think it should be an option in the Tweak Pack.

#6 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:01 PM

That's a good idea.
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#7 ghostdog

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:06 PM

You shouldn't remove it completely. It should at least be in the tweak pack. And maybe that's where it belongs most.

#8 Archmage Silver

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:29 PM

I say keep the balance changes you previously made AND add the strength fix.

The way I see it, if you remove the balance changes the whole circle experience ends being pretty much +/- 0. Sure, the added DEX bonus covers 2/3 of the AC penalty, but in my eyes it should be the same AC all the way plus the DEX bonus on top of it.

That said, if you did it like this and moved the component to PS:T Tweaks, I don't see how anyone would have complaints since it'd be now listed as a tweak, not a fix.

Considering the fact that it's probably next to impossible to find out conclusively how the devs originally meant to implement this feature, I'd say making a real fix for it doesn't seem possible. That's why I'd implement it as a tweak.

#9 scient

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 04:10 PM

While I was going through my notes, one tweak I had listed (I forget if it was previously discussed) was to add a few more levels to morale check on Dak's swords. Currently, there are only checks at level 4,7 and 10. So if you say only got his morale up after level 10, you're kind of stuck with whatever weapon his morale was at level 10. I didn't have anything other than a note I made for myself that this could be a potential tweak. As how to implement it (if there is any interest and/or Qwinn wants to) I could see adding in another check at 13/16/19/21/etc. Or to always update blade regardless of level but I think adding in 1-2 more checks would be sufficient.

edit: I'm not proposing to add new weapon upgrades in these later checks (although that is a possibility) just a check that would refresh Dak's weapon to best possible (lvl 10) based on his morale at future level ups.

Edited by scient, 01 January 2010 - 04:13 PM.

Those interested in the classic TBS game Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri / Alien Crossover should check out the unofficial patch I work on here.


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Posted 01 January 2010 - 04:19 PM

Ditto. I think it should end up in the Tweak Pack. IMHO, it's a logical balance tweak, but not really a fix, especially not the part about the Streaming Blade.

Btw, thanks for your reply, Qwinn - it was I who asked that first question in this thread.

#11 -Guest-

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 04:51 PM

scient, I remember reading about that before. Either you or Qwinn brought it up.

I would love to see the strength, blade and morale check fix all together in a Tweak Pack component.


Hehe, all these Guests are confusing. I am the one that wrote #5. One of these days I may just signup to avoid this captcha hell :)

#12 Qwinn

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 06:05 PM

Is this a trend with you currently, to lose confidence in your changes and revert back to the original state? You ended up doing the same thing with the sensory stone in another thread...


I'm afraid I'm drawing a blank. What are you referring to here? I don't recall reverting any changes re: sensory stones, or anything else for that matter...

Looks like everyone wants the blade changes to go into the tweak pack. Fine. You all say that about everything :P I should stop asking! I'm kiddin', I'm kiddin'...

The tweak to Dak'kon's strength, though, I think that would stay with the strength fixes in the Fixpack. What I'm suggesting here is to make Dak'kon's upgrades *not* change as much as the way I envisioned the original strength fix would have.

Base Dak'kon Strength: 17.

Vanilla: Circle: +1 strength, results in 18. Endgame: +1 strength, results in 19.
Tree fixed, no adjustment to boost: Circle: +1 strength, results in 18. Endgame: +1 strength, results in 18/30.
Tree fixed, adjusted boost: Circle: +3 strength, results in 18/60. Endgame: +4 strength, results in 19.

The adjustment I'm suggesting now actually keeps Dak'kon closer to the way he upgrades in the vanilla game than doing the strength fix without adjusting his boost would. With the adjustment, he winds up at 19 in the endgame both ways. The change of the middle state, where he's gone through the circle but before the endgame, lifts him from 18 to 18/60, which I think is in-line with the rest of the changes that try to fit the weirdnesses of PS:T within the framework of 2nd ed. D&D rules. Dak'kon shouldn't be able to be just plain 18 strength. By 2nd ed. rules, he is due a fighter's percentile score. Could make him just have 18/30 instead, so it's as close to the original as possible, but it -is- absolutely a fix IMO that he have some exceptional strength when his base strength is 18. That actually wasn't even *possible* for the engine to handle before the fixes that scient is doing now, for the record. There was no way to upgrade any character along the exceptional strength tree via a dialogue boost - you *had* to skip it entirely. Very probably why it turned out the way it did, rather than as some reflection of designer intent.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 01 January 2010 - 06:08 PM.


#13 Qwinn

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 06:13 PM

All right, upon consideration, I'll give Dak'kon just +2 strength after the circle, and +5 at endgame, so that he's 18/30 after the Circle, and goes to 19 at the endgame. This'll keep him as close to the original progression as possible while still resolving the "Dak'kon doesn't get the percentile score he is due" issue. I picked 18/60 kinda arbitrarily as a middle ground in the strength tree, but I can see how that could bother some people. So, I'll keep it as close to vanilla as I can while resolving the issue.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 01 January 2010 - 06:15 PM.


#14 Daulmakan

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 12:54 AM

The Practical Incarnation only bothered with Dak'kon BECAUSE of his sword. It's an extension of his being, I see no plausible reason as to how he could become more powerful and the blade get weaker.

item_pack.jpg   Drows.jpg

 


#15 Qwinn

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 01:56 AM

The Practical Incarnation only bothered with Dak'kon BECAUSE of his sword. It's an extension of his being, I see no plausible reason as to how he could become more powerful and the blade get weaker.


Hey. I'm with you. That's why I made the changes. People complain that it's a "balance tweak" rather than a fix though. Cause making it so gameplay makes some sort of sense with respect to the game's lore is apparently not really a "fix". *shrug* I frankly would think that if there was *ever* a game where gameplay should be subordinate to the game's lore, and syncing them up -should- count as a "fix", it's this one, but apparently very few agree. What can ya do.

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Edited by Qwinn, 02 January 2010 - 01:57 AM.


#16 Philiposophy

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 05:36 AM

I think you should just have it that the sword doesn't get nerfed. I mean, I know that his sword is basically an extension of Dak'kon, being controlled by his thoughts and all, so it might make sense to split the benefits between Dak'kon and the weapon. But the AC penalty sucks. So yeah.

#17 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 04:52 AM

Is this a trend with you currently, to lose confidence in your changes and revert back to the original state? You ended up doing the same thing with the sensory stone in another thread...


I'm afraid I'm drawing a blank. What are you referring to here? I don't recall reverting any changes re: sensory stones, or anything else for that matter...

http://www.shsforums...post__p__472483
Was just curious if this was an accident or an insecure phase for you ;)
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#18 Qwinn

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 06:30 AM

Oh, right, that. Sorry, forgot. Well, here's the thing... clearly my original edit wasn't great, since -you- came by to complain about it :P :D. The specific bit you picked at was in fact something I had introduced during my dialogue edits, though I don't remember doing it. And looking at it, I came to agree that my edit didn't really improve the sentence and your complaint was valid. So, I agreed to undo that specific edit. The changes others had suggested wasn't anything I had actually implemented before, so it's not a case of insecurity there, heh.

Qwinn

#19 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 06:59 AM

Oh, I didn't quite realize that the botched sentence was yours. I need to read more carefully. :)
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#20 Karnor

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 05:23 AM

The Practical Incarnation only bothered with Dak'kon BECAUSE of his sword. It's an extension of his being, I see no plausible reason as to how he could become more powerful and the blade get weaker.


I'd agree with this.  To quote the Practical Incarnation:

?Can it be that you not know what he carries in his hand? That blade he carries is shaped by his thoughts. Such a tool, when used properly, could slay the multiverse itself??

Very much indicates to me that the sword should get stronger as Dak'kon's morale increases.