20 replies to this topic

[yarpen]

NPC REVISION MOD for BG2: SoA
Version: 0.1 first alpha pre-release
Author: Yarpen, Mike1072 (a lot of coding help)

ATTENTION: This project isn't connected with Demivrgvs's and Mike1072 great mod Item Revision Mod or Demivrqv's alone project Spell Revision (or even Kit Revision). Mod name "NPC REVISION" is temporairly, I'm looking for suggestions for good name at forum.

ATTENTION2: This readme sucks. Really. Currently I'm not capable to write anything better.

DESCRIPTION: This mod aims to improve and enhance important mechanical part of Baldur's Gate 2 - our companions. In this little package you can find some true revisions (Revised NPC attributes), some wall-breaking stuff (NPCs starts at different levels {so no more Anomen-squire who thanks to his dualclass have 2x more levels than Keldorn, who's veteran] but also minor components as changing few NPC's classes (now there is only Imoen class change, but soon I will add Anomen's and Valygar's one) or at last minor rule tweaks which grants some very minor bonuses to characters with average ability scores (13-14).

INSTALLATION AND COMPATIBILITY: Unpack .rar file in your BG2 installation directory. Take weidu.exe file and rename it into setup-npc_rev_beta, then launch it and install everything what do you want.

COMPONENTS (grouped in: Core, Reccomended and Additional Components)

Core:
1. NPC Attributes Revision for BG2: SoA
This component fixes most of BG2 NPCs ability scores to more sensible ones. Many of them in my humble opinion weren't appropriate. I'll have to write improved version of tabel with original and fixed attributes with my comments about it. After installing this component you will feel the difference between young (great attributes, low xp, better xp factory) Anomen and old veteran Keldorn (low physical attributes, starts with greater amount of xp, but his progress isn't so fast). Minimum overall ability score is owned by Jan Jansen (68). highest by Anomen (86).

More info's you can find out reading NPC attributes table available at Documentation folder.

2. NPC starts at different levels of experience for BG2: SoA
Second component is trying to fix one of biggest bug in BG2 NPC system. Bioware made all NPCs available at level close to PC's one, which creates a bit of absurdal situations like Keldorn-Anomen. Or fact, that girl who's at her first time in "big world" is at the same level as you, the Hero of Baldur's Gate. This component changes some of the NPCs starting level.

It also introduces something what I call "XP factor". Some of NPCs (especially these at lower levels) can be stated as "people with potential". Why? Because they're young and inteligent: Anomen (inteligent, ehrm), Aerie, Imoen, Nalia. They start at level equal or lower than this of PC, but when you take one of these to your group, you can be sure that in the outcome they will have higher level than the rest. Values are around +5% to +15%.

But also there are NPCs who doesn't have a lot of room for new experiences. They can be veterans (as Keldorn or Cernd, in his very own way) or they can be a bit retarded - as Minsc. They get only penalties. But the old ones (Cernd & Keldorn) are starting game with better amount of XP. That's the whole philosophy here.

Reccomended:
1. Arcane Rogue kit for Imoen
This component introduces new kit for Imoen and changes her class into Thief (instead of dualclass Thief-Mage). Arcane Rogue can cast few Illusion spells and be quite a good thief, so I think that this tweak will give you a chance of having non-protagonist, single-class thief in your team. Also it removes idiotic 7 wizard levels of Imoen, was she learning when Irenicus was torturing her? Damn.

Here's kit description.

ARCANE ROGUE: Combining the skills of a rogue with minor magical powers, the arcane rogue is a potent scout and decoy. The arcane rogue focuses less time on manual skills training than his or her fellow rogues.

Advantages:
- +10% to Detect Illusions
- At 2nd level once per day can cast Blindness
- At 6th level once per day can cast Invisibility
- At 9th level once per day can cast Non-detection.
- At 11th level once per day can cast Dimension door.
- At 15th level once per day can cast Invisible Stalker.
- Gain access to additional HLA's: Mislead and Mass Invisibility.

Wady:
- -10% penalty to thieving skills (with exeption of Detect Invisibility).
- Cannot dualclass.

Additional:
1. Average attributes score gives some bonuses
This component is only additional, but for having some more fun from gameplay with NPC Attributes Revision I reccomend you to install it.
This little component changes Strenght, Dexterity and Constitution rule tables to start giving some profits (as Damage Rolls or Armor Class bonuses) not when value is higher than 15, but 13 or 12 instead of.

Okay, that's all.

Attached Files

•  BG2_NPC_Revision.rar   24.27K   570 downloads

[dreamer2007]

Wow great idea . I hope that you are aware of the existence of the Big World Project. It would be awesome if you could somehow make some components to be compatible with it, and also you could get some ideas on how to expand your mod from all the mods that are installed there, for example Level 1 NPC's. Congrats on the release!

Edited by dreamer2007, 04 December 2009 - 08:52 AM.

[yarpen]

It would be awesome if you could somehow make some components to be compatible with it,

Whole mod is written to use only .cre files patching so I think that if BGT & rest of BWP mods aren't changing filenames, they should be compatible. I'm not sure about that what happens when lvl1NPCs is changing item type (when you're turning Anomen into Monk, his shield is changed into cloak) but everything should be ok.

[yarpen]

Damn, I'm not sure about making Mike one of the authors of this mod. He helped me with some code, but I don't think he wants to be connected with such a sucky mod/readme

[Mike1072]

Hehe. I was as surprised as anyone to see I'd written a new mod. Readme shout-outs are fine with me, but the authorship title belongs to you, so go ahead and take it.

Congrats on the release, by the way.

[Arkenor]

Interesting idea.

Picking an NPC at random, I see you change Nalia's stats from:

Str 14
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 17
Wis 9
Cha 13

To:

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 9
Int 14
Wis 11
Cha 15

That's a pretty huge change, with major implications for her survivability and usefulness, and spell learning. The thing that most stuck out about her now to me though is that with those stats she couldn't have dual-classed.

[Lollorian]

A net change of -12?? I'd really love to hear rhe reason for a nerf like that (if the mod's additional component isn't installed, these stats are ... pretty bad for a mage/thief ) ... ok, maybe it seems logical from a roleplaying point of view, in which case it reinforces my view that Nalia sucks

I like the XP factor and the additional component, but kinda have the feeling that it's gonna need the core component to be installed

Cheers,
Lol

Edited by Lollorian, 05 December 2009 - 04:44 AM.

[yarpen]

So:
Str 10 - as a sort of noble she never had to use any muscles, this 14 was quite stupid.
Dex 16 - she's quite agile, thanks to dance lessons and sneaky adventures in slums. But she isn't professional scout or master-thief, so?
Con 9 - being noble sucks. maybe I should raise it a bit
Int 14 - she doesn't seem to get that her revolutionary ideas are an epic fail from their base. She can be pretty smart, still, petty.
Wis 11 - raised a bit, because of being kind-hearted
Cha 15 - hum hum hum

Stats are usually lowered. Main protagonist should be natural leader, and as player you have advantage to create these template-ideal warriors (STR/DEX/CON at 18) wizards or rogues. But NPCs shouldn't get this privelage. They should have their hindrances, should be imperfect. And not everyone should be an absolute master of his profession. I was using this article:
http://wiki.spellhol.../Ability_Scores

Psst, don't mention Keldorn's 14 Strenght ;]

[Jarno Mikkola]

Dex 16 - she's quite agile, thanks to dance lessons and sneaky adventures in slums. But she isn't professional scout or master-thief, so?
...
Int 14 - she doesn't seem to get that her revolutionary ideas are an epic fail from their base. She can be pretty smart, still, petty.

HOW THE HELL WAS SHE ABLE TO DUAL-class?

[Arkenor]

So:
Str 10 - as a sort of noble she never had to use any muscles, this 14 was quite stupid.
Dex 16 - she's quite agile, thanks to dance lessons and sneaky adventures in slums. But she isn't professional scout or master-thief, so?
Con 9 - being noble sucks. maybe I should raise it a bit
Int 14 - she doesn't seem to get that her revolutionary ideas are an epic fail from their base. She can be pretty smart, still, petty.
Wis 11 - raised a bit, because of being kind-hearted
Cha 15 - hum hum hum

Stats are usually lowered. Main protagonist should be natural leader, and as player you have advantage to create these template-ideal warriors (STR/DEX/CON at 18) wizards or rogues. But NPCs shouldn't get this privelage. They should have their hindrances, should be imperfect. And not everyone should be an absolute master of his profession. I was using this article:
http://wiki.spellhol.../Ability_Scores

Psst, don't mention Keldorn's 14 Strenght ;]

Ahh well. You must, of course, stay true to your creative vision.

Myself, I tend to agree with Minsc :

"Ahh... We are all heroes; you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!"

[Demivrgvs]

Wow, you know that I made something like this ages ago? I never thought about making it a mod because I feared no one would be ever interested in having a low level Aerie/Nalia.

I'm all for it, and if you need a lot of feedback count me in!

One thing though, I don't like too much the 'xp factory' feature because I don't want to see Anomen becoming more experienced than Keldorn, it doesn't make sense to me.

P.S I made Imoen a mage/thief (multiclass) and called her Arcane Trickster.

[yarpen]

HOW THE HELL WAS SHE ABLE TO DUAL-class?

Her father was rich, so he probably paid for that. Just like in Anomen's case

Here's upcoming tasks list:
- mod's non-revision name
- finding some hosting and having real forum for discussion
- revising my revised attributes for NPCs
- making XP factor an optional thing for people who wants "NPCs starts at different levels"
- new components: Valygar as Wizard Slayer (Ranger or Fighter); Anomen as Paladin/Cavailer; Cernd as Druid; alternative way of restricting NPCs personal items to them only (I've slightly refined it in core component but still there's less-cheatable solution); refined NPC personal items;

Also I've had idea of alternative joining dialogue for Anomen which explains why he's in the tavern... man, I'd love to completly rewrite this character, give him personal problems which makes him go into alcohol, mentioning his problem with father and with Order. He's such an intriguing character, but so undeveloped.

P.S I made Imoen a mage/thief (multiclass) and called her Arcane Trickster.

I'd love to, but without Mage's Hand ability it's for nothing. Is there a possibility to create semi-invisible creature with half of Imoen's thieving skills? Damn, it's possible because she isn't developing them anymore) and bonuses from items don't apply on Mage's Hand. Cool!

Edited by yarpen, 05 December 2009 - 07:29 AM.

[Demivrgvs]

Just a few Thoughts:

Imoen
If it wasn't for BG1 I'd suggest a multiclass mage/thief (renamed Arcane Trickster), but in BG1 (and even more with BG1 NPC project) it is quite clear Imoen has to be a thief that eventually dual to mage (there's even a quest about that if I'm not wrong).

Minsc
He is a rasheemar, and thus he should be either a Barbiaran (I always use him as such) or a Berserker. Furthermore, with his stats he shouldn't be able to cast ranger spells even if he remains such (at least in PnP he wouldn't). He does have few lines were he calls himself a ranger, thus both solutions aren't perfect imo.

Jaheira
Powerplayers usually make her a cleric/ranger, but please don't do that, lore-wise she is a fighter/DRUID and that's pretty clear.

Yoshimo
His class is perfect, I think he should be a quite experienced character.

Aerie
Well, lore-wise she should be very low in level. Her class is perfect.

Anomen
He is a warrior-priest, thus a fighter-cleric, and his banters make that quite clear. Assigning him the Cleric of Helm kit is "sensible", though it's against the rules.

Nalia
I never found a way to make her not a poor version of imoen, except when I used Imoen as a multi M/T. She doesn't seem a "backstabber" at all, that's why in my last game I made her a Swashbuckler-Mage. In theory she should be pretty low in level too, something like Swashbuckler 5 - Mage 6.

Valygar
Both background and his banters suggest two classes: Stalker or Wizard Slayer. He should be rather experienced imo.

Cernd
Unless NPC IEP does something about it his current class MAKES NO SENSE. Both Avenger and Totemic Druid would be much more appropriate imo. He should be hugely experienced druid, and Jaheira remind this in all their banters.

Keldorn
The class is perfect, and together with Cernd he should be the most experienced NPC imo.

Mazzy
Well, she clearly is wannabe paladin, but she can't be one. I really don't know, her current class is probably the more appropriate unless you introduce new kits.

Jan
A not too experienced Thief/Illusionist.

Haer'Dalis
A rather experienced Blade with no doubts.

Viconia
I think true cleric fits her the most, though multiclass fighter/cleric or cleri/thief make sense. I'll personally make her a kitted Shadowcloak of Shar.

Edwin
The only reason for him being a Conjurer is that such kit is by far the most powerful one for mages. Within IR v3 his amulet will "rename" his class 'Red Wizard' without actually touching the class (the amulet abilities will do something about it).

Korgan
An experienced Berseker with no doubts.

[yarpen]

Imoen
Current solution isn't the best, I don't like introducing new kits for NPCs (NPC Kitpack is for that) but still... game developers intended to do Imoen as she's done. Yes, she's quite overpowered in Irenicus Chateu, but when you meet her in Spellhold, she should have 7/X level (which gives usually 7+8=15 or levels around that) so it'd be "quite balanced". Still, with thief at level 7th, and wizard at level 9th at this game's stage you'll have a lot of problems. I don't like fact that Imoen gained 7 wizard's levels. I'm thinking about much alternative solution:
Imoen becomes Swashbuckler, but she gains her special item (which currently will make sure that she's alive) - ragged, old spellbok (maybe Tarnesh's one? from BG1 NPC project?) which allows her to cast few spells per day. This will allow to make her quite sensible NPC and will not ruin cut-scene where she has to cast Magic Missle. (My current Arcane Rogue kit didn't touched this matter).

Cernd
Avenger? As stupid as Werewolf. Both are quite an absurd for him. I even don't like thought about Cernd as Totemic Druid, I know he looks like shaman but still, he isn't mentioning anything about spirits and ghosts. That's why I think that kitless Druid is just perfect for this guy. Mhm, I'm afraid that it'll make his fight against Faldorn a bit more difficult (and also my opinion is, that Bioware granted him his kit ONLY because of this goddamn cirlcle) but I think I can handle it.

Edwin
I'd love to see him as true Red Wizard who can select TWO specialities instead of one. Conjuration and Necromancy? Or maybe Conjuration and Enchanting? Still, it'd be awesome.

NPCs experience level
You know, I didn't lowered anyone's level but I've edited 2DA table which determines at which level in comparison to protagonist NPC is. Young characters such as Nalia, Anomen or Aerie for long time are at their lowest incarnation so it's preffered to take them as fast as you can (and it's not troublesome). The oldest NPCs like Keldorn and Cernd are usually at higher levels (even 12th when you're 7th) so you can feel that they're veterans not some random happy-go-luck adventurers. You can always check the table in mod's folder and see, that we're probably agreeing in most of cases.

[Demivrgvs]

Imoen

Current solution isn't the best, I don't like introducing new kits for NPCs (NPC Kitpack is for that) but still... game developers intended to do Imoen as she's done. Yes, she's quite overpowered in Irenicus Chateu, but when you meet her in Spellhold, she should have 7/X level (which gives usually 7+8=15 or levels around that) so it'd be "quite balanced". Still, with thief at level 7th, and wizard at level 9th at this game's stage you'll have a lot of problems. I don't like fact that Imoen gained 7 wizard's levels. I'm thinking about much alternative solution:
Imoen becomes Swashbuckler, but she gains her special item (which currently will make sure that she's alive) - ragged, old spellbok (maybe Tarnesh's one? from BG1 NPC project?) which allows her to cast few spells per day. This will allow to make her quite sensible NPC and will not ruin cut-scene where she has to cast Magic Missle. (My current Arcane Rogue kit didn't touched this matter).

Well, in my last game Imoen is a plain Swashbuckler and I justify the cutscene with the Wand of Missiles because IR allows thieves to use wands, but bringing such spellbook to BG2 would be even better.

Speaking of her being a thief 7 - mage 8 in Chateau Irenicus it actually isn't too overpowered because it requires 131000xp, and by the end og BG1 you could have 161000xp.

Again, I don't know enough of NPC IEP banters (I'm trying it out only on my current run) but at least her ToB ending storyline gives for granted that she has "formidable skill in magic". Last but not least I suppose the fact alone she is taken to Spellhold would suggest she needs mage levels. I'd love to have Imoen as a pure Swashbuckler but I think Swashmage is the best solution due to the above mentioned things.

And what about Nalia? Is there a way to make her more unique if Imoen has to remain a dual mage-thief?

Cernd

Avenger? As stupid as Werewolf. Both are quite an absurd for him. I even don't like thought about Cernd as Totemic Druid, I know he looks like shaman but still, he isn't mentioning anything about spirits and ghosts. That's why I think that kitless Druid is just perfect for this guy. Mhm, I'm afraid that it'll make his fight against Faldorn a bit more difficult (and also my opinion is, that Bioware granted him his kit ONLY because of this goddamn cirlcle) but I think I can handle it.

Does he need to mention ghosts te be a Totemnic Druid? And what should he mention to be an Avenger? It doesn't seem to me that Keldorn mentions anything about being an Inquisitor, Haer'Dalis being a Blade or Jan being an Illusionist...the classes just fit the personalities and doesn't go against any banter. Cernd being a Shapeshifter is stupid because one thing is not mentioning anything about being able to cast few wizard-like spells as a druid, an entirely different thing is being affected by lycantropy and not telling a word about it! How can the party not mention anything about something like that?!

Anyway, you can't go wrong with a plain Druid, but most players won't like it imo.

Edwin

I'd love to see him as true Red Wizard who can select TWO specialities instead of one. Conjuration and Necromancy? Or maybe Conjuration and Enchanting? Still, it'd be awesome.

Actually Red Wizards don't have two specialties, they have an uber-specialization into a single school.

NPCs experience level

You know, I didn't lowered anyone's level but I've edited 2DA table which determines at which level in comparison to protagonist NPC is. Young characters such as Nalia, Anomen or Aerie for long time are at their lowest incarnation so it's preffered to take them as fast as you can (and it's not troublesome). The oldest NPCs like Keldorn and Cernd are usually at higher levels (even 12th when you're 7th) so you can feel that they're veterans not some random happy-go-luck adventurers. You can always check the table in mod's folder and see, that we're probably agreeing in most of cases.

I did the same, but in my install each NPC always use the same .cre file.

[yarpen]

Actually Red Wizards don't have two specialties, they have an uber-specialization into a single school.

O RLY? Damn, that's not the same as elven Dualist. But it's still unimplementable because one of main advantages of being specialist is having +2 to Saving Throws against spells from selected school and -2 against opposite school. So in BG2 Edwin 'd get only additional prohibited school. Arcane Remixes introduced few interesting Red Wizard spells which makes Edwin a bit of Darth Vader (Force Suffocation!).

Speaking of her being a thief 7 - mage 8 in Chateau Irenicus it actually isn't too overpowered because it requires 131000xp, and by the end og BG1 you could have 161000xp.

Mhm. I've got new idea. What about making everyone's (from old PC band) starting with 161000XP (so it's 10th level as I think) instead of 7th? This will allow to make some NPCs as Aerie, Anomen, Nalia starting at lower level than PC and also it makes Imoen quite legall. But I think it'll make game a lot easier. Still, my characters in SCS2 have really lack of power, protagonist asassin (RR's revised version) especially. These 2-3 levels would be welcome. What do you think?

And what about Nalia? Is there a way to make her more unique if Imoen has to remain a dual mage-thief?

Even if Imoen could be a multi-class (when we're negating idiotic IMO rule that humans cannot mutliclass; it doesn't make any sense to me, their lifespawns are much shorter so they are masters when it's about combining skills), Nalia's dualclass is most appropriate. It's hard to make her single-class thief or wizard, because both of classes are required. Single-class wizard can cast Invisibility, Non-detection and Knock, so she has a possibility to escape from Keep. But without thief class she's not this "charming Robin Hood" anymore.

Does he need to mention ghosts te be a Totemnic Druid? And what should he mention to be an Avenger? It doesn't seem to me that Keldorn mentions anything about being an Inquisitor, Haer'Dalis being a Blade or Jan being an Illusionist...the classes just fit the personalities and doesn't go against any banter. Cernd being a Shapeshifter is stupid because one thing is not mentioning anything about being able to cast few wizard-like spells as a druid, an entirely different thing is being affected by lycantropy and not telling a word about it! How can the party not mention anything about something like that?!

As kits fanatic: kits represent more specific character's profession and they should be something more than just a collection of additional abilities. It's sad that you're not known as Wizard Slayer (these goddamn magelings shouldn't like you anymore) or Berserker ("mom, why this guy is howling?").
Keldorn is retired paladin who's currently working as city's Inquisitor. There are some good banters between him and Kelsey, but that's mod content. Blade fits to Haer'Dalis, Blade depends not truely on his skills but that how his enemies consider them. I don't like BG2's implementation of Offensive Stance (in PnP it was working near to Spook spell). But Avenger's revised Blade has beautiful Weapon Display ability.
Avengers are somewhat an non-canonic, stupid group of druids which are fighting against unnatural beings by... changing form into these unnatural beings! And having few wizard's spells. Cool. PnP Avenger's were melee-fighting oriented druids. Cernd doesn't fit.
Totemic Druid is closer to spiritual world than anyone else. Of course kit is far better than vanilla Druid (who's using shapeshifting?!), and can be an option. I don't like it but I'll have to include this one probably.

I did the same, but in my install each NPC always use the same .cre file.

If idea of increased amount of XP at start of SoA will be accepted by player's, I'll seriously think about this one.

Demi, one thing. I need mod's alternative name because I think you don't want to be connected (as Mike was) with this mod

EDIT:
New component: Alternative way of restricting using of NPCs personal items
As most of you know, vanilla in-game personal item restrictions are, sorry for bad word, bullshit. Item is checking if character has exactly the same class/race and few attributes as NPC; if yes, that's probably Anomen. It don't need to be Anomen. It can be PC, Fighter/Cleric, Lawful Neutral who beats Anomen's attributes. And he also can use Delryn's family shield which is a bit stupid. Core component of SoA NPC Revision tweaked these requirements (requirements were equal to all of NPC's attributes with exception of Strenght [standard item requirement] and Intelligence [often drained by Ithillids]) but I think that's not enough. My system can be a bit immersion breaking, but if it'll be applied to all of the items, many players are going to like it.

It's all about special, magic retribution for characters who are trying to use someone's equipment. Yoshimo's katana as it's stated in description has a bit of it's own free will so it'll just kill you by ripping off your guts. Keldorn's Sword will start to burn your skin with holy radiance. Armor will not allow you to move. Current list of effects (which will be applied on anyone with exception of original's wielders):
Yoshimo's Katana: HARAKIRI!
Keldorn's Sword: it makes you immediatly drop weapon and suffer 10 magic damage
Keldorn's Armour: immobilised
Valygar's Katana: every successful blow makes it slice also you, which deals 1d10 slashing damage
Jansen's Crossbow: explodes in your face? 2d6 of fire damage everytime it shots?
Anomen's Shield: sets your Strenght on 5
Haer'Dalis's swords don't need restriction - they are already unavailable because you cannot be Tiefling.

What do you think about this idea?

Edited by yarpen, 05 December 2009 - 03:44 PM.

[Demivrgvs]

Actually Red Wizards don't have two specialties, they have an uber-specialization into a single school.

O RLY? Damn, that's not the same as elven Dualist. But it's still unimplementable because one of main advantages of being specialist is having +2 to Saving Throws against spells from selected school and -2 against opposite school. So in BG2 Edwin 'd get only additional prohibited school. Arcane Remixes introduced few interesting Red Wizard spells which makes Edwin a bit of Darth Vader (Force Suffocation!).

Well, I'm not too much into new kits, that's why I'd simply change the name displayed into Red Wizard without adding a new kit. A new prohibited school would actually be a decent trade-off consider he gets +3 spells per level compared to a non kitted mage (but many players would hate you for something like that).

Speaking of her being a thief 7 - mage 8 in Chateau Irenicus it actually isn't too overpowered because it requires 131000xp, and by the end og BG1 you could have 161000xp.

Mhm. I've got new idea. What about making everyone's (from old PC band) starting with 161000XP (so it's 10th level as I think) instead of 7th? This will allow to make some NPCs as Aerie, Anomen, Nalia starting at lower level than PC and also it makes Imoen quite legall. But I think it'll make game a lot easier. Still, my characters in SCS2 have really lack of power, protagonist asassin (RR's revised version) especially. These 2-3 levels would be welcome. What do you think?

Eh eh, don't tell anybody but I already do that. If you're following my reports for SCSII at G3 Jaheira started as a Fighter 7/Druid 7, and Minsc as a Barbarian 8. It won't make a huge difference for warriors, but for rogues and spellcasters the boost is rather more noticeable. The game won't be much more easy at all imo, but I always play with SCS. A 60000xp boost within SoA are quite easy to get and start to matter nothing quite soon, they only help in the very first few quests before the party start to be decently equipped.

And what about Nalia? Is there a way to make her more unique if Imoen has to remain a dual mage-thief?

Even if Imoen could be a multi-class (when we're negating idiotic IMO rule that humans cannot mutliclass; it doesn't make any sense to me, their lifespawns are much shorter so they are masters when it's about combining skills), Nalia's dualclass is most appropriate. It's hard to make her single-class thief or wizard, because both of classes are required. Single-class wizard can cast Invisibility, Non-detection and Knock, so she has a possibility to escape from Keep. But without thief class she's not this "charming Robin Hood" anymore.

Yeah, if you ask me nothing can fit Nalia more than a swashbuckler dualled to mage after few levels. That's why I'd prefer to change Imoen.

Regarding humans being unable to multiclass I obviously agree with you. Actually I think dualclassing makes sense only if the starting class has very few levels, else he should be a multi. But I admit I generally don't like the dual-class system at all.

Going back to Imoen, she's a Swashbuckler, I have no doubts about it. Everything about her points to such kit imo. Then she's so intelligent that she can learn to use wands, scribe and read some scrolls, and so on, but that's something she can do with IR and Refinements (IR's wands cast "real" spells, that's why I use the Wand of Missiles to justify her being taken to Spellhold ).

If your mod is BG2 only than a multi thief/mage can be quite interesting, but BG1 players may find it even more strange because in BG1 she's a single class thief for sure. Developers made it so that both Imoen and Nalia do appear as partial thief partial mage, with the latter clearly geared toward being an almost pure mage, and the former being much more a rougue type.

Demi, one thing. I need mod's alternative name because I think you don't want to be connected (as Mike was) with this mod

Does it seems to you I'm good at finding good names for mods?

Edited by Demivrgvs, 06 December 2009 - 05:19 AM.

[Johnson]

I really like the idea of this mod but a couple things off the top of my head. Keldorn has 13 wisdom, the same as Anomen. That just seems plain wrong, at the least I think it should be his vanilla score. Nalia has 15 charisma which I'm sure was just added as filler since I've never liked her. 11-12 seems appropriate. Edwin is a frail spellcaster, he should have 9 strength, 11-12 dexterity (I always found it weird that his DEX was so low seeing as how it accounts for hand-eye coordination which I'm sure is important for spellcasting).

Lastly, most NPC's can no longer use their personal weapons and armor(Keldorn, Valygar, Cernd).

[mos_anted]

IMO, you are nerfing the NPC's too much, to the point of making several of them almost unusable (Jan with 13 DEX? Keldorn with 14 STR?), especially with the way 2e AD&D handles stats and stat modifiers. BG2 NPC's, unlike several BG1 NPC's are pretty balanced for the kind of game that SoA/ToB is, and I don't think they warrant any "fixes" much less nerfs. Where we discussing a PnP campaign, I might be inclined to agree with you, but that is not the case. You also seem to be making wrong assumptions regarding dual-classing and attributes. AD&D dual classing is not the same as 3e multi classing; you should not add both classes' levels to determine who is more experienced (ie Imoens starting levels (thief>mage 7/8 ) don't mean she's level 15), you should compare XP totals instead. As for attributes, you seem to assume that training determines/modifies your attributes. That is not so. Attributes refer to your "default" or natural abilities. A high DEX, for example, does not mean he/she is a trained athlete or dancer, just that the char is naturally nimble/good hand-eye coordination etc. I'll take as an example Nalia's stats:
STR - 14 just means her strength is a bit above average, and if you want to argue physical fitness, remember she regularly sneaks out of the keep, so she does get some physical activity.
DEX - 18 you don't have to be a master scout ot have a 18 DEX, just means she's naturally nimble/agile
CON - 16 being noble has nothing to do regarding CON, it just means she's a rather healthy individual.
INT - 17 she is pretty intelligent, enough to be an effective wizard. The fact that she's rather naive has more to do with WIS than INT.
WIS - 9 She's naive and a bit clueless, WIS doesn't have anything to do with her being kind-hearted; that would be something relating to her Alignment.
CHA - 13 Tiny bit above average here, perhap's she's "cute" or in general has a nice personality, doesn't seem to have the strength of personality/personal magnetism to have higher CHA.

The fact that Anomen is an anomaly regarding dual-classing rules doesn not mean other NPC's should also blatantly ignore them (while I too agree 2e's dual/multi classing rules are idiotic, I don't think it's the topic of the discussion, and I think a lot of players are ok using (and abusing) the existing rules as is).
In the case of Imoen, I believe that the developers intended since the beginning for her to dual to mage otherwise why give her a 17 INT? My take is that for BG2 , they made what a lot of players did canon and kept her as a dualled thief>mage (though I personally dual her at lvl 6). That does not mean she learned wizardy while being Irenicus' prisoner, rather that she dualed sometime during her adventures in the Sword Coast, and was already a mage when she was captured.

[GeN1e]

I'd love to, but without Mage's Hand ability it's for nothing. Is there a possibility to create semi-invisible creature with half of Imoen's thieving skills? Damn, it's possible because she isn't developing them anymore) and bonuses from items don't apply on Mage's Hand. Cool!

Altered Knock Spell