46 replies to this topic

[berelinde]

(Berelinde, short question, weren't you making mod known as Alternatives?)

Still am. The paladin route is done and tested. The assassin's route is about half done.

[Miloch]

I wouldn't mind coming up with some way to not kill the vampires, either, but can't think of a convincing method or reason for doing so (at least, not without creating a much, much more involved mod than I want to for my first try). So I am passing undead off as "dead already" for at least the first version of this mod.

Really, you can't "kill" undead because they're already dead. What you can do is release them from their curse - at least in the case of lesser undead like skeletons, ghouls, etc., who have almost always been animated without much choice in the matter by evil priests. Even in the case of vampires, it could be said that the creature's original soul has long since departed for whichever outer plane it aligned to, and its body is inhabited by some other evil force (which would also go back to its lower plane when the body is "killed" just like demons, etc., so you can't really kill those either unless you do so on their home planes).

The only real exception I can think of is the lich, who has made a conscious decision and undertaken complex preparation to become an undead creature. But you can't even really kill them permanently, since their bodies eventually decay - they have no further use for them - and they become demiliches. As it says in the Monster Manual, "Since it has no use for its physical body at this point, the lich leaves it to decay as it should have done centuries ago..." and "the [demi]lich will continue its quest for power in strange planes unknown to even the wisest of sages." It's also worth noting that death is rarely permanent or irreversible in the FR world.

[Carinna]

I wouldn't mind coming up with some way to not kill the vampires, either, but can't think of a convincing method or reason for doing so (at least, not without creating a much, much more involved mod than I want to for my first try).  So I am passing undead off as "dead already" for at least the first version of this mod.

Really, you can't "kill" undead because they're already dead. What you can do is release them from their curse - at least in the case of lesser undead like skeletons, ghouls, etc., who have almost always been animated without much choice in the matter by evil priests. Even in the case of vampires, it could be said that the creature's original soul has long since departed for whichever outer plane it aligned to, and its body is inhabited by some other evil force (which would also go back to its lower plane when the body is "killed" just like demons, etc., so you can't really kill those either unless you do so on their home planes).

Well, yes.  It's the release from the curse I was thinking of in terms of not "killing" the undead.  But whether that brought them back to life or not (I'm thinking not), it would involve a quest (or several of them) that I'm not prepared to write for my very first mod.  Right now this is a mini-mod with only a few changes, which I think is good to start with (though I have a lot of ideas for more things to come).  Incidentally, I believe many of the vampires can be released from their curse also; not all of them were willing converts either (I suspect the "fledgling vampires" in Bodhi's lair were former Shadow Thieves surprised by what happened to them).  Bodhi herself, of course, chose to become one.

Edited by Carinna, 17 December 2009 - 03:21 PM.

[Miloch]

Well, yes. It's the release from the curse I was thinking of in terms of not "killing" the undead.

My point was killing the undead would not be "killing" the original creature, since it already died some time ago. Conceivably, you could "kill" (slay if you prefer) the undead being and then use a resurrection spell or the like on the corpse to bring back the original creature. Though even if that's theoretically possible, it's beyond the scope of what you're trying to do with dialogue, as you say.

In the case of lesser vampires, killing the vampire who inflicted them will release them, at least before they become completely undead. This happens in the likes of Bram Stoker's Dracula when Lucy revives from her semi-vampiric state. But if they're already fully controlled vampires, they could become even greater threats if the infecting vampire is destroyed. The rulebooks imply this anyway: "Once they become undead, the new vampire is under the complete control of its killer. If that vampire is destroyed, the controlled undead are freed from its power and become self-willed creatures."

[Carinna]

My point was killing the undead would not be "killing" the original creature, since it already died some time ago.

Yes, this is actually the reasoning I am using to avoid having to completely change the game around for chapters 3 and 6.

I have finished going through the game and finding all the places in the main line quest where the party is forced to make a kill unnecessary to the plot in order to proceed and have drafted an annotation of what needs changing with some suggestions for how to change it, as Berelinde suggested.  Here is what I came up with:

Baldur's Gate II - SoA Pacifist Mod

Concept:  To permit a player to complete the MAIN LINE of quests without also REQUIRING any kills except Irenicus (and assorted already-dead vampires, including Bodhi).

What this mod is not:  This is not a mod to tame everything in the game.  Monsters will still attack you.  You are free to strike back or turn the other cheek (or run past them if you can).  All this mod provides is an unlocked door at the other end if you choose to run.

What this mod is ALSO not: This is not a moral judgment on how to play the game with a good alignment.  Not killing an evil creature can doom a good one.  This mod simply provides the player with more roleplaying choices than he/she previously had.

Solutions (by chapter):

Chapter 1:
Required kills:  4 mephit portals (AR0603).
Description: the door leading to the exit remains locked until all the mephit portals are dead.
Solution:  Door is always unlocked (Why is it locked anyway?  Did Yoshimo lock it up?)
Comment:  Yes, the mephit portals will continue to spit out mephits.  The only change is that the player is not REQUIRED to kill them to exit the dungeon.  He/she can run instead.

Chapter 2:
No changes required.

Chapter 3:
Required kills: Jaylos, Caehan, and Gracen (the defecting thieves and their contact at the Five Flagons Inn AR0511).
Description: Female PCs are required to kill all three men (and male PCs might be required to do so as well, since the only existing journal entry for the quest states they are all dead).
Solution: Change the dialogue so there is an option for the player to actually fool them into believing the party members are also defectors (this dialogue is already written).
Comment:  While several vampires get staked in this chapter, being vampires, they were already dead, so no changes need to be made to the remainder of the quests.  

Chapter 4:
Required kills: kobolds (AR1507), myconids (AR1503), and a troll (AR1506).
Description: "Graduation" from Spellhold requires the party be put through a series of tests.  The first two of these tests require the party to kill everything in sight before they are permitted to progress (and progression is only via teleportation).  A subsequent test requires a troll to be killed for his head, whether the party wants the treasure the head will grant or not.  This later room is already set up so that it appears to have a door that will not unlock until the troll is dead (I know it's a teleport too, but it looks like a door because it is around a corner).
Preferred Solution (for AR1507 and AR1503):  Provide a physical exit from AR1507 and AR1509 opposed to waiting for teleportation.  Allow the party to either kill the monsters (as in vanilla) or run past them to the exit. The keeper mage can meet them there and say his lines, similarly to the way he meets them in the troll scene.
Alternate Solution (for AR1507 and AR1503): Allow the keeper mage to permit progression (via teleport) from AR1507 and AR1509 if the party can render either a) the kobolds and myconids neutralized (via sleep, confusion, horror, etc., or anything else that disrupts them without killing) or b) the party inaccessible to the monsters (i.e. invisibility, protection from weapons, etc.)
OR: If the game can detect that the party did not kill any of the kobolds in AR1507, transport the party directly to AR1506 (this implementation will not require any changes to AR1503).  Reason: the keeper tells the party he doesn't know why they ended up in AR1503; that it must have been some sort of setback.  This solution gives context to the setback.
Solution (for AR1506):  Change exit door (or teleport) from AR1506 so that it is always unlocked (or attended by the keeper mage).  Reaching the door will permit the party to progress without needing to first kill the troll.
Comment: The kobolds, myconids, and trolls will not go away and will still attack as they currently do.  The only difference is that the player will not be stuck on that scene until the monsters are all dead.

Chapter 5:
Required kill: Demon in svirfneblin city (or the svirfneblin leader).
Description:  The party cannot exit the Underdark without first being disguised as Drow, or without killing the Drow party that guards the exit.  To be disguised as Drow, the party must meet Adalon, but they cannot get the gem that permits access to Adalon until they first kill either a demon or the svirfneblin leader. (While a thief could pickpocket the gem, not all parties will have this skill).
Solution: Alter the dialogue with the svirfneblin leader in AR2100 so it is clear that the demon can't really be killed, but just banished to its original location (plane?) and the "doorway" to the prime material plane locked with the earth scroll the svirfneblin provide.  I know this may be obvious already to many people, but it needs to be said more explicitly.
Comment:  I will write the dialogue changes for the party interaction with the svirfneblin leader.

Chapter 6:
No changes required.


Chapter 7:
No changes required.

I do need help to make this a reality.  I'm a dialogue writer; I don't do much else.  Thank you to everyone who has commented on this subject so far; I really appreciate the interest.

[Miloch]

This sounds like a fairly achievable mod, even for a beginning mod. Even though it spans the whole game and may take some time to code, you can divide and conquer it by chapters, as you have broken it down. I'm not an expert at dialogue coding, but I can help perhaps with other things like changing scripts, unlocking doors, etc. Perhaps the next step is to look through the decompiled dialogues and scripts (both for areas and creatures) to see what exactly might need to be changed, including any variables that may be used elsewhere.

[yarpen]

Stil dunno why you're bothering yourself with politics of non-killing monsters and demons. About human, yes, it's great that as a pacifist you can avoid few battles. It would be even better to add some Charisma checks and grant possibility of persuasion (bandits, some major enemies).