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#1 Miloch

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:58 AM

I'm wondering where the BG2 stats for this kit came from. The only official Cavalier kit I can find in 2nd edition is in the Complete Paladin's Handbook, something like this. There was also a Cavalier subclass in 1st edition which was similar. They both dealt a lot with horsemanship, as one might expect (the name means horseman after all).

What a discrepancy though! The canon kit says nothing about a +3 bonus vs. demons and dragons. I suppose maybe the BG2 kit gives them this instead of riding bonuses, as there are no mounts in the game. But do you think it applies (or should apply) just to proper chaotic evil demons (i.e. tanar'ri of the Abyss) or other fiends like lawful evil devils (baatezu) of Hell (Baator)? And for that matter, does the "draconic creature" bonus apply to vaguely dragonlike creatures like wyverns and half-dragons? Seems to me a pretty hefty bonus even if it were just vs. proper demons and dragons, particularly when coupled with immunity to fear, poison, etc.

Edit: Hell vs. Abyss confusion.

Edited by Miloch, 12 December 2009 - 08:03 AM.

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#2 Demivrgvs

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:02 AM

Long time no see Miloch. :devil: ;)

Well, if you ask me (I know you haven't), the way this kit was implemented makes absolutely no sense.

Being unable to implement the actual "horseman" class they mixed a lot of different stereotypes and then added few things that are not tied at all to "knights". Knights in shining armor fighting dragons is a common legend (bonus vs. dragons), and knights are often depicted as honour bound, loyal and fearless warriors (immunity to charm and fear. Cavalier kit is immune to charm too even if it's not documented in your link).

But then why the hell they have 20% fire and acid resistance? Immunity to poison? Bonus vs any type of demon?

Not only half of this kit advantages don't make sense, they don't even come with pratically any disadvantage! At least one for this class would be quite obvious imo: cannot turn undead. Fighting undead creatures is a "paladin thing" not a "knight in shining armor thing".

End of my rant. :D

Edited by Demivrgvs, 13 December 2009 - 04:18 AM.


#3 Lollorian

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:16 AM

Two words - Kit Revision ;)

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#4 leahnkain

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 04:21 PM

In 2nd edition it was a fighters kit. The fighter had to be lawful. I don't like the idea that it must be a lawful good paladin because as mentioned in 1st ed it was a separate class.

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#5 Miloch

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:08 PM

But then why the hell they have 20% fire and acid resistance? Immunity to poison? Bonus vs any type of demon?

Yeah... it does seem a bit overpowered. So did you do anything about it (or do you plan to)? I guess what I was getting at was should a cavalier have a vague bonus toward anything "fiendish" or "draconic" or should it be limited toward actual demons and dragons? I think the latter would be more than enough. I'm not talking about overhauling the kit (though that may be in order) but just enforcing the kit by it's own (ill-defined) rules.

Not only half of this kit advantages don't make sense, they don't even come with pratically any disadvantage!

That is true... disadvantage = no missile weapons? ROFL. Like you would use a guy like this in your back ranks instead of an archer or slinger. No of course not, he'd be one of your main tanks, so that's no disadvantage at all.

In 2nd edition it was a fighters kit. The fighter had to be lawful. I don't like the idea that it must be a lawful good paladin because as mentioned in 1st ed it was a separate class.

I didn't look at the fighters kits but it could well be, there are a lot of 2e kits that way (swashbuckler for example, is both a fighter and thief kit, and they're slightly different). But in 1st ed. they were a separate class sort of like paladins, but had to be "good" IIRC (chaotic, neutral or lawful), a bit like rangers in that sense, only more like paladins in the "knightly" sense. But again, none of that stuff says anything about massive bonuses or resistances that I recall.

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#6 Chevalier

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:26 PM

I would Love a fighter based Cavalier kit!!! :wub: I know that he can't ride horses and the lance is useless. :angry: To make up for the loss of the horse & lance he should be able to fill the sword slots with stars as he levels up.

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#7 Miloch

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:37 AM

To make up for the loss of the horse & lance he should be able to fill the sword slots with stars as he levels up.

Eh, but a vanilla fighter can already do that. In fact, he can get 4 stars in sword (whichever type of sword he wants) at level one :blink:.

So, well, plenty of advantages there for exploitation, but what disadvantages? It is hard to enforce rules like "must get plate mail of even non-magical sort even if banded mail +5 is available" in the game. Not like that's much of a disadvantage either. The given ones like "must cheerfully perform any [good] quest or Bad Things will happen" or "must charge the biggest [baddest] enemy there is" are similarly unenforceable in the engine. Well, sure enough scripts could account for those things, but scripts can be overridden by a PC, and it's definitely not cool to put that sort of thing in the global script baldur.bcs. So really, apart from "no missile weapon allowed" (not a real disadvantage, as I said), what would you see as practical disadvantages?

Edit: And while my queries are directed toward everyone, the actual kit name in the Complete Paladin's Handbook is "Chevalier" mate, so you should be an expert ;).

Edited by Miloch, 13 December 2009 - 03:39 AM.

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#8 Chevalier

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 04:23 AM

Eh, but a vanilla fighter can already do that. In fact, he can get 4 stars in sword (whichever type of sword he wants) at level one :blink:.

Yes, but a Paladin Cavalier can't (only 2). A fighter Cavalier would not get the Paladin's powers. That is one of the things that I don't like about BG's Cavalier. :angry:

So, well, plenty of advantages there for exploitation, but what disadvantages? It is hard to enforce rules like "must get plate mail of even non-magical sort even if banded mail +5 is available" in the game. Not like that's much of a disadvantage either. The given ones like "must cheerfully perform any [good] quest or Bad Things will happen" or "must charge the biggest [baddest] enemy there is" are similarly unenforceable in the engine.

Role-Playing?? :blink: Also a cavalier can be of good, neutral or evil alignment, but only good gets all benefits (like being able to operate with negative HP). With the game engine he would only get D10, not the original Cavalier class's D12. I see the class/kit more a knight of the King, not a Knights Templar or Hospitaller. So he need not do all good things like a Paladin would.

Edit: And while my queries are directed toward everyone, the actual kit name in the Complete Paladin's Handbook is "Chevalier" mate, so you should be an expert ;).

When the Cavalier class first came out (Yes I was already playing AD&D when it first came out) it became my favorite class. My nic come from a Scots-Franco background, not the English Cavalier.

I Ride for the King!


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#9 Demivrgvs

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:03 PM

But then why the hell they have 20% fire and acid resistance? Immunity to poison? Bonus vs any type of demon?

Yeah... it does seem a bit overpowered. So did you do anything about it (or do you plan to)?

Yep, as Lollorian says I'm working on Kit Revisions. :rolleyes:

Long story short, the Cavalier kit imo should be the most fighter-like kit of the Paladin.


So, well, plenty of advantages there for exploitation, but what disadvantages? It is hard to enforce rules like "must get plate mail of even non-magical sort even if banded mail +5 is available" in the game. Not like that's much of a disadvantage either. The given ones like "must cheerfully perform any [good] quest or Bad Things will happen" or "must charge the biggest [baddest] enemy there is" are similarly unenforceable in the engine. Well, sure enough scripts could account for those things, but scripts can be overridden by a PC, and it's definitely not cool to put that sort of thing in the global script baldur.bcs. So really, apart from "no missile weapon allowed" (not a real disadvantage, as I said), what would you see as practical disadvantages?

Well I can think a few possible disadvantages, but the only real ones are:
1) cannot turn undead
2) cannot cast spells

1) this is something suited for a warrior-priest, not a warrior who refuses to fight from distance
2) I'd go for it only if we let the kit get at least mastery (+++) or more in few weapons. Cavaliers should mainly fight with long swords and shields imo, but we may allow more weapons.

Having the kit being unable to use leather/hide armors would be doable and appropriate (for roleplayers like me), but it's clearly not a noticeable disadvantage.

#10 leahnkain

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:08 PM

Here is the 2nd edition fighter kit:

Cavalier
Description: The Cavalier is the ultimate mounted warrior of civilized cultures,
especially those of Middle Ages technology and outlook. In a campaign, he's the
shining knight who leads his fellows on an eternal quest for truth, justice, and the
elimination of evil. To the world at large, he's a mighty hero. To his friends and allies,
he's a staunch friend, a tireless cheerleader, and often an overenthusiastic pain in the
neck.
This is a good Warrior Kit for paladins to take. It can be argued that paladins look
something like this already, but that isn't necessarily so: Only paladins of cultures
resembling medieval Europe would look like this (a paladin of a Japanese-type
culture, a paladin of a Polynesian-like culture, and a paladin of a culture resembling
later Renaissance Europe would all be very different from the Cavalier). Therefore, a
paladin who wants to look every inch the shining knight should take the Cavalier
Warrior Kit.
The Cavalier kit resembles the Noble Warrior kit (q.v.) in that both are noblemen
warriors, but the Noble Warrior is primarily interested in defending the rights and
maintaining the status quo of his social class, while the Cavalier pursues loftier goals.
To be a cavalier, the character must be of any good alignment (chaotic good,
neutral good, lawful good) and have at least the following minimum ability scores:
Strength 15, Dexterity 15, Constitution 15, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10.
Also, the character must belong to the noble social class in the campaign. It's up to
the DM to determine whether this is possible. If his campaign uses a random die-roll
to determine who's nobility and who isn't, then the character must first successfully
roll to be noble in order to be a Cavalier. If it's more of a role-playing exercise in the
campaign, then any character who takes the Cavalier Warrior Kit will be presumed to
be of the nobility. (This doesn't mean that he has a lot of money; it's quite likely that
he belongs to an impoverished noble family, one with a lot of honorable tradition but
no money to speak of.)
Fighters and Paladins may be Cavaliers; Rangers may not. Only humans, elves,
and half-elves may be Cavaliers.
Role: In his own and similar cultures, the Cavalier is a mighty hero who has the
respect of the majority of the population (the criminal classes and evil characters
excepted). He has the good-will of the people (reflected as bonuses to his reaction
rolls), but the people also make many demands of him: When there's danger, when
someone is in trouble, the people turn to the Cavalier for help. This character does not
get much time for rest and relaxation.
Secondary Skills: If you're using the Secondary Skills rules, the Cavalier must
take Groom.
Weapon Proficiencies: Required: Lance (any; player choice) and Sword (any;
player choice). Recommended: All other Lances, all other Swords, all Horsemen's
weapons, Dagger, Spear, Javelin.
Nonweapon Proficiencies: Bonus Proficiencies: Riding, (Land-based, horse),
Etiquette. Recommended: Animal Handling, Animal Training, Dancing, Heraldry,
(Priest, double slots unless Paladin) Musical Instrument, Reading/Writing, (Warrior)
Blind-Fighting, Endurance.
Equipment: The Cavalier must start play with (i.e., spend his initial gold on) at
least two weapons, including one lance and one sword, and must then buy the most
expensive set of armor he can still afford. After those expenditures, whatever remains
of his gold can be spent on items of his choice.
Special Benefits: The Cavalier enjoys many special benefits, including:
At 1st level, he gets a +1 to attack rolls with any lance for which he has
proficiency, when using the lance from horseback. This goes up +1 every six
experience levels (so he'll be +2 at 7th level, +3 at 13th, etc.).
At 3rd level, he gets a +1 to attack rolls with any one type of sword (his choice
from among those he has proficiency with; most common are broad sword, long
sword, bastard sword, and scimitar). This goes up +1 every six experience levels (so
he'll be +2 at 9th level, +3 at 15th, etc.).
At 5th level, he gets a +1 to attack rolls with either horseman's mace, horseman's
flail, or horseman's pick (his choice from among those he has proficiency with). This
goes up +1 every six experience levels (so he'll be +2 at 11th level, +3 at 17th level,
etc.).
These pluses to attack rolls do not add to damage, and don't allow the Cavalier to
hit a monster that can only be hit by magical weapons.
The Cavalier is completely immune to the fear spell. Because he is so brave, he
inspires others to courage, and so, while he is fighting, he actually radiates an emotion
spell in a 10' radius. This emotion spell radiates courage (see the writeup for the 4thlevel
wizard spell emotion), but only to the extent that it negates fear; it does not
bestow the berserk fury that the actual wizard spell provides.
The Cavalier is +4 to save vs. all magic which would affect his mind, such as the
wizard spells charm person, friends, hypnotism, sleep, irritation, ray of enfeeblement,
scare, and geas, and the clerical spells command, charm person or mammal, enthrall,
cloak of bravery, and symbol.
The Cavalier starts play with a horse which he does not have to pay for. This will
be either a heavy war horse, medium war horse, or light war horse (see the Monstrous
Manual Volume One entry on Horses). The player may choose what sort of horse it is,
subject to the DM's approval. It will automatically be a Charger (see the section on
Horse Quality in the Dungeon Master Guide, page 36); the DM may roll for its
personality traits according to those rules. If this horse dies, the Cavalier has to
acquire himself another one through the usual campaign means (buy one, be given
one for noble deeds, etc.), but will not be content with any horse which is not a war
horse of Charger quality.
The Cavalier receives a +3 reaction from anyone of his own culture (except
criminals and characters of evil alignment, from whom he receives a ?3).
And finally, the Cavalier has the right to demand shelter. When he travels, he can
demand shelter from anyone in his own nation who is of status lower than nobility.
And most people of his own status or higher will be happy to offer him shelter when
he is travelling.
Special Hindrances: For all these benefits, the Cavalier has some pretty hefty
hindrances as well.
The Cavalier cannot attack an opponent at range if he can instead charge ahead
and attack him in melee or jousting combat. Therefore, he cannot snipe on enemies
with a bow or crossbow; he cannot use a polearm from behind a shield wall. He has
to be on the front line, meeting his foes face-to-face. (A Cavalier could conceivably
shoot an opponent with an arrow to stop that opponent from killing an innocent
person; that doesn't constitute a violation of his code. But he couldn't shoot the
enemy to protect a friend if his friend is fighting that enemy honorably . . . even if his
friend is losing.)
In any combat, the Cavalier must attack the enemy who is the biggest and most
powerful-looking. If he's held up by lesser troops, he must dispatch them as quickly as
possible and then get to his "real" opponent.
He must always have the highest-quality armor he can afford. As he goes through
his early experience levels, if he has the money, he'll constantly be selling his old
armor and buying the next most protective set of armor. His goal is to have a set of
full plate armor; the next step down from that is field plate, then plate mail, then
bronze plate mail, then banded or splint, then chain, then scale or brigandine, then
ring or studded. And to him, magic bonuses don't mean as much as the type of armor:
He prefers a suit of ordinary field plate to a set of banded mail +5. The DM must
rigorously enforce this limitation on the character if the player is inclined to ignore it.
The Cavalier must also follow the very strict Code of Chivalry. In most AD&D®
game campaigns, his code includes these rules: He must cheerfully perform any noble
service or quest asked of him; he must defend, to the death, any person or item placed
in his charge; he must show courage and enterprise when obeying his rulers; he must
show respect for all peers and equals; he must honor all those above his station (his
social class); he must demand respect and obedience from those below his station; he
must scorn those who are lowly and ignoble (he will not help the ill-mannered, the
coarse, the crude; he will not use equipment which is badly-made or inferior; he will
fight on foot before riding a nag; etc.); he must perform military service to his lord
whenever asked; he must show courtesy to all ladies (if the Cavalier is male); he must
regard war as the flowering of chivalry, and a noble enterprise; he must regard battle
as the test of manhood, and combat as glory; he must achieve personal glory in battle;
he must slay all those who oppose his cause; and he must choose death before
dishonor.
If a Cavalier chooses not to follow this code, bad things happen. The first time he
breaks his vows, the DM will warn the player that the Cavalier feels bad about
violating his code. The second time he breaks his vows, the Cavalier loses all his
special benefits until such time as he repents and undertakes a dangerous task to
redeem himself. When performing this task, he must behave according to his code and
his hindrances. Only when the task is successfully accomplished does he regain his
benefits.
If the Cavalier breaks his vow a third time without repenting and undertaking that
task, he has abandoned his Cavalier Warrior Kit. He permanently loses all the special
benefits of the Kit. He no longer has to obey his knightly code. He receives a
permanent ?3 reaction adjustment from all members of his own culture (even those
who do not know of his past will be put off by the air of treachery and faithlessness
that now haunts the man). His horse, even if it is not the one he began play with,
leaves him?either rides off into the sunset without him, or attacks him. He may never
ride it again, even if he kills it trying to do so. See "Abandoning a Kit" later in this
chapter.
Wealth Options: The Cavalier gets the standard 5d4x10 gp in starting gold.
Races: Of the demihuman races, only elves and half-elves may be Cavaliers.

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#11 leahnkain

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:09 PM

The 1st edition Cavalier is a class and doesn't translate well. (His stats go up every level) I hope the fighter kit from 2nd ed helps. I was thinking of making this kit for Classic Adventures.

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#12 Chevalier

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 11:04 PM

I know that the Cavalier class from 1st ED is over powered. A very close 2nd ED Cavalier kit for BG would be great!

I Ride for the King!


a.k.a. Chev


#13 Miloch

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 10:41 PM

Here is the 2nd edition fighter kit:

I think that is basically the same as the one I linked in the first post on Sorcerers Place. So you're left with having to translate a lot of these bonuses and penalties into game terms. If there are no mounts (I can't see how to implement that in the BG2 engine) then things like lances, horseman's maces etc. do not make sense (well you could make such weapons, but they would probably just fall under the existing spear/halberd or mace proficiencies). As for the disadvantages, the ones Demivrgvs suggested are only good for a paladin kit, so you'd have to find others for a warrior kit. Most of those listed are going to have the problems I mentioned. Not being able to cast spells or turn undead obviously aren't disadvantages for a regular fighter.

I think the existing BG2 paladin kit is ok, but it's a bit vague, which lends itself to being overpowered. Not being able to cast spells is a pretty heavy nerf for a paladin though. Perhaps the kit could have some custom spells and be restricted from a number of default spheres, a bit like Divine Remix or something. On the other hand, the good thing about making a warrior cavalier kit is that you can allow different alignments and races (elves and half-elves) as per the 2e kit description. But that doesn't do much for the disadvantages.

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#14 Tieflingz

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:45 AM

I was thinking of making this kit for Classic Adventures.

Would be awesome if you do and apply it to Althon!

Just no backstab immunity, please, hehe.
I am: Human-Essentric (Halflings/Gnomes/Dwarves/Tieflings are favored)
Fetish: Backstab Ability (That includes Blackguards!)
Alignment: Mainly Any Evil and, to some extent, Chaotic Neutral
Nemesis:
Aasimar (Unless s/he's evil like Belueth the Calm)
Elf (I just don't like those pointy ears)
Paladin (You could guess why)
Weapon of Choice:
Short Sword/Thrown Daggers + Buckler

#15 yarpen

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 05:37 AM

That's why I've decided to remove vanilla kits from game in my Paladins of Faerun Kitpack which tried to properly translate some Kits (and few Prestigue Classes) to BG2 game. So more PnP Cavailer should look like this?

CAVALIER:

Advantages:
- Immunity to fear and morale break.
- Can achieve mastery in two-handed sword, bastard sword, long sword, mace and spear.
- Once per day per 3 levels can use "Charge" ability.
Charge ability grants to him +2 ThaC0, +8 damage bonuses -2 AC penalty, improves his movement speed by 2 and makes his first attack stun enemy for 2 rounds (save vs, wands negates). Charge works for next 10 seconds or until he successfuly hit his enemy.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot use ranged weapons
- Cannot put proficiency points on 2-weapons fighting style
- Cannot turn undead

That's my re-interpretation. Without dragons and demons, but with a bit of simulation of PnP Cavailers Charge. Would need a lot of improvements I know. :) I dunno how it's called in english, but Cavalier is a stereotype of this "Mad Knight" like Don Kichote was. I think that he should be able to select Chaotic Good alignment.

Edited by yarpen, 16 December 2009 - 05:39 AM.


#16 Tieflingz

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 01:40 AM

- Can achieve mastery in two-handed sword, bastard sword, long sword, mace and spear.

I think Halberds should be in the category since they sound very 'knight-ish' (To me) and it's counted as polearm as well. Oh, and my brother's a Great Sword/Halberd Fetish, so yea.. (Dagger, Dart, and Short Sword for me!)

And yes! Don Xiote is awesome! I think there should be no alignment restrictions (But then that'd be against PnP rules.. I think? Not that I'm really into Paladins and stuff... Nasty business they have with the non-vigilants...)
I am: Human-Essentric (Halflings/Gnomes/Dwarves/Tieflings are favored)
Fetish: Backstab Ability (That includes Blackguards!)
Alignment: Mainly Any Evil and, to some extent, Chaotic Neutral
Nemesis:
Aasimar (Unless s/he's evil like Belueth the Calm)
Elf (I just don't like those pointy ears)
Paladin (You could guess why)
Weapon of Choice:
Short Sword/Thrown Daggers + Buckler

#17 Chevalier

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 05:36 AM

I think Halberds should be in the category since they sound very 'knight-ish' (To me) and it's counted as polearm as well. O

No, they are foot soldiers weapons. Cavaliers are mounted fighters.

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#18 leahnkain

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 06:00 AM

I think if I make a cavalier kit for CA, it would be for fighters,not Paladins. The charge ability seems kind of strange without a horse. It is also quite powerful for low levels.

QUOTE(leahnkain @ Dec 14 2009, 03:08 AM) *
Here is the 2nd edition fighter kit:

I think that is basically the same as the one I linked in the first post on Sorcerers Place.


Sorry I never click links, just a habit of mine. It is the same info.

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#19 Lollorian

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 06:18 AM

I think Halberds should be in the category since they sound very 'knight-ish' (To me) and it's counted as polearm as well. O

No, they are foot soldiers weapons. Cavaliers are mounted fighters.

These guys think otherwise :D (#1, #2)

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#20 Chevalier

Chevalier

    Knight of the Realms

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 08:27 AM

They are wrong. I do have some background in historical weapons. First lets talk class (social not D&D), a pole arm is a peasant weapon. Knights would not really want to be seen using one. This does mean the wouldn't or wouldn't know how to, but would not use it as a primary weapon. If you understand how you use a Halberd or Lochaber Axe (which I am more familiar with) you would know that you most likely only kill someone be accident while on horse back with one. They were designed more for footmen to kill horsemen.

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