64 replies to this topic

[yarpen]

Hello. I'm currently starting to (yup, again...) develope my own mod project which is currently called Faiths and Pantheons. If you have any alternative, sensible title you can tell me about it. But what I'm going to do and why I'm also bothering you with that?

Introduction
Faiths and Pantheons mod aims to improve divine-based classes (mainly cleric, but also paladins and rangers) and give to player much wider range of character's developement possibilities thanks to new, unlimited deity's selecting system (limited only by my capabilities of creating new item icons). Vanilla cleric kits are deprecated and instead of them there come three now, not connected to any FR's god.

New Kits
That's the main thing which needs Your support, opinions and criticising. I think that current three kit templates are fine (I've covered most important cleric types - battlepriest who's fighting skills are near to warrior's one; mystic clerics who connects arcane and divine magic; and leader-cleric type), but their abilities, skills and powers aren't at final version. They need a lot of tuning, so please, comment.

CRUSADER/DEFENDER OF FAITH/BATTLEPRIEST
- Can use any type of weapon
- Fighter's THAC0 progress
- At 7th level achieve specialisation in his deity's favourite weapon. At 14th level achieve mastery.
- Once per day per 4 level (starts at 7th level) can use Bane of Infidels which grants him +1 to thaco and damage and additional 1/2 attack per round for 1 round per level. At 14th level it grants +2 to thaco, damage, full additional attack per round and makes him always deal maximum damage.

- Cannot access 6th and 7th level spells.
- Cannot use greater holy symbols.
- Cannot turn undead.

(He's using fighter's limited HLA table (doesn't have access to Greater Whirlwind and Smite) with addition of Holy/Unholy Word.)

MYSTIC/ADEPT
- Can cast wizard's spells from (lesser) Divination school
- Can learn 1-7 level spells of one school of magic (with exception from Divination)
- Can cast wizard spells from scrolls

- Can use items only available to cleric/wizard
- Mage's THAC0 progress
- Cannot turn undead

(Gain access to additional HLAs: Maze, Time Stop, Alcatricity)

PILGRIM/PROPETH/BETTER TITLE PLEASE
- Starts with +1 bonus to all saves
- Once per day per 4 levels can use Speech ability. Good and neutral aligned pilgrim's speech boosts their allies defense capabilities and removes fear, when evil one's weakens enemies attack and tries to scare them away.

Good/neutral aligned pilgrim's Speech effects:
1st level: +1 to AC and saving throws. Removes fear.
10th level: +2 to AC and saving throws. Immunity to fear.
20th level: +2 to AC and saving throws. Immunity to fear, mind-affecting spells and instant-death effects.

Evil aligned pilgrim's Speech effects:
1st level: -1 to Thac0 and Damage. Save vs. spells negates fear.
10th level: -2 to ThaC0 and Damage. Save vs. spells negates fear (-2 mod.)
20th level: -2 to ThaC0 and Damage. Save vs. spells negates fear (-4 mod.). Save vs. death negates instant death.

- Cannot turn undead.

Kits are sometimes specifing which deities are good for you. Pilgrim-type of cleric wouldn't be a good follower of Tempus, when Helm isn't a good patron of Mystic. Here are some examples of class-kit/deity distribution.

BATTLEPRIEST: Tempus, Red Knight, Helm, Iyachtu Xwim
MYSTIC: Azuth, Mystra, Selune, Shar, Oghma
PROPETH: Ilmater, Lathander, Sune, Cyric, Talos

CLERIC/MAGE: Azuth, Mystra, Selune, Oghma
CLERIC/THIEF: Mask, Cyric
CLERIC/FIGHTER: Tempus, Red Knight, Helm, Iyachtu Xwim
CLERIC/RANGER: Melikki

Holy Symbols
Instead of kit, cleric can select (at the beginning of BG1:TotSC, BG2: SoA and BG2: ToB) holy symbol of a god who's he choosing as his patron. Without holy symbol he cannot use his abilities (casting spells, turning undead) so there's no more any place for "generalist" priest. Symbols are coming in three versions - Lesser (usable by: clerics, paladins, rangers), normal (usable by: clerics) and Greater (usable by: non-kitted, single-class clerics). Some of them can be worn only by characters of certain alignment, other are usable only by certain kits/multiclasses so there's a lot of diversion between them. Holy Symbols aren't only granting possibility of casting spells and turning undead but also they provide some additional powers which are dependent on domain of god, from who's this symbol came. Also powers are different at different levels of symbols.

After selecting your god you cannot remove your holy symbol (and you cannot change your faith alone). Maybe there will be a one or two chances for that, but they're going to be unique ones and quest-related.

Current model of Holy Symbol's bonuses is quite simplified. I'm thinking about granting Domain Powers everytime cleric gets access to new spell's level - but that's under heavy discussion.

LATHANDER

Immunity to level drain
Once per day can cast Sunschorch (Lesser power)
Once per day can cast Minor Restoration (Average power)
Once per day can cast False Dawn (Greater power)
(for Battlepriest: specialisation/after 14th level mastery in Maces)

HELM

Immunity to backstab
Once per day can cast Shield (Lesser power)
Once per day can cast Glyph of Warding (Average power)
Once per day can cast True Sight (Greater power)
(for Battlepriest: specialisation/after 14th level mastery in Bastard Swords)

TALOS

+20% electricity resistance for Lesser Symbol; +40% for Symbol; +80% for Greater Symbol
Once per day can cast Shocking Grasp (Lesser power)
Once per day can cast Call of Lighgning (Average power)
Once per day can cast Chain Lightning (Greater power)
(for Battlepriest: specialisation/after 14th level mastery in Spears)

So...
... I think it's interesting solution. Mod is in early stage of developement but it doesn't involve really heavy coding. I'm looking forward for any hints, opinions and offers for help. Later I'll probably need a lot of help from someone who's proficient in writing in english, because my language as you can see - isn't at it's best.

Sooo, thank you for your attention. See ya.
- Yarp

Edited by yarpen, 25 November 2009 - 03:38 PM.

[Arkenor]

Sounds very cool indeed! Would it play nicely with Divine Remix, or would it be a substitute for it?

On the Domain powers question, they were a 3rd edition addition, weren't they? Might overpower clerics somewhat to add them to a 2nd edition based game, if they were in addition to the extra powers speciality clerics already get.

Edited by Arkenor, 25 November 2009 - 12:55 PM.

[yarpen]

Divine Remix is a great mod in conceptual view, but IMO it's currently unplayable. Sphere systems is very close to canon, but some of the cleric gain f.e. 2 spells per level. And it's hard to add many new spells, because BG2 spell-system is very combat oriented, that's why some of the clerics suffer from lack of good spells. That's one of the reasons of creating this mod - to give to a player a possibility of having more interesting cleric character without problems like that.

"Domain powers" from 3rd edition works in different way. When I'd want to make it as it's in AD&D, I'd have to change one kit into Speciality Priest who will gain additional spells as cleric kits in old version of Divine Remix. I don't know is it fine or not in terms of balancing the class. Advantage of my solution over DR's one is that I can grant domain powers/spells to deities as I want, because there's no fear of trueclass cleric to be totally_unc00l.

Edit:
I'm currently thinking about Speciality Priest kit. Prophet's and Battlepriest skills could be connected (Bane of Infidels as party-affecting ability with short duration); but then how to specify what Speciality Priest is? Any good, AD&D sources for that? I think I'll use old DR's interpretation of kits. Of course I'l have to get a full agree from Andyr/Grim/CamDawg Gibberling Trio But it could be somethin like:

Specialty Priest with Lathander's Holy Symbol (Dawnbringer)
- Immunity to level drain
- Gain additional spells: Rosemantle, Lathander's Shield
- At 1st level can cast thrice per day Faerie Fire
- At 3rd level can cast once per day Sunschorch
- At 5th level can cast once per day Hold Undeath
- At 7th level can cast once per day Boon of lathander
- At 9th level can cast once per day Mass Cure
- At 11th level can cast once per day False Dawn
- At 14th level can cast once per day Greater Restoration

Edited by yarpen, 25 November 2009 - 02:19 PM.

[Wisp]

I think immunity to level drain and immunity to backstab are too powerful. Maybe if you were to obtain them at some high level, but I'm not sure these bonuses (including electricity resistance) are necessary at all.

Along the same lines, I'm a little concerned about the advantages of the kits. E.g. the pilgrim's +4 to saves at level 20 is a huge bonus and +1 to saves at level 1 is pretty hefty as well. These good pilgrim bonuses are most certainly more powerful than the ones obtained by evil pilgrims. The other two kits are also a bit on the powerful side, I think.

How come none of the kits can turn undead? Turn undead is pretty fundamental to the cleric class after all (it's like making bards who can't sing). I'd love to offer something constructive as a replacement for the turn undead penalty, but I'm currently drawing a blank. Maybe I'll think of something later.

[yarpen]

Currently I'm also thinking that these bonuses 'd fit better for Specialty Priests. Kits needs a lot of reibalancing, that's why I'm asking. Hmpf, I'm nearly certain to deprecate Propeth kit and instead of him make Specialty Priest. It's going to be complicated as hell, but still, lot of fun I think.

[Azkyroth]

PILGRIM/PROPETH/BETTER TITLE PLEASE

Evangelist?

[EDIT]

CRUSADER/DEFENDER OF FAITH/BATTLEPRIEST
- Can use any type of weapon

Unfortunately, the way item usability works, you'd pretty much have to make this guy a paladin subclass to pull this off, as I understand it (there was a druid kit that could use crossbows that had a similar problem, as I recall).

Edited by Azkyroth, 25 November 2009 - 02:38 PM.

[yarpen]

Nah.
Also, little information. Probably I'll include minor item pack, because clerics of helm should wear their special plate mails. Great idea for advantage/disadvantage - you're starting with quite powerful item, but then feh, there's this beautiful Delver's plate and you cannot use it because you're devoted to your armor. Hm.

Damn, that's the truth - you cannot allow to kit to wear items unusable by class. I'l try to find some workarounds - I hope that's possible because other item restrictions are base for both Mystic and Crusader kits.

Edited by yarpen, 25 November 2009 - 02:44 PM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Unfortunately, the way item usability works, you'd pretty much have to make this guy a paladin subclass to pull this off, as I understand it (there was a druid kit that could use crossbows that had a similar problem, as I recall).

But a cleric kit doesn't have to have cleric as the base class, you just have to fit the the Kit to the class&racial selection screen, and the weapon proffs, spell tables etc. will follow from the base class... of course it's a bit tricky.

MYSTIC/ADEPT
(Gain access to additional HLAs: Maze, Time Stop, Alcatricity)

Those spells will be Innate spells, right? And not from the cleric spell book, cause that would be bad.

[yarpen]

Those spells will be Innate spells, right? And not from the cleric spell book, cause that would be bad.

I think that yes, but I'm thinking about better spell choice. Especially for Maze.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Those spells will be Innate spells, right? And not from the cleric spell book, cause that would be bad.

I think that yes, but I'm thinking about better spell choice. Especially for Maze.

How about Clerical Chain Contingency?

[Miloch]

"Pilgrim" and "Crusader" are just fine - I think even 2e classes in some supplement.

Is this an outgrowth of your Paladins of Faerun Kitpack or something different? Will it be compatible with it?

[yarpen]

It's stand-alone mod, but I don't see even in conceptual way how these mods could be incompatible. It's even preferred to use both of it (when I finally re-do PoF Kitpack, because it's now quite old. I'm planning additional minor tweaks to class/kits system. Or making PoF removing not all of the vanilla kits but only some of them.

So I think that final way how cleric kits are handled is: Crusader (fierce warrior of his faith with lesser access to spells and domain abilities), Mystic (cleric devoted to one of the gods of magic, who's capable of casting some wizard spells from selected school) and Speciality Priest (cleric who's much more devoted to his deity and gain a lot of powers from his deity). For current kit selection crucial is possibility of granting to them wider range of item usability than to original class. I'm thinking about general tweak which allows to clerics using all weapons.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Holy Symbols
Instead of kit, cleric can select (at the beginning of BG1:TotSC, BG2: SoA and BG2: ToB) holy symbol of a god who's he choosing as his patron. Without holy symbol he cannot use his abilities (casting spells, turning undead) so there's no more any place for "generalist" priest. Symbols are coming in three versions - Lesser (usable by: clerics, paladins, rangers), normal (usable by: clerics) and Greater (usable by: non-kitted, single-class clerics). Some of them can be worn only by characters of certain alignment, other are usable only by certain kits/multiclasses so there's a lot of diversion between them. Holy Symbols aren't only granting possibility of casting spells and turning undead but also they provide some additional powers which are dependent on domain of god, from who's this symbol came. Also powers are different at different levels of symbols.

After selecting your god you cannot remove your holy symbol (and you cannot change your faith alone). Maybe there will be a one or two chances for that, but they're going to be unique ones and quest-related.

Current model of Holy Symbol's bonuses is quite simplified. I'm thinking about granting Domain Powers everytime cleric gets access to new spell's level - but that's under heavy discussion.

Hmm, how are you going to manage that, is the holy symbol an item, and in case it is, which? Or does it depend on the item.
For example, I could see the Helm's priests using armor(plate mails) as their holy symbols, say a plate mail from level 1... to a full plate armor in the ToB. The trick is how to give the 'normal enhancementts', but a cleric could do that if the character is on certain level or higher in a speech tree, in their own chirch, or something to that effect.

And another thing, when the player chooses the Kit, I understand that he takes either Crusader, Mystic and (Speciality) Priest... just make sure that there are enough gods to choose for each, and so they can cast wide varioty of spells, among a few predifined choises every one can cast, like all healing and restoration spells, the level of those spells do not matter from one god to another, just that they each can cast all of them(so Lathanders/Selûne's clerics could cast the Heal spell at level 5 for example, but all the others on level 6). So there won't be a Battleguard of Tempus that has no healing spells to save her life, much less anyone elses.
So the gods could grand 'priority spheres', and few special extra spells, unlike the Divine Remix that has 'Major', 'Minor' and 'No acces spheres'.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 26 November 2009 - 02:56 AM.

[Tieflingz]

HELM

Immunity to backstab

Okay, maybe I'm slightly (Or much) biased, but that's just OP!
Maybe turn it to half/a quarter backstab damage?

Ha ha, just my personal opinion, really looking forward towards the mod. Since you're replacing faith Deities with Holy Symbols, this makes much more room for choosing a deity without being limited to 9 maximum kit usage, great idea!

Don't forget the following Deities as well! (More common and mentioned around these areas)

Good: Ilmater, Torm, Tyr, Selune
Neutral: Tymora, Waukeen (I'd point out Sylvanus, but Druid.... yea... Red Knight? Maybe)
Evil: Umberlee, Mask, Shar (Lloth, but it's Drow and the game basically only allow elves in character creation without giving the benefits of being drow?)

Just another train of thought

[yarpen]

Good: Ilmater, Torm, Tyr, Selune
Neutral: Tymora, Waukeen (I'd point out Sylvanus, but Druid.... yea... Red Knight? Maybe)
Evil: Umberlee, Mask, Shar (Lloth, but it's Drow and the game basically only allow elves in character creation without giving the benefits of being drow?)

Only these? Where's Eldath (the Pacifist one, very unique in FR world but sill exists, and a lot of more. It's only limited by my time shared to create holy symbol's icons and when I've got very good source for that (there''s great gallery at Wizards of the Coast site where there's a lot of them) then I don't see a problem. At first I want to create stabilised version for vanilla deities, just for making kits etc. completed and finished. After that every version brings some new deities from fascinating FR world.

About some of the "Domain advantages", yup, they're too powerfull for all of the cleric kits. We discused it, it's going to be available only for specialty clerics - so it isn;t so easy

Still, train of thoughts is very welcome.
Krwa, too drunk to work. Feh.

Edited by yarpen, 26 November 2009 - 07:31 PM.

[Tieflingz]

It's only limited by my time shared to create holy symbol's icons and when I've got very good source for that (there''s great gallery at Wizards of the Coast site where there's a lot of them) then I don't see a problem.

Hmm, I might be able to be of help on the sketching part, and turning the files into the format you needed for the information screen (Not sure what the technical terms are)

Smaller Icon (When placed in inventory)
Larger Icon (When picked up with cursor)
Item Sketch (When right clicked to see the item description) --> Not a problem when it comes to holy symbols, drew and practiced tons of those out of personal interests

Also I believe the icons can use the ones from NWNII as templates, with the description it has, it's probably easy to guess what holy symbol a deity use~

Edited by Tieflingz, 26 November 2009 - 11:40 PM.

[yarpen]

Wow, sounds cool - You're quite talented when it's about sketches, I think that a bit of your help would be priceless. In the abyss of internet, in D&D 3rd edition archives I've found interesting gallery.
http://www.wizards.c...d/ag/20020628b2
http://www.wizards.c...d/ag/20020628b1
There are also galleries of non-human deities. I think that most of these are possible to be done, the most important thing for me is integration with vanilla BG2. But at first I've to do complete base for this mod - kits and vanilla deities system.

[Tieflingz]

Okay, have to admit, drawing the ones I haven't touched are hard, something I didn't expect while excitingly sketched some of these
Mask was the easiest (I've been drawing Mask since when?.. Not even I remember, my high school teacher even thought that was a gang sign)
Here are the samples

1st row to last, left to right

Umberlee, Mask, Beshaba
Oghma, Waukeen (Or Tymora, since they're both coins), Red Knight

The ones I really like are usually Umberlee and Mask, I can only say their portfolio sounded awesome and they're both evil-aligned (Hehe)

I'll need to look into more BG style sketches, I don't think shading is necessary in its style, but we'll see.

[yarpen]

WOW. Those are really cool You're far better specialist in this case than I'm but is this shading good por description screen images? What about priests... Mask is one of my favourite deities Thanks to using item as deity selection I can easily make holy symbols available for cleric-thieves, which fits to Mask perfectly. What about Umbrelee... there's a lot of evil gods, with Umbrelee there's one major problem - we don't have any water-based spell for her followers. Maybe those could be created, it's possible to import animations from IWD. And she's quite popular at Sword Coast (why not in Amn, Athkatla is quite large port) so it's a good bet for additional content.