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#61 berelinde

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 09:08 AM

From what I've seen of Sten, he makes me smile, but I fear there's not enough of him to go around - strong and silent is good, but not that silent. Though I may be unfair, because towards the end of the game everyone becomes silent, more or less.

Sten is a lot less silent than you'd think. I know that you're familiar with the technique for writing laconic characters that aren't boring. You give them just as many banters, friendship talks, and scenery interjections as everyone else, but you make their responses short and to the point. The writers got that one perfect with Sten. His lack of talkativeness comes across beautifully through his ample dialogue. I suspect that you would appreciate his humor. He isn't snarky, but his irony gland is definitely working.

Wynne and Oghren I'm indifferent about. Probably should try them on one of the next runs.

Wynne is indispensible if you're running a goody-two-shoes non-mage, which I am, this game. Unfortunately, her banters with other characters are far more entertaining than her talks with the PC. That's probably my fault, since I'm playing the PC as highly respectful.

Oghren... meh. He's loud, coarse, and fixated on booze and women. My PC doesn't interest him, which is good because he repulses her, but he's forever hitting on Wynne. It's possible he'll grow on me, but I don't hold out much hope for it.

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#62 Kaeloree

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 01:41 PM

Joinable NPCs are certainly possible--I spoke to Dave Gaider about it briefly earlier this year. I look forward to mucking around with one particular character, myself.

I adore Shale unwholesomely. I'm also inordinately fond of Zevran, who I thought I'd hate. I like these characters. :)

#63 Choo Choo

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 04:56 PM

Yes, I agree with people - Shale is so, so awesome. The thing where he
Spoiler
had me laughing so hard I cried.

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#64 cmorgan

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 07:49 PM

Joinable NPCs are certainly possible--I spoke to Dave Gaider about it briefly earlier this year. I look forward to mucking around with one particular character, myself.


I think several of us are... the challenge is how you can get Claudia Black and Kate Mulgrew to voice the banter lines ;)

I can afford some limited studio time and perhaps even a starting voice actor, but I am not sure I could swing getting all those pro actors to participate. So NPC<>NPC banters look to be mod<>mod, rather than

[Morrigan] I thought I smelled something worse than Allistairs socks... you have been cooking again, Aran.
[Aran] Still better than that corpse gall and deathroot concoction you have been smelling up the camp with.
[Morrigan] Yes, but yours is intended to be edible, is it not?
[Aran] Yes. And I take it that yours is not.
[Morrigan] Hmmm. Wilder Apostate Witch, corpse parts, and a dark plant named "deathroot". My, your intelligence is such that I just have to ask... which Chantry provided your Templar training?
[Aran] I never... hey, that was an insult, right?
[Morrigan] Lothering. It must have been Lothering.

#65 Kulyok

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 01:41 AM

Found something else(I'm probably not the first one, but anyway): At Soldier's Peak, if you return after the quest is complete, three black crows follow Shale wherever she goes. :) Given Shale's history with birds, I found it pretty funny, actually.

#66 EvaineDian

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 07:58 AM

I found something interesting:

There are certain places in the game - if you keep visiting them from other areas every ten or fifteen minutes(or sometimes even five), you get a new random NPC-NPC banter each time. For example:
- Orthan Thaig, first main corridor.
- Dwarves's city(Orzammar's Common?), on the bridge to Proving.
- Mage Circle(Mage Tower), Apprentices's quarters, the corridor right behind the door that templars close before you(and open again when the tower is clear).


The trigger on the bridge in Orzammar (and the one at the entry of the Dalish camp) triggers every time you enter the area, no matter how much time passed. I kept jumping between the Dalish camp and my camp to get as many of the banters as possible.



I think almost all of the companions are great. There were some I thought would be totally boring, like Wynne, Oghren and Leliana, but they turned out to be surprisingly fun to have around.

Wynne doesn't have too many interesting things to say to the PC (but so did most of the others, I think), that is true, but her banters with Oghren and Zevran(!!!) were hilarious. Who thought she was such a sly old bitch. ^_^

I thought Zevran would might be cool if you romance him, then I found out that he's bi (which I didn't like - bi characters in games usually are just a cheap way to introduce a second romance option), but he's surprisingly nice to have around as a friend, too, and I loved his obsession with granny boobs.

Leliana was quite boring in the beginning, until she suddenly started hitting on my female PC! I didn't know she was bi, too. She had some nice lovetalks, I especially liked the one where she sings. Another plus is that in the German version, she is voiced by the German Jaheira, one of my favourite voice actors ever.

Oghren is quite rude, but I like the sex jokes and the drunken banters in the camp.

Alistair... I really didn't want to romance him, I hate his haircut (the fringe!!!), and everyone kept telling me what an idiot he was. There are so many hilarious banters with or about him that further made me think he was an idiot. Then his voice - what I have heard of his English voice is nice, but his German voice is... very, very dorky at times, like when he complains that he is never allowed to be drunk or when he has an itchy wound. :doh: :lol: But the lovetalks where nice and before I knew it, I was head over heels in love with him and devastated by some of the choices you have to make near the end.
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The sex jokes! Alistair warned me that they would all talk about the night we spent together, but I didn't think there would be so many innuendos. Me likes!

#67 Solar's Harper

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 04:00 AM

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Well there could be another more logical reason for that outcome, like, is the country really ready to be ruled by a king who takes such a consort as his partner? Weakness of the feudal system they might say, and in a place like Fereldan, appeasing the court and populace is almost paramount for a royal's survival. ;)

Though it could've also been an unoffical partnership, as if history wasn't full of them as it were, suppose that might appear sooner or later in some mod or something of similar nature. <_<

Edit: Fixed quote tags.

Edited by Solar's Harper, 19 November 2009 - 04:02 AM.

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#68 EvaineDian

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 04:30 AM

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#69 berelinde

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 06:21 AM

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I got lucky. I was running a human noble warrior with good verbal skills and was able to get the happy ending. Finally, at long last, a game where you don't get penalized for playing a human.

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#70 EvaineDian

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 06:53 AM

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Wow, I didn't know that, thanks for telling me! It seems I was too nice to him after all. :rolleyes: I might have to go back and replay that and see if I like it, but... I guess it still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
Spoiler


I thought a bit about the whole situation and what Solar's Harper and Alistair himself said, and I don't think my view is so illogical after all. Alistair said he didn't want my city elf to be
Spoiler
, but I guess what it all boils down to is that she's an elf - a part of a poor, enslaved, "inferior" race. Now, I can understand that before defeating the Archdemon, he can't accept her, because human society sees elves as inferior and because they think they will probably all die, anyway. But after the defeat, it seems that the elves can gain far more recognition - after all, my city elf just saved Ferelden, is a national hero and basically rules the country anyway. I think in the afterglow of the big success, while everybody was still overjoyed and celebrating, Alistair could just have married her and people wouldn't have minded her heritage so much...

Alistair's reasons aren't such good arguments, anyway.
Spoiler

Edited by EvaineDian, 19 November 2009 - 07:44 AM.


#71 Eleima

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 08:08 AM

Alistair said he didn't want my city elf to be

Spoiler
, but I guess what it all boils down to is that she's an elf - a part of a poor, enslaved, "inferior" race. Now, I can understand that before defeating the Archdemon, he can't accept her, because human society sees elves as inferior and because they think they will probably all die, anyway.


Actually, if it makes you feel any better, the first time around, he dumped my Human Noble, because she hadn't been arrogant enough to take the persuade option,
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. I hate how that option is phrased, because it's plain maneuvering the guy, you
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, and that just... doesn't sit well with me. But, at least that option lets you get a relatively happy ending, right? ^_^

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#72 EvaineDian

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 10:14 AM

Well, yes, there doesn't seem to be any 100% happy ending.
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#73 Eleima

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 01:02 PM

Well, yes, there doesn't seem to be any 100% happy ending.

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Amen to that! I just hated that scene.
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:crying:

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#74 WeeRLegion

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 01:07 PM

Despite of the 18+ rating, a lot of the players of the game are going to be teenage nerd boys. So without adding an Y/N tick box for peeking, making you watch is probably the best they can do to please their fanbase. .p

#75 Kulyok

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 10:43 PM

I admit, if I was jealous during That Scene, it was not because of Alistair. Not that I didn't like Alistair - he's got good lines and a good, if short, romance. When I played my Dalish Elf romancing Alistair, couldn't bring myself to romance Zevran and leave Alistair broken-hearted. We had a very good romance.

But the problem with Alistair is - just like Anomen, he has all these other options. He can be nice and he can be nasty. Very nasty. So, my human mage(who romances Leliana) looks at Alistair and remembers other lines he says - him being hysterical at Landsmeet if I try to show mercy, him trying to dump PC, and all other terrible things. When Alistair tells PC about her life expectancy and other Warden perks and she says "I feel betrayed", he reprimands her *very* harshly, for one. Basically, say the wrong thing and you see myself in the mirror - selfish, egocentric, world-revolves-around-me-spoiled. And I hate that in other people.

I think I'll get him executed on this playthrough. I'm a bit tired of this "make your fellow Warden king" quest every single time. For some reason, a Warden on the throne doesn't sit well with me.

Two Wardens on the throne, on the other hand... my other Human Noble playthrough may yield completely different results. But after Soldier's Peak quest I'm more and more convinced that Wardens just shouldn't have anything to do with power. Wardens are there for the Blight - uniting the land and stepping back when the crisis is past.



By the way, on a different matter: Sten! I never took him with me for long stretches of time before, and I now discovered this: when we travel, he sometimes says floating lines(for example, about mages in the tower). And later I can ask him about it via "let's talk about something you mentioned before" menu. It's nice. Alas, he still doesn't want to give me +10 for the cake, but he's in his 80's approval without gifts, anyhow.

#76 Eleima

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 11:11 PM

Two Wardens on the throne, on the other hand... my other Human Noble playthrough may yield completely different results. But after Soldier's Peak quest I'm more and more convinced that Wardens just shouldn't have anything to do with power. Wardens are there for the Blight - uniting the land and stepping back when the crisis is past.

I completely agree on that one. It's complete chance that led the country to this state of affairs, and that's just not a Warden's duty. A Warden's duty is to remain vigilant in case of a Blight, and that's pretty much it. Although I was interested to see the ending my Human Noble could come up with.

By the way, on a different matter: Sten! I never took him with me for long stretches of time before, and I now discovered this: when we travel, he sometimes says floating lines(for example, about mages in the tower). And later I can ask him about it via "let's talk about something you mentioned before" menu. It's nice. Alas, he still doesn't want to give me +10 for the cake, but he's in his 80's approval without gifts, anyhow.

Sten is pure awesome. I've been having him tag along now that I'm playing with my mage and needed another tank. He's a very good hitter, and his dialogs are just... some are very, very funny. I love how he teases Alistair regarding the time spent locked in up Lothering, all the while keeping a straight face. He's almost condescending at times, but that's just how he is: a strong, quiet giant. ^_^ Me likes.

All in all, as I'm switching out all the companions, and trying them out, and going back and forth between the camp and the Mage Circle to hear the banters, I'm finding that each and every companion is well defined, likable, coherent, and well... they did a good job with the characters, I think. The only character I don't really like is Morrigan (for obvious spoilerish reasons I won't state here), but I think that's how it's meant to be. I'm surprised, because I was expecting to "not like" at least one or two characters, and well, I actually do like them all. They all have their faults and virtues, and that's pretty nice.

I *finally* got around to punching in my code for Shale (I couldn't find it at first, but it was on the back of the Blood Armor. oops!), so I'll soon to get see if that golem is all that you guys say he is! ^_^

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#77 berelinde

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 02:39 AM

Basically, say the wrong thing and you see myself in the mirror....

Ah, no one likes mirrors, or photographs. Seriously, I've long been convinced that the things we dislike most about other people are the traits we have in common. But whatever, this is a role-playing game. Our characters are who we make them, for good or bad. I know my new casteless dwarven rogue is as different from me as it's possible to be. I'm going to romance Zevran with that one, if I can help it... and if Alistair doesn't jolly her up to being a team player.

... I'm more and more convinced that Wardens just shouldn't have anything to do with power.

Do I hear Keldorn in that?

Regarding Sten, I have no idea how, but I managed to get Sten's approval up to 100% before even Alistair. I guess he just likes a firm, blunt, utterly tactless leader. Go fig.

... each and every companion is well defined, likable, coherent, and well... they did a good job with the characters, I think. The only character I don't really like is Morrigan (for obvious spoilerish reasons I won't state here), but I think that's how it's meant to be.

Why must it be meant to be? As goody-two-shoes as I tend to play, and I was playing that way, Morrigan loved my PC. Maybe it was because I seldom brought her along, but my PC went into the endgame with 100% Morrigan approval.

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#78 Eleima

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 03:03 AM

... each and every companion is well defined, likable, coherent, and well... they did a good job with the characters, I think. The only character I don't really like is Morrigan (for obvious spoilerish reasons I won't state here), but I think that's how it's meant to be.

Why must it be meant to be? As goody-two-shoes as I tend to play, and I was playing that way, Morrigan loved my PC. Maybe it was because I seldom brought her along, but my PC went into the endgame with 100% Morrigan approval.

Oh, Morrigan loved my PC (mostly because I had showered her with gifts, and left her at camp when going out to save the world, widows and orphans, and the lot), but that didn't keep my PC from hating her guts, especially when she shows up in the PC's room in Redcliff before the final showdown with the archdemon... <_< What I meant to say is that that's how Morrigan is characterized: she's not supposed to be the goody-two-shoes, pink fluffy bunnies kind of girl. She's a bit dark, a cynic, very pratical, and that's how she's supposed to be.

I don't know, maybe I'm biased. My next playthrough will be with my City Elf warrior guy who'll have the whole angry-at-the-world-and-especially-with-humans thing, and I plan to have him romance Morrigan, so maybe my view of her will be altered by that experience, who knows? I'm keeping an open mind. ^_^

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#79 WeeRLegion

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 03:14 AM

Regarding Sten, I have no idea how, but I managed to get Sten's approval up to 100% before even Alistair. I guess he just likes a firm, blunt, utterly tactless leader. Go fig.


Yeah, I was surprised to find out he enjoyed being kicked around. xD
But that's a good thing, he's one of the few NPCs whose ass you don't have to kiss to score approval. xP



Me, i'm increasingly disappointed with the point system. I just find that it's not on any level an accurate representation of human interaction.
And since the point gains have been designed with a bit of challenge in mind, and then some to offset for the bribery, I find it's quite near impossible to get into particularly good relations with almost anyone without either picking the more or less obvious ass-kissery options or unloading your wallet on a gift merchant.

Alistair in particular suffers from it. He'd be fun, well, he is fun, but all too often you'll get negative points for answering to his snark in kind; his sense of humor only works one way?
He'd be great without the point system, but with it, he turns into an sniveling brat you have to coo and pet too much for my liking. t_t

Otherwise too, the point gains and characters moral stands seem have been left half finished, and then loaded onto some poor summer intern to finish the last week before content lockdown. [rant]
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[/rant]

Edited by WeeRLegion, 20 November 2009 - 03:18 AM.


#80 EvaineDian

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 05:52 AM

But the problem with Alistair is - just like Anomen, he has all these other options. He can be nice and he can be nasty. Very nasty. So, my human mage(who romances Leliana) looks at Alistair and remembers other lines he says - him being hysterical at Landsmeet if I try to show mercy, him trying to dump PC, and all other terrible things. When Alistair tells PC about her life expectancy and other Warden perks and she says "I feel betrayed", he reprimands her *very* harshly, for one. Basically, say the wrong thing and you see myself in the mirror - selfish, egocentric, world-revolves-around-me-spoiled. And I hate that in other people.


A character without flaws would be boring, wouldn't it?

Alistair might look like Anomen at first sight, being a "knight" (and a virgin :)), having lost a loved one and wanting revenge, but I think overall, he's different. Alistair seems friendlier than Anomen to me, he bonds with and cares a lot about people (Wynne, Leliana, Duncan, and I think he was even nice to Zevran in some banters), whereas Anomen... Well, I mainly remember him snapping at others (Jaheira and Keldorn come to mind). The romance is far too short, I agree, but Alistair has a lot of other things to say, too, and in those lines he seemed far more in depth to me than vanilla Anomen. He shows a variety of different traits and moods, the whole range of dorky - funny - playful - happy - serious - angry - sad. Anomen doesn't show such a large range of emotions. Alistair knows where his limits are, he says repeatedly that he isn't meant to lead etc., whereas Anomen often seems a bit too cocky for my taste. (For the record, I do like Anomen!)

I don't think Alistair is overly selfish. He takes his duty as a Warden incredibly seriously, and does what he thinks needs to be done to fulfill his duty, even if it means that he will get hurt and that he will have to sacrifice himself or what he loves. Giving something up is selfless, not selfish.

The whole Loghain business at the Landsmeet is a special case. It would probably have served the "greater good" to have another Warden. I guess this is one of the very few moments where you could argue Alistair is being totally selfish and putting his own feelings above the greater good. Then again Alistair does what he does out of love for Duncan and sacrifices his happiness, his relationship or even his life (depending on how far you want to take it) for what he thinks he owes Duncan. That isn't selfish in my book, rather a well-meant, but rash decision made in the heat of the moment.

As much as I'm disappointed about Alistair dumping the PC, and although I think there should have been room for a different outcome if you had high enough cunning/coercion and tried hard enough to get him back etc., I nevertheless think it's a believable outcome.





I think I'll get him executed on this playthrough. I'm a bit tired of this "make your fellow Warden king" quest every single time. For some reason, a Warden on the throne doesn't sit well with me.


I'd like to have Loghain in my party, too, he's supercool. :) I just don't know if I can really go through with the execution (did it once just to see how far you can go, but had to reload).



Edit: Just had the talk about life expectancy and said "I feel betrayed", but Alistair didn't reprimand me at all. :huh:

Edited by EvaineDian, 20 November 2009 - 11:58 AM.