578 replies to this topic

[DavidWallace]

I'm fairly reluctant to distribute v21 against its author's express request.

I'm rather surprised about that. Where did A64 write he'd not want it redistributed in favor of an older version?

At the top of the "Public test releases" thread, in bold: "Do not put redistributables of this version in your public mod releases!"

Ascension64 distinguishes between releases and test releases. The latest release is Beta 20. The latest test release is beta 21.7.9.

[Salk]

I'm fairly reluctant to distribute v21 against its author's express request.

I'm rather surprised about that. Where did A64 write he'd not want it redistributed in favor of an older version?

At the top of the "Public test releases" thread, in bold: "Do not put redistributables of this version in your public mod releases!"

Ascension64 distinguishes between releases and test releases. The latest release is Beta 20. The latest test release is beta 21.7.9.

I can't of course speak for him but I believe that applied only to the version released on Feb. 2011. Right under he is writing "Instructions for modders using the TobEx_redist package" and version 21 includes the ToBEx_redist package.

[DavidWallace]

I'm fairly reluctant to distribute v21 against its author's express request.

I'm rather surprised about that. Where did A64 write he'd not want it redistributed in favor of an older version?

At the top of the "Public test releases" thread, in bold: "Do not put redistributables of this version in your public mod releases!"

Ascension64 distinguishes between releases and test releases. The latest release is Beta 20. The latest test release is beta 21.7.9.

I can't of course speak for him but I believe that applied only to the version released on Feb. 2011. Right under he is writing "Instructions for modders using the TobEx_redist package" and version 21 includes the ToBEx_redist package.

I think it's reasonably clear that the notices apply to releases on that thread in general. (Note "these versions" in the BWP part of the note.)

[Miloch]

At the top of the "Public test releases" thread, in bold: "Do not put redistributables of this version in your public mod releases!"

Of course, you could just skip putting any version of TobEx in your mod, and instead make it depend on whichever version someone wants to install first.

[Wisp]

depend on whichever version someone wants to install first.

That behaviour already exists with the ToBEx redistributables. If someone installs v21 before SCSII, SCSII will use v21.

Edited by Wisp, 07 October 2011 - 07:22 AM.

[DavidWallace]

depend on whichever version someone wants to install first.

That behaviour already exists with the ToBEx redistributables. If someone installs v21 before SCSII, SCSII will use v21.

Quite so. (How's that for service: your request has been fulfilled before you even made it.)

[Miloch]

depend on whichever version someone wants to install first.

That behaviour already exists with the ToBEx redistributables. If someone installs v21 before SCSII, SCSII will use v21.

Quite so. (How's that for service: your request has been fulfilled before you even made it.)

That's only half of it, as Wisp quoted only half my post. The other half concerns this: not only are you forcing TobEx on folks who may only want SCS without TobEx, but you're doing it usually quite late in the install process, which can in fact cause issues as we've discussed.

But whatever, I don't expect you to address it, since you've already made your view clear. I suppose it's like the age-old rationalism vs. empiricism debate - neither view is really reconcilable to the other.

[Wisp]

which can in fact cause issues as we've discussed.

Give in to the Dark Side and bundle ToBEx with FFT. No more crashes or cumbersome install-order requirements. There is also something to be said for using a standardised solution instead of rolling your own.

Edited by Wisp, 10 October 2011 - 07:26 AM.

[AnonymousHero]

I agree that the MDR issue is unacceptable. I find that I can fix it in v20 by disabling "Damage Fix" from ToBEx core, and "Concentration not broken on zero damage" [or whatever it's actually called] from ToBEx tweaks. So at the moment I'm leaning towards distributing v20 and making those deactivations in the install code - but noting that people who want to run v21 are welcome to. Thoughts welcomed, though.

If the MDR thing is fixable by option tweaking, then I'd say go for it.

Another thing bit me in SCS II v19 (and may thus be worth testing with a new TobEx) was the lack of backstab immunity for barbarians. (The preview fixes this too, JFYI. It may have been fixed in TobEx 20.)

[DavidWallace]

depend on whichever version someone wants to install first.

That behaviour already exists with the ToBEx redistributables. If someone installs v21 before SCSII, SCSII will use v21.

Quite so. (How's that for service: your request has been fulfilled before you even made it.)

That's only half of it, as Wisp quoted only half my post. The other half concerns this: not only are you forcing TobEx on folks who may only want SCS without TobEx

I find this rather peculiar. Any mod forces its contents on someone who installs it. However modular the mod is (and SCS is about as modular as they come), you're always going to end up stuck with the mod author's design preferences.

(Quite apart from the fact that there is an option to disable ToBEx - it's just not visible to the casual user, because the casual user doesn't need to know what ToBEx is, any more than they need to know what WEIDU is.)

, but you're doing it usually quite late in the install process, which can in fact cause issues as we've discussed.

No more so than for any other install-order issue. There's no deep reason why ToBEx installs need to go early in the install order. FFT's preference for going after ToBEx is pretty contingent.

But whatever, I don't expect you to address it, since you've already made your view clear.

Clear, yes; unchangeable, no. There are any number of SCS examples where I've been persuaded by argument to change something. In this case, though, I'm unpersuaded. Feel free to keep trying. (But that means responding to my objections; just restating your view won't help.)

I suppose it's like the age-old rationalism vs. empiricism debate - neither view is really reconcilable to the other.

I think that's a somewhat pessimistic take on philosophical progress, but I think engaging with it will take us a looong way off topic...

I agree that the MDR issue is unacceptable. I find that I can fix it in v20 by disabling "Damage Fix" from ToBEx core, and "Concentration not broken on zero damage" [or whatever it's actually called] from ToBEx tweaks. So at the moment I'm leaning towards distributing v20 and making those deactivations in the install code - but noting that people who want to run v21 are welcome to. Thoughts welcomed, though.

If the MDR thing is fixable by option tweaking, then I'd say go for it.

Another thing bit me in SCS II v19 (and may thus be worth testing with a new TobEx) was the lack of backstab immunity for barbarians. (The preview fixes this too, JFYI. It may have been fixed in TobEx 20.)

Thanks, will chase.

Edited by DavidWallace, 10 October 2011 - 10:35 AM.

[Miloch]

Give in to the Dark Side and bundle ToBEx with FFT. No more crashes or cumbersome install-order requirements. There is also something to be said for using a standardised solution instead of rolling your own.

Well, first of all it's not my mod, but second of all, I'd be opposed to it since it violates my "lean development" "philosophy" we've already hashed out elsewhere, so no need to go through that again, particularly not here. It would be somewhat akin to bundling the Fixpack with a whole bunch of mods, when there's no real reason for that. Either make the mod depend on the Fixpack (or whatever mod it needs) or, preferably, code it such so that isn't absolutely necessary and the player can take advantage of the extra features that TobEx would deliver if they so choose, but needn't have an extra (and let's face it, rather cumbersome) mod foisted on them either by inclusion or by dependence. Also, the code in FFT has a very limited purpose that certainly doesn't require all of TobEx. It was in fact something A64 and I worked out together and it has no issues unless someone installs TobEx after FFT - something we did not anticipate. FFT allows for the possibility of TobEx being installed first (and uses it if so) but not vice-versa (in theory perhaps that's possible, but TobEx is not my mod to maintain either).

Now there could be some reason for this sort of "bundling" but I'm not convinced. Particularly since I've tried it in other contexts and it's proved itself to be a bad idea. For example, Aurora and a handful of other mods do a sort of inclusion of Infinity Animations code for the sole purpose of enabling animation slots that are limited otherwise. This has been the major delaying factor in updating the mods in question since an update to IA would also means updating Aurora, Vecna and whatever other mods do the same thing. It's actually a bit different though, since IA needs to be installed fairly late in the process in order to update any nonstandard mod-added animations. TobEx, on the other hand, is quite comfortable and indeed should be installed early. I'm assuming that's why it goes where it does in the install process now, as A64 originally said it was ok at any point in the install but that has now changed from "anywhere" to "early."

[Ascension64]

Can I upgrade ToBEx without using WeiDU ? I had a BWS install with every interesting mod included, and ToBEx was installed quite early...so it didn't end well when I tried to upgrade it from 14 to 20, right now I have a broken installation because WeiDU tried to uninstall everything first. I hate the idea of reinstalling everything again and playing it from the start (I'm sure that my savegame will have some problems, I can't retrace my steps exactly as it was) which really really sucks. So what should I have done ? I tried to replace .exe, .dll and .ini before running Setup-TobEx.exe but it didn't help at all. Any possible way to upgrade ToBEx without breaking installation ?

(Next time I'll backup everything after installation...damn you WeiDU. I don't even want to play anymore, it's so annoying to replay something you already done. So next time will be a year or so. Still I want to be prepared for that so I'm not making the same mistake twice :-))

It's actually quite difficult to update properly now that the TobEx installation is modular. Essentially, you would copy the new TobEx.dll over, and then you would have to make many changes to your game resources (such as the new lines to ACTION.IDS, etc.) and update your .ini files by looking at what the TobEx installation code does. So, unless you have intuitive knack for code, playing with the existing version that you have installed is probably the best option.

Can someone advise me where we've got to with ToBEx? - should I be shipping v20 with SCS(II) or is v19 still the stablest extant version? And are there things I should be turning off? (I'm aware of the MDR problem.)

Generally, I would say the higher the version the better. The whole point of the test releases is to see if I have broken anything. I mean them for public use - people should use them, that's they I release them. However, the reason why it isn't the 'proper' beta release is because I expect things to break and people to report them. So far, that hasn't quite happened (resulting in 'proper' beta releases having some unexpected issues), perhaps because not too many people are keen on testing, they would rather play and enjoy; or I just haven't given enough time for testing.
@DW: I am happy to coordinate a release with you, since I'm mainly bug-fixing at the moment.

At the top of the "Public test releases" thread, in bold: "Do not put redistributables of this version in your public mod releases!"

Ascension64 distinguishes between releases and test releases. The latest release is Beta 20. The latest test release is beta 21.7.9.

Every release announced in the 'Public test releases' should not be redistributed because they haven't been thoroughly tested. However, given what I said above, it appears any release gets the same amount of testing regardless.

The other half concerns this: not only are you forcing TobEx on folks who may only want SCS without TobEx, but you're doing it usually quite late in the install process, which can in fact cause issues as we've discussed.

I take it part of the issue is with me being MIA and not able to solve the issues. Let's see what we can fix in this regard.

[Ascension64]

TobEx beta 0021 released. Primarily a maintenance release, fixing a slew of bugs. This should be the most stable version to date.

Change log:

-Included French translation (by Isaya)
-Included Italian translation (by ilot)
-Included Simplified and Traditional Chinese translations (by Hindo's Doom)
-Added: Casting Fixes
-Fixed: Crash-to-desktop on startup if installed after Fishing for Trouble (due to clash in externalise race strref component)
-Fixed: Damage hit sounds not playing
-Fixed: EasyTutu displayed no journal entries
-Fixed: Damage opcode set value not working properly (such as in the Harm spell item)
-Fixed: Machine of Lum the Mad dialogue would not work properly
-Fixed: Magic damage resistance was broken
-Removed: Correct Experience Reporting
-Removed: Instantly Set Dialogue Variables
-Disable Experience Boost: Merged with hack that corrects experience reporting in dialogue bar
-Disintegrate Fix: Fixed a bug where IDS targetting was ignored
-Expanded Actions: Added DialogueSetGlobal(), DialogueIncrementGlobal(), DialogueSG()
-Expanded Stats: Fixed loss of character animations on network players on saving multiplayer game
-Expanded Stats: Fixed network communication of new stats
-Externalise Mage Spell Hiding: Fixed a bug where Lightning (SPWI938) was selectable in Sorceror level-up mage spell selection (added SPWI927-949 to HIDESPL.2DA to preserve vanilla behaviour)
-Magic Resistance Mod Fix: Swapped implementation of parameter 2 values 0 and 3 to preserve vanilla behaviour
-Optimise Bag Search Code: (?) Fixed occasional client-side crash when accessing bags or stores
-Poison Fix: Fixed a typo that caused crashes with effect opcode #41 (Sparkle) and prevented this hack from working
-Scrollable Chargen Mage Spell Selection: Fixed intermittent bugs with scroll bars not scrolling when there were spells that could fit onto one page
-Scrollable Level Up Mage Spell Selection: Fixed intermittent bugs with scroll bars not scrolling when there were spells that could fit onto one page
-Strength Mod: Removed all changes to Cumulative Modifier (param1 = 0), correcting issues with equipped items not keeping strength bonus on loading a game, and issues with strength incrementation with items such as the Manual of Gainful Exercise, Evil Tear of Bhaal, and Blackrazor
-Strength Mod: Strength Spell (param1 = 3) now increments Strength through 18/XX based on differences detected in STRMODEX.2DA
-Subtitles For Standard Soundsets: Fixed a typo in the FEMALE3 soundset subtitles
-Use Caster Level On Mirror Image: Fixed a typo that prevented this hack from working

[Miloch]

Change log:
...

Your productivity amazes me .

[Ascension64]

Change log:
...

Your productivity amazes me .

Thanks, but you should see my TobEx todo list that is more than 100 items long!

[Shaitan]

Great! Thanks

[Andrea C.]

you should see my TobEx todo list that is more than 100 items long!

But we are all 100% grateful for your great work!!!

Edited by Andrea C., 08 November 2011 - 01:03 AM.

[DrAzTiK]

Thank you for take care of this wonderfull game Ascension

[DavidWallace]

That's good timing. I'm just coming back to wrapping up the latest SCSII release. Many thanks.

[Ascension64]

TobEx beta 0022 released. This version should be more stable than the previous, updates some translations, removes the need for detoured.dll, and sports one new hack for modders.

Also, TobEx is now on github. You can find the project at https://github.com/Ascension64/TobEx.

-Assertion updates
-Class/structure updates
-Upgraded to use the Detours Express 3.0 library, removing need for detoured.dll
-Added: Externalise Mage Spells Cap
-Updated: Italian translation (by Salk)
-Updated: Simplified and Traditional Chinese translations (by Hindo's Doom)
-Blindness As Spell Description: Fixed a typo that prevented this hack from working
-Blindness As Spell Description: Should now overwrite the Blindness Fix hack as intended
-Contingency Detects Select Spell: Fixed memorised spells in lowercase not displaying correctly
-Disease Fix: Fixed a bug where a creature slowed on death remained alive and untargettable
-Kit Trigger Fix: Fixed breaking of vanilla behaviour when Kit(*, 0) was specifically used to detect Barbarian and Wild Mage kits
-Log Assertion Failures: Missing spell icons for spells in the spell selection screen correctly display an assertion failure
-Log Missing Resources: Fixed an issue that prevented this hack from working
-Optimise Bag Search Code: (?) Hopefully now fixed occasional client-side crash when accessing bags or stores
-Poison Fix: Fixed a bug where a creature poisoned on death remained alive and untargettable