46 replies to this topic

[Annúgil]

Hello everyone!


I've been thinking about revising the skald kit to make it more detailed and fun to play. Here's what I have in mind. It's just an early concept, mind you. Here's the kit overview, with commentary.

This Nordic bard is also a warrior of great strength, skill and virtue. His songs are inspiring sagas of battle and valor and the Skald devotes his life to those pursuits.


Kit description will most likely be modified somewhat.

Available Races: Human, Half-Elf

Primary Attributes: Dexterity (12 Minimum), Strength (13 Minimum), Charisma (15 Minimum)

Changed intelligence to strength.


Stronghold: The Skald can acquire the theater beneath the Five Flagons Inn in the Bridge District.

Might change that to the warrior's keep instead.


Strengths

- +1 Bonus to THAC0 and Damage every 5 levels

Or should I simply use fighter's THAC0 advancement table?

- Bard's Battle Song

- Skald's song is different (at 1st level - gives allies +2 to hit and damage, -2 to AC; at 15th level - gives allies +4 to hit and damage, -4 to AC, Immunity to Fear; at 20th level - gives allies +4 to hit and damage, -4 to AC, and Immunity to: Fear, Stun, and Confusion

That's how current skald's is in the unmodded game; probably will stay that way.


- High Lore (for identifying)

Remove it perhaps? Not sure if it fits.

- Can specialize (++) in any of the following weapons: two-handed swords, axes and swords.

Perhaps 3 points in proficiency should be allowed?

- Can use Bucklers

- Built-in lingering song (when bard stops playing, the effects of his or her song last an additional 2 rounds - taken from IWDII feats)

Might decrease that to just one round. Could be improved by a HLA.



Weaknesses

- Must be partially Neutral in alignment

- Cannot use armor heavier than Chain Mail

- Cannot Pick Pocket

Removed because it doesn't work with the feel of the class.

- Has no access to spellcasting

Ditto. And it should balance out the melee bonuses.

- Limited weapon selection


That's the basic overview. Basically I plan to design this class to perform the role of the "battle bard". While the concept is somewhat similiar to the already exisiting Blade kit, it will have a different flavour. While the blade is a flashy fighter, skald is closer to a barbarian in his fighting style.
I plan to implement a tiered HLA table with four paths (as inspired by Caedwyr's Geomantic Sorcerer Kit). Proposed paths (work in progress):


1. Heroic epics path

Very strong buffs, with long casting times. Meant to be cast before combat.

Epic of Thoirdheach -> Skellige's saga (requires Epic of Thoirdheach) -> x ( requires Skellige's saga) -> etc.

2. Warrior path

Focused on special attacks. I've no ideas yet. Well, maybe shield bash? Though I'm not sure how to implement that.

3. Battle songs

To be cast during battles, short casting times, debuffs or short-term team buffs. Battle horns?

4. ??

Other than that I plan to implement 2-3 unique abilities, similar to Blade's spin abilities, which would grow in power with levels.

I was also thinking about making Skald's song better the longer he fights. Though I suspect that would be near impossible to implement. If that wouldn't work, something similiar would be nice.

Well, that's the basic project. Feedback greatly appreciated!

Edited by Annúgil, 21 September 2009 - 05:39 AM.

[vilkacis]

Stronghold: The Skald can acquire the theater beneath the Five Flagons Inn in the Bridge District.
Might change that to the warrior's keep instead.

That does seem to fit the image of the kit better than the playhouse.

- Can specialize (++) in any of the following weapons: two-handed swords, axes and swords.
Perhaps 3 points in proficiency should be allowed?

If you want to give it a viking feel, then long and/or short sword, axe, dagger and spear would be the most appropriate weapons. Sword and shield style fits, too (and on that note, it wouldn't be a bad idea to include bigger shields as well).

Specialization is good enough. Further weapon expertise is the true fighter's only real advantage over other classes, so I feel it should be left to them.

[Annúgil]

That does seem to fit the image of the kit better than the playhouse.

Agreed. I will change it.

Specialization is good enough. Further weapon expertise is the true fighter's only real advantage over other classes, so I feel it should be left to them.

Fair enough.

Is the kit balanced now? Or too good/weak? What do you think?

By the way, is there a way to create a round shield graphic? I'm pretty sure there were some in BG 1.

Edited by Annúgil, 24 September 2009 - 09:20 AM.

[vilkacis]

Is the kit balanced now? Or too good/weak? What do you think?

I think it looks good, but I'm not the right person to say anything about balance, sorry.

By the way, is there a way to create a round shield graphic?

I don't think it's possible to make a single shield with a different shape - you'd have to change all shields of that type. Try looking around the 1PP section, though - Erephine has been modifying game graphics for a long time, so there may be something interesting there.

[Annúgil]

I think it looks good, but I'm not the right person to say anything about balance, sorry.

Fair enough What do you think about the four HLA paths?

I don't think it's possible to make a single shield with a different shape - you'd have to change all shields of that type. Try looking around the 1PP section, though - Erephine has been modifying game graphics for a long time, so there may be something interesting there.

Thanks! I've found it. I was asking because I thought that a round shield fits the "nordic" image better. I might ask the mod creator if I could include it as a part of this mod (optional component).

One more thing : Is it possible to make Skald's song better the longer he fights? Probably would need a script, but not sure how to make one.

Edited by Annúgil, 24 September 2009 - 11:05 PM.

[Miloch]

I might ask the mod creator if I could include it as a part of this mod (optional component).

Pretty sure she gave blanket permission to use her stuff in other mods (a lot do so already). Just make sure it isn't already installed, which should be fairly easy with FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME.

One more thing : Is it possible to make Skald's song better the longer he fights? Probably would need a script, but not sure how to make one.

You would probably do this by stacking effects by duration in the .spl file for the skald song. For example, effect 1 might give +1 hit for duration 1-3600, effect 2 might give +1 hit/dam for 3601-7200, effect 3 giving +2 for 7201... etc. But I'm just guessing without looking at it. Also, I thought bardsong was hardcoded to stop if the bard performs any actions besides walking and singing, but maybe not for skalds.

Edit: effects after the first would have to be delayed/duration rather than just duration.

Edited by Miloch, 25 September 2009 - 03:53 AM.

[Annúgil]

Pretty sure she gave blanket permission to use her stuff in other mods (a lot do so already). Just make sure it isn't already installed, which should be fairly easy with FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME.

I think I'll ask regardless

You would probably do this by stacking effects by duration in the .spl file for the skald song. For example, effect 1 might give +1 hit for duration 1-3600, effect 2 might give +1 hit/dam for 3601-7200, effect 3 giving +2 for 7201... etc. But I'm just guessing without looking at it.

Edit: effects after the first would have to be delayed/duration rather than just duration.

Thanks! I'll try it out.

Also, I thought bardsong was hardcoded to stop if the bard performs any actions besides walking and singing, but maybe not for skalds.

I was thinking that since it works in IWDII(http://www.gamebansh...ngeringsong.php) it might be possible to implement in BG2 as well.


One of the abilities I've mentioned, shield bash, would it be possible to create that? I'm pretty sure you can't restrict special attacks to certain weapons...and the animation will be problematic, right?

Edited by Annúgil, 25 September 2009 - 04:19 AM.

[vilkacis]

What do you think about the four HLA paths?

I think it's pretty cool. The game already does something similar with some HLAs (greater whirlwind attack requires the original WWA), so it wouldn't look out of place, either.

shield bash

@vGur was working on allowing medium shields to be used as weapons here, but it's not officially released yet. There's a test verson a few posts down, though. Check it out.

[Annúgil]

I think it's pretty cool. The game already does something similar with some HLAs (greater whirlwind attack requires the original WWA), so it wouldn't look out of place, either.

The idea is Caedwyr's actually Any suggestions about the 4th tree?

@vGur was working on allowing medium shields to be used as weapons here, but it's not officially released yet. There's a test verson a few posts down, though. Check it out.

Thanks! I will contact @vGur.

[vilkacis]

Any suggestions about the 4th tree?

There are only so many different kinds of effects in the game - you've already covered buffs, debuffs and some kind of attack, so there's not much left. Summoning, perhaps - something like the "Horn of Valhalla"?

[Annúgil]

Any suggestions about the 4th tree?

There are only so many different kinds of effects in the game - you've already covered buffs, debuffs and some kind of attack, so there's not much left. Summoning, perhaps - something like the "Horn of Valhalla"?

Hm, I'm not sure. Then again, it does seem very fitting. I'll definitely consider that. Summoning famed warriors from the afterlife sounds nice. Though I'd need think it over. Thanks!

One more idea that crossed my mind: a tree that's focued on various passive effects. But your idea sounds more original.

By the way, do you know where I could download DLTCEP? Gibberlings Three forum seems offline for week now :/

I plan to start work on the preliminary version of this kit. Without bells & whistles for now (HLAs, unique abilites etc.).

Edited by Annúgil, 26 September 2009 - 07:13 AM.

[Miloch]

Summoning famed warriors from the afterlife sounds nice.

Call Draugr would be pretty cool.

By the way, do you know where I could download DLTCEP? Gibberlings Three forum seems offline for week now

Can probably get an older version at least from sourceforge.

[Annúgil]

Call Draugr would be pretty cool.

Absolutely brilliant idea! Fits the image of this kit perfectly. So it's decided, 4th tree will be focused on calling Draugrs.

But since they most likely wouldn't be exactly happy with the skald summoning them, perhaps they should work somewhat similiar to the summon fiend spell (the draugr can turn on you). Or implement something similar to the "battle of the wits" (which happens when a mage summons an elemental).

About their apperance - which model you think would be best to represent them?

Can probably get an older version at least from sourceforge.

Thank, I've found it. Starting the work now.

[Miloch]

But since they most likely wouldn't be exactly happy with the skald summoning them, perhaps they should work somewhat similiar to the summon fiend spell (the draugr can turn on you). Or implement something similar to the "battle of the wits" (which happens when a mage summons an elemental).

Aye, indeed. The way I'd see it is they'd attack any enemies of the skald once summoned, then if they survived that battle, attack the skald and his/her party. Pretty easy to implement via scripting, once you get to that point .

Edit:

About their apperance - which model you think would be best to represent them?

I'd use a ghoul/ghast, probably recoloured to be either dark or quite light (explanation in that wiki link of that). In abilities, however, they're more like vampires almost, though perhaps not quite as smart. Wrote a paper on these dudes actually... how the ancient Norse draugar legends may have influenced (or created even) the eastern European vampire legends. But I suppose that wanders a bit far afield .

Edited by Miloch, 27 September 2009 - 02:06 AM.

[Annúgil]

Aye, indeed. The way I'd see it is they'd attack any enemies of the skald once summoned, then if they survived that battle, attack the skald and his/her party. Pretty easy to implement via scripting, once you get to that point .

Sounds good! What do you think about "battle of wits" effect? Though I'm guessing only martial prowess could impress the draugrs.

I'd use a ghoul/ghast, probably recoloured to be either dark or quite light (explanation in that wiki link of that). In abilities, however, they're more like vampires almost, though perhaps not quite as smart. Wrote a paper on these dudes actually... how the ancient Norse draugar legends may have influenced (or created even) the eastern European vampire legends. But I suppose that wanders a bit far afield .

Hm, I'd actually read that with great intrest

Ghoul/ghast sounds good - but shouldn't they have some form of armour/weaponry on them?

As far as their abilities are concerned: susceptibility to fire, level drain (vampire ability), immunity to normal weapons...
The only way to kill them was supposed to be decapitation, though how would I represent that?

Many thanks by the way, this idea is brilliant like I've said

[Miloch]

Sounds good! What do you think about "battle of wits" effect? Though I'm guessing only martial prowess could impress the draugrs.

They might have something quite similar to skald-song, or perhaps jester-song. Some were known to recite poetry that would afflict the living. Other than that, they didn't really talk much.

Hm, I'd actually read that with great intrest

Think I still have it online somewhere - here it is. The first part is quite technical, but it gets into some Norse saga material later on.

Ghoul/ghast sounds good - but shouldn't they have some form of armour/weaponry on them?

They'd probably have whatever they died with. As a lot of them were warriors (berserkers even), that'd probably include armour (chainmail typically) and a weapon. I suppose you could even use a recoloured human avatar, but it might not be clear they're undead. They're the prototypes for Tolkien's (and therefore DnD's) barrow wights, which don't have specific avatars but use the ghoul animation.

As far as their abilities are concerned: susceptibility to fire, level drain (vampire ability), immunity to normal weapons... The only way to kill them was supposed to be decapitation, though how would I represent that?

I guess they'd be something like vampires there. Maybe they can only be killed by a critical hit and/or a slashing weapon. All that could be scripted probably. Also, anyone killed by a draugr probably has a good chance to come back as one, sort of like lycanthropy. They'd probably have a strength of at least 20 or higher, since they could pick up humanoids and throw them bodily pretty far .

[Annúgil]

They might have something quite similar to skald-song, or perhaps jester-song. Some were known to recite poetry that would afflict the living. Other than that, they didn't really talk much.

I plan to give them a few lines. If that's possible that is ;-P
That "battle of wits" I've referenced previously is the effect which happens once a mage summons an elemental in BG2. Both are stunned for a certain duration and the mage has to make a roll, which determines if he was able to control the elemental. If the mage doesn't make that roll, the elemental attacks the party. I thought this mechanic could be used for Draugr calling too. What do you think?

Think I still have it online somewhere - here it is. The first part is quite technical, but it gets into some Norse saga material later on.

I'll definitely read it in free time, thanks!

They'd probably have whatever they died with. As a lot of them were warriors (berserkers even), that'd probably include armour (chainmail typically) and a weapon. I suppose you could even use a recoloured human avatar, but it might not be clear they're undead. They're the prototypes for Tolkien's (and therefore DnD's) barrow wights, which don't have specific avatars but use the ghoul animation.

Human avatar could work. Going to give it a try. We'll see how it turns out. If it won't give a proper impression, I'll continue looking.

I guess they'd be something like vampires there. Maybe they can only be killed by a critical hit and/or a slashing weapon. All that could be scripted probably. Also, anyone killed by a draugr probably has a good chance to come back as one, sort of like lycanthropy. They'd probably have a strength of at least 20 or higher, since they could pick up humanoids and throw them bodily pretty far .

Yeah, lots of strength, maybe level drain, or spreading diseases...lesser enemies must make a morale check or flee?

Here's the preliminary version of the tree:

1: Call Draugr 2: ? - requires Call Draugr 3: Call several Draugrs. requires 2nd ability . 4. Call Jötunn Draugr requires Call several Draugrs.

But I've been thinking that a tree focused solely on summoning Draugrs might be a bit boring. Maybe it'd be better if the skald could summon various mythical creatures? The question is...which? ;-P


But the way, what do you think about this rough sketch of the Battle abilities tree:

1: BERSERK
Skald gains increased martial prowess (improved THAC0, number of attacks doubled...etc) , but loses access to his song, summoning abilities etc. Or maybe even loses control of his actions?

2: INSCRIBE RUNE - requires Berserk.
Skald inscribes a powerful ancestral rune on his shield, which grants him temporal defensive bonuses. I was thinking it could be: 50% magical resistance, increased AC or maybe even short-term spell reflect.

The only problem is that there's no way for an ability to check if the player has a shield equipped.

Third path, which was previously named "Battle songs" will be renamed to Battle cries.

Edited by Annúgil, 28 September 2009 - 08:34 AM.

[Icendoan]

You could create the shield which would act like a normal (nonmagical) buckler with the added effects. The only danger is having the Skald using a two handed weapon.

Icen

[Annúgil]

You could create the shield which would act like a normal (nonmagical) buckler with the added effects. The only danger is having the Skald using a two handed weapon.

Icen

You mean a shield that would "spawn" in the Skald's weapon slot?

And yeah, I can limit the weapon proficiencies choices, but that doesn't mean players won't pick two-handed swords. And I cannot change the weapon table for bards, right?

[Picollo]

But I've been thinking that a tree focused solely on summoning Draugrs might be a bit boring. Maybe it'd be better if the skald could summon various mythical creatures? The question is...which? ;-P

What about other way of thinking: passive abilities for Draugrs? For example skill that gives ALL summoned Draugrs more HP or better THAC0, etc.
I wonder is it possible?