64 replies to this topic

[Lollorian]

Question: Are you going to base the Kits on the 50 level rule cap?

I don't like this idea. PnP sources are mentioning 40th level mainly because of gods, not because of players.

But that would mean your mod becomes (conceptually) incompatible with the BWP (which uses the level-50 rulesets and XP-cap remover by default)

They'll probably be still functional at 40+, like Jarno said in some thread but you won't get the special abilities

[yarpen]

Anyone is capable of writing description for Speciality Priest? I don't have any idea and sources, also english isn't my first language (it isn't so difficult to see that! ). With this one I'll be capable of working on first beta version of mod with Lathander/Helm/Talos trio to select.

[yarpen]

I've also wrote alternative version of Morninglords, Watchers and Stormlords abilities - less rebalanced and closer to PnP ones.

- Protection from Undead: +2 to AC and saving throws against Undead's attacks
- At 1st level can cast Faerie Fire three times per day
- At 3rd level can cast Sunschorch once per day
- At 5th level can cast Hold Undeath once a day
- At 7th level can cast Boon of Lathander once a day
- At 9th level can cast False Dawn once a day

- Destructive Blow: once per day Stormlords can raise their Attack and Damage rolls by 2 for 1 round/level. // yeah, he should be IMMUNE to Electricity...
- At 1st level can cast Shocking Grasp once a day
- At 3rd level can cast Call Lightning once a day
- At 7th level can cast Lightning bolt once per day. They gain an additional Lightning bolt for every three levels of experience (another at 10th, third at 13th, etc.).
- At 10th level can cast Chain Lightning once a day
- At 15th level can cast Earthquake once a day

- Glyph of Warding: once per day Watchers of Helm can create short-term Glyph of Warding (as the 3rd-level priest spell) that lasts only one round per level.
- At 3rd level can cast Detect Invisibility once a day
- At 5th level can cast Clairvorance once a day
- At 7th level can cast Seeking Sword once a day
- At 7th level can make three attacks every two rounds
- At 10th level can cast True Seeing once a day
- At 13th level can make two attacks every round

I'm not sure about this solution. Watcher of Helm becomes better fighter than Crusader. Additional spells are irregular. Hm. Dunno.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Question: Are you going to base the Kits on the 50 level rule cap?

I don't like this idea. PnP sources are mentioning 40th level mainly because of gods, not because of players.

But that would mean your mod becomes (conceptually) incompatible with the BWP (which uses the level-50 rulesets and XP-cap remover by default)

They'll probably be still functional at 40+, like Jarno said in some thread but you won't get the special abilities

Mhm, dunno. currently my problem is to get overall look fine in conceptual way so discussion about rulesets etc. is a long way story. If it'll increase compatibility, i'll probably do it as an optional thing, still I do prefer to start from basic concept.

Yeah, what Lollorian said is kinda the idea... but it has nothing to do with the PnP source ruleset... now:

I'm probably not going to grant to kits higher level abilities besides HLAs (and that's also questionable stuff).

Not even one? Say a crusader gets +1 to damage at level 50, it doesn't need to be great, it just needs to be there...
Besides the kit description needs to be clear on the definition, and consistent:

+1 to damage per 3 levels

Does not cap itself out at level 20 or at level 40, still just giving the character a +6 damage at level 50... unless you insist and then instead, the definition needs to be:

+1 to damage per 3 levels upon to level 18 from which the bonus stays at +6 to damage.

CRUSADER
Advantages:
- Use fighter's ThaC0 progression table (+1 per level)...

That's pretty much the impossible to code well.

See? I am not talking about making the Kit being some uber-god like creature, but just making sure the player doesn't need to use crowbar to get what he was promised.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 12 January 2010 - 11:46 PM.

[yarpen]

That's pretty much the impossible to code well.

I do not understand. .SPL with set ThaC0 exactly on warrior's value? If warrior's ThaC0 is advancing at higher levels, sure, it will be done. And bonuses like +1 to X per level would also be present after 20th level, as they usually are in Epic Level Characters tables. Still, most of kits doesn't have any of these (Mystic has lore bonus, wow. Speciality Priest isn't going to have anything. Crusader have extended ThaC0 table).

[Jarno Mikkola]

That's pretty much the impossible to code well.

I do not understand. .SPL with set ThaC0 exactly on warrior's value? If warrior's ThaC0 is advancing at higher levels, sure, it will be done.

How? Cause the +x to Thac0 spells have their limits if we change the Thac0 table a bit. As there is more than one 50th level rule set. Or are you going to code the .2da file according to my Thac0.2da, after using a read function on the Fighter line, not the Ranger, nor Paladin(thus not warrior)... quite hard to code. Or? It's easier to just be honest and say the Crusader gets Thac0 bonus at levels x, y, z... at the Kit description, isn't it?

And bonuses like +1 to X per level would also be present after 20th level, as they usually are in Epic Level Characters tables. Still, most of kits doesn't have any of these (Mystic has lore bonus, wow. Speciality Priest isn't going to have anything. Crusader have extended ThaC0 table).

Well, the cap comes at level 40.
Unless you prepare for it. For example: The Lore bonus for example has no harming effect on anything.

[yarpen]

How? Cause the +x to Thac0 spells have their limits if we change the Thac0 table a bit. As there is more than one 50th level rule set. Or are you going to code the .2da file according to my Thac0.2da, after using a read function on the Fighter line, not the Ranger, nor Paladin(thus not warrior)... quite hard to code. Or? It's easier to just be honest and say the Crusader gets Thac0 bonus at levels x, y, z... at the Kit description, isn't it?

I can provide patched CLAB 2da file for BWP. This mod isn't going to be compatible with every tweak/fix/improvement, sorry - I'm not going to remove anything because of that. I'm even not sure about compatibility with BWP: I'm working quite hard to reibalance everything and get it working, and don't want to see those sh*tty TDD kits near to mine. Most of cleric kits are going to be conceptually non-compatible. Also, what about ThaC0, aVenger done it for his revised Swashbuckler, so why not me?

[Jarno Mikkola]

I can provide patched CLAB 2da file for BWP.

That's 4+ clabxx.2da's.
Wouldn't it be wiser to be honest and tell the people what they are going to get, and not tell them what they should be seeing conceptually, when they are not seeing it in truth. Then you get the conceptual and honest truth, and not a fairytale about a god worshiper that for some reason was more powerful than the god he was worshiping. -That was killed by a goblin.

This mod isn't going to be compatible with every tweak/fix/improvement, sorry - I'm not going to remove anything because of that. I'm even not sure about compatibility with BWP: I'm working quite hard to reibalance everything and get it working, and don't want to see those sh*tty TDD kits near to mine. Most of cleric kits are going to be conceptually non-compatible.

Why go the extra mile and put BWP compatibility and then making it not even conceptually compatible with the bases...
I am not telling you to revamp the system or even change it, but making it as see through as possible... now you can do this by allowing the other systems to co-exist at the same time as you system is in works... after all, we are talking about the Megamod of the mega mods.
Now, you only have to code the kit and the items with their descriptions. But you'll better do the descriptions well, so there is no misgiving that, ah, the 'Holy Strategist of the Red Knight'(from Divine Remix) is not the same as a Crusader that by the divine miracle got a holy symbol of the Red Knight(bough it from the Candelkeep with 1gp ) and decided at that moment to devout themselves to the Red Knight(from your mod, v6).
I already see many versions of your mod existing, so try to take this as positively as possible.

Also, what about ThaC0, aVenger done it for his revised Swashbuckler, so why not me?

Well, because you are wiser. Because you don't want the Imp keep taunting you for the rest of your cyber-life, being always behind every great misfortune scheme you'll eventually have to face. JJ.

And it might be better if you would just add the new Kits, but not remove the three old ones, as we now can scroll the Kit Table.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 14 January 2010 - 03:18 AM.

[Lollorian]

This mod isn't going to be compatible with every tweak/fix/improvement, sorry - I'm not going to remove anything because of that. I'm even not sure about compatibility with BWP: I'm working quite hard to reibalance everything and get it working, and don't want to see those sh*tty TDD kits near to mine. Most of cleric kits are going to be conceptually non-compatible.

Why go the extra mile and put BWP compatibility and then making it not even conceptually compatible with the bases...

Word

I agree, first finish what you want, make it as perfect as you want and then focus on eccentric compatibility problems

Then you get the conceptual and honest truth, and not a fairytale about a god worshiper that for some reason was more powerful than the god he was worshiping.

That is so true. I'm gonna puke

[yarpen]

Dear imp, I really don't know what are you talking about. It's not so difficult to be done (fighter's ThaC0 progress instead of priest's one) and I don't see a possibility of glitches here. Can you explain why not to do this? Crusader without this advantage is very limited, and is really far from PnP (and I've already changed him a lot because I don't use spheres system).

Now, you only have to code the kit and the items with their descriptions.

Now I have to pass all of my exams and get really really drunk, Impy. But after that I'll focus on Faiths and Pantheons (or Faiths and Avatars, because AD&D handbook is called like this).

But you'll better do the descriptions well, so there is no misgiving that, ah, the Painbearer of Ilmater(from Divine Remix) is not the same as a Crusader that by the divine miracle got a holy symbol of Ilmater and decided at that moment to devout themselves to Ilmater(from your mod, v6).

Ilmater is one of the gods who's not available for Crusaders. And that's why I don't want to even try to be compatible with Divine Remixes or other cleric kit mods.

I already see many versions of your mod existing, so try to take this as positively as possible.

Do you mean other cleric's revision or my alternative descriptions?

Well, because you are wiser. Because you don't want the Imp keep taunting you for the rest of your cyber-life, being always behind every great misfortune scheme you'll eventually have to face. JJ.

I'm ready, my mortal enemy!

And it might be better if you would just add the new Kits, but not remove the three old ones, as we now can scroll the Kit Table.

But other kits will ruin overall balance of my system. Also they're going to be conceptually incompatible. Don't you understand what I want to achieve? You've got only three kits: Crusader, Mystic and Speciality Priest. Speciality Priests are DR's Watchers of Helm, Morninglords of Lathander etc. Their abilities are granted via scripts and items. Also Crusader has unique for every deity Spiritual Weapon (also stolen from DR). I'm removing original kits because I want to use their usability tables too. And change detecting faith via checking kit into detecting Holy Symbols.

Duh.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I really don't know what are you talking about. It's not so difficult to be done (fighter's ThaC0 progress instead of priest's one) and I don't see a possibility of glitches here. Can you explain why not to do this? Crusader without this advantage is very limited, and is really far from PnP (and I've already changed him a lot because I don't use spheres system).

Well, because you won't be using the actual table, but one that feels very much alike, as you use artificial means to bend the Cleric Thac0 table, so you shouldn't describe it to be identical, but as you should describe it as unique table that only this kit uses, and then you can make reference to that it should be alike the Fighters table. Clever?

Well, because you are wiser. Because you don't want the Imp keep taunting you for the rest of your cyber-life, being always behind every great misfortune scheme you'll eventually have to face. JJ.

I'm ready, my mortal enemy!

Ah, but you see, I am Immortal.

And it might be better if you would just add the new Kits, but not remove the three old ones, as we now can scroll the Kit Table.

But other kits will ruin overall balance of my system. Also they're going to be conceptually incompatible. Don't you understand what I want to achieve? You've got only three kits: Crusader, Mystic and Speciality Priest. Speciality Priests are DR's Watchers of Helm, Morninglords of Lathander etc. Their abilities are granted via scripts and items. Also Crusader has unique for every deity Spiritual Weapon (also stolen from DR). I'm removing original kits because I want to use their usability tables too. And change detecting faith via checking kit into detecting Holy Symbols.

So you wish to compete and loose with Divine Remix, Refinements, Ashes of Embers and any amount of different mods, when you could co-exist with them without too much trouble, for example the special weapons can give the priest the needed proficiencies while they are equipped, or the holy symbol can do that, this of course might be if the weapon component of Ashes of Embers is not installed.

But you'll better do the descriptions well, so there is no misgiving that, ah, the 'Holy Strategist of the Red Knight'(from Divine Remix) is not the same as a Crusader that by the divine miracle got a holy symbol of the Red Knight(bough it from the Candelkeep with 1gp ) and decided at that moment to devout themselves to the Red Knight(from your mod, v6).

Ilmater is one of the gods who's not available for Crusaders. And that's why I don't want to even try to be compatible with Divine Remixes or other cleric kit mods.

Ah, sorry, fixed.

Now, you only have to code the kit and the items with their descriptions.

Now I have to pass all of my exams and get really really drunk, Impy. But after that I'll focus on Faiths and Pantheons (or Faiths and Avatars, because AD&D handbook is called like this).

Of course you need to, here's to hoping the exams go well, and the drinking goes even better.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 14 January 2010 - 04:19 AM.

[Tieflingz]

We're making progress! And Progress is good!

I love Lord Vega's LPs, especially Silent Hill series, one of the most awesome guy with awesome voice

Sorry, getting off topic, Progress! Progress is awesome, and I say maybe compatible with DR, but Ashes of Embers? I mean... it's not even Forgotten Realms gods (Or are they?), so... If not compatible with DR, that's totally fine with me as I'll uninstall theirs and install this anyways, kits are not meant to become faith-selections but real 'kits' anyways.

Edited by Tieflingz, 14 January 2010 - 04:00 AM.

[yarpen]

kits are not meant to become faith-selections but real 'kits' anyways.

The main problem is misunderstanding between cleric of faith and speciality priest. In vanilla game kitless cleric looks as priest who don't have any faith and that's quite misleading. Speciality Priests are especially devoted followers of their faith, that's why they're 'special' - have access to additional spells, instead of 1st spell of new spell level they get domain spell which can come from wizard's or druid's repertoire, still they lack of trueclass priest versality. Their spell selection is limited (Lathander's speciality priest will never summon/animate any undead creature and cannot use necromantic spells; Iyachtu Xwim will heal only himself etc.)

About compatibility - if you like those cleric kits, you can reproduce them in your mod, I'm not any sort of copyrights whore and they are just implementations of PnP kits. They are playable and fun. Still, I'll not bend my creation of new cleric's system for compatibility with another cleric-kits mods. I don't see a way how it can be compatible with DR system. I'm thinking about using DR's sphere system but on my own way. Pf.

[GeN1e]

Actually, I think it would be both easier and potentially more issue-free, if you don't do the 'kits within kits' technique, but instead add all possible combinations straightforward, even if they're 30+ in numbers. With scrollable selection bar it should no longer be an obstacle. Or even build the selection in the installer, if you don't want exe hackery.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Actually, I think it would be both easier and potentially more issue-free, if you don't do the 'kits within kits' technique, but instead add all possible combinations straightforward, even if they're 30+ in numbers. With scrollable selection bar it should no longer be an obstacle. Or even build the selection in the installer, if you don't want exe hackery.

Or use the item as a spell scroll that changes the kitted characters class and kit alike in this mod.

[yarpen]

Hm, that'd look much better - still I think that using items allows me to:
a) properly implement 'One spell less per level' for Speciality Priests (instead of this spell they do get domain spells, right?)
b) allow multi-classed clerics to get some action too. I don't see Demarch of Mask in any other way than Cleric/Thief.

It's not that I'm afraid of limits of kits in-game, it's hard for me to do these standard three so what about 9+ It's just about proper implementation of some PnP features of cleric class which were cool. I think I'll do next week minor part of the mod - cleric kits with some standard power (probably Lathander's Holy Symbol). Just to calculate how cool these are.

[Jarno Mikkola]

b) allow multi-classed clerics to get some action too. I don't see Demarch of Mask in any other way than Cleric/Thief.

Well, if you wish, you can use Proto-dual the cleric into being Thief->Cleric, so that the thief level raises with a certain amount when the cleric levels up... or so I assume cause this mod does almost that... well, it actually levels up both classes and then sets the other to be level behind, but the level upping is just for one class, not as a multi-classed char.

[yarpen]

Well... I don't want to? ;]