16 replies to this topic

[Irbis]

Infinity Engine is old, yet it lures many talented and creative people which creates mods for it. the list of all IE games mods is incredible and very suprising - its still growing with each year. yet, no one ever come up with the idea of endless game play. and to be honest i am very tired of waiting for such mod so after years of silence i will write what i am waiting for from all this years.
lets go with BG series.

just look at it. part one, expansion, part two and another expansion, mod that combains b oth of them into one huge game, countless mods with extra maps, quest, spells blablabla. BG is truely HUGE with all the mods and addons but still the core story has been left untouched. evertything that moders can come up with is new side-elements. and after so many years it feels like an old car with hell load of addons. basicly you can have X number of extra content but do you like it or not - you MUST follow the main story which after so many times of being finished is just plain borring and painfull.
from 3 years ive been trying to create a mod suitable for "Sandbox" label but being jut one person i find myself unable to finish it once and for all.

and what do i mean by Sandbox?
basicly, Sandbox game/mod is non-linear and quite offten - endless, which means the game never actualy ends or the main story can be picked whenever you feel like it and doesnt force you to stick to it. a great example of sandbox game was good old Daggerfall, Morrowin or Oblivion (which all are parts of Elder Scroll serie), another great example is underrated Guild 2, or rather young Hinterland. Also the sandbox grandpa from S-F stream was the game Elite which offred endless universe to explore and play. Gothic 1 and 2 can be play as sandbox as it has a big open/ended worlds (especialy Gothic2). the ultimate sandbox games can be found in world of MUDs and Rougelikes such as Dwarf Fortress, ADOM and most of rouglikes.
and why they are so great? lets look for the features:
- there is always something to upgrade/extend (new skils, weapons, house, items ect)
- majority of content is optional and its totaly up to player what he wants to do
- huge part of the deal is exploration which brings the feeling of discovery which brings an increbile joy as one of the strongest thing of humanity is curiosity

ofcourse i am trying to be realistic here and i know that such feature in full cannot be implemented into IE engine or would requaire tons of work and powerfull mod team which would be more like creating a new game rather then expansion. but try to remember...
how cool it is to have a stronghold in BG2. doing quests, improving the stronghold itself
how great is to use Cromwell/Caspenar services and improve you gear
how joyfull it is to collect rare spells and gain new skills

its all about getting better and better or should i say: its all about improving, extending, upgrading.
do you even remember what RPG stands for? RolePlayGame. good story means good game but nothing can surpass the ultimate fun of freedom and what freedom you have being bind with mainstory chains?

now i would like to give you some examples, all of them i stared as a mod but never finished.
1. good old Islander idea:
basicly you had a nice trip on a ship. then the storm came and your ship sinked so you wake up alone on an island, you build you house, forge your weapons, armors. hunt for animals and resources, trade skins, or other stuff with local tribe and stuff. imagine yourself being like Robinson Crusoe. the end of the game would be leaving the island and returning to mainland somehow.

2. Young wizard/hunter/priest
you come to village/ small town and buy/create your house. you protect the city, learn new spells/hunting tricks, you sell your products, brew potions, improve your house, hire mercineries, hunt for bandits, and stuff. game ends when you become the mayor of the city ort after reaching point "X" (which can be enything, from a exact level or achivement)

3.Trader sim
you travel from town to town making money, trading items, hireing guards, buyng storagehouse, establishing new trade routes, exploring and stuff the mod would end as soon as you reach X amount of gold, become a traders emperror or something

4. Dwarf Mines
you are a young dwarf which obtained a map of new resourcefull location full of gold, gems nad/or mithril so you start an underground mine, new dwarf arives, new tunnels are being mined, you hire blacksmiths, jewelers, goldsmiths and others, you hire warriors, train them and so you finaly become a new dwarf king

5. Defence style sanbox
basicly like most TowerDefence/defence flash games offers it all about defending your "base" from incomming waves of enamies when meanwhile you improve you base, guards, walls, traps and all that. its all about surviving as long as you can (check Left 4 Dead).


after all this examples i belive you should understand what iam looking for and what IE modding world totaly miss and lacks of. ofcourse i am not that naive - this idea(s) are plain and old as computer games itself and i know that the reason - why no one made something like this - is obvious and solid.
which is: any of this ideas would need to be a Total Convensions and even if not - would require hell load of people from all types of modding. scripting, codding, GFX artists - everything and everyone.
so why do i waste my breath saying all this? because after seeing so many incredible mods and few of them could be a standalone games, i simply cant imagine why no one would give ti a try with this.
and i am dreaming. dreaming about things i cannot have.
or do i...?


sorry for typos. english is not my main and i am doing my best to make my text readibly. if i failed hard - sorry.

Irbis

[Kuugen]

while it sounds good, four particular words come to mind, reading this

"massive amounts of coding"

and i think thats the point the whole thing will fail at. while it sounds nice in theory i seriously doubt that another partial or even total conversion will be made.

[Irbis]

coding is just a part of the deal. i could succesfuly make area bitmaps, items, spells, npc, dialogs. my favorite which would be wizard adept and islander idea can be worked from dialoges and item exchanges.
forging items is not more difficult then cromwel or caspenar script and spells/abilites progression can can belevel based.
for example:

-herbalism:
takes around 20-40 second after which you gain some herbs (which then you can mix into potions with help of "Culdron NPC")
-foraging:
takes about 20-30seconds. after which you gain some berries, (which you can be a part of cooking)
-for meat you would hunt deers, bears, wild cats ect
-for wood you use woodcutting skill which results as a mount X of logs/branches for example.
-getting stone work after clicking on stone with action marker so you get few stones per use.
-same with iron/mithril ore
-anvil/forge/oven and all other stuff used can be created with needed amount os resurces and are visible as invisible npc placed on regarding thing(Forge NPC placed on forge spot and so on)

i can type like this all day really. ive been working on script(script in terms of system/text - not code) for over 3 years and to be honet i have everything writen down in text file.
its just two things that stops me from creating this mod:
1. i am to lazy to finish this by myself
2. creators almost never play their own creation... so i prefer someone else to make it so i can remain as a "player".


EDIT:
just wanted to add that i know how to work this thing out without to much of problems but i belive i am not the hottest mind around here so if i know how to make things right - someone else knows that too.
and as far as my modding knowledge goes - this is not THAT hard to code really... its just that - the population of sandbox lovers is incredibly small and a most young players dont know what that is in general!

Edited by Irbis, 25 August 2009 - 11:03 AM.

[theacefes]

while it sounds good, four particular words come to mind, reading this

"massive amounts of coding"

and i think thats the point the whole thing will fail at. while it sounds nice in theory i seriously doubt that another partial or even total conversion will be made.

Geez thanks for your support, dude.
*grumble*
We're in alpha.

Edited by theacefes, 25 August 2009 - 02:31 PM.

[Kuugen]

while it sounds good, four particular words come to mind, reading this

"massive amounts of coding"

and i think thats the point the whole thing will fail at. while it sounds nice in theory i seriously doubt that another partial or even total conversion will be made.

Geez thanks for your support, dude.
*grumble*
We're in alpha.

I saw how far the other TC/PC went and how long they are on-going now. I honestly do not see the appeal in a TC/PC so don't be offended but until i see an actual playable version with at least the same amount of content the first three chapters of BG1 had ( and yes, this involves stuff you can do on the side ) i'm not going to say "oh hey, nice."
because such things tend to end where they begin. with plans.

I saw silmarillion and RtW start and well, stop where they are now.


to the sandbox guy, i mean Irbis

you are aware that the very genre of sandbox games more or less died out. I can say, full knowing how hard that sounds, with good reason. I, personally, find sandbox games infinitely boring. I played a few in my youth ( well. almost youth. I'm only 22 ) and I never managed to get into it, really.

what you propose would make a nice ADDITION but not a good PC/TC. After all, this is still baldurs gate, not Baldurs Sim's.

[theacefes]

Not offended. You're entitled to your own opinions, though I'd recommend looking stuff up before condemning other modders to fail.

[leahnkain]

Kuugan, look at Classic Adventures. It has the most content and is constantly being updated and expanded. It has as much content as IWD.

[Kaeloree]

Silmarillion is still in progress, there's just no public evidence of it. RtW isn't a total conversion, as well, and it's not stopped either--just on hold.

These things take time, but that doesn't mean you should write them off.

[Azkyroth]

RtW isn't a total conversion, as well, and it's not stopped either--just on hold.

These things take time, but that doesn't mean you should write them off.

Same for [Insert catchy title for what I've been referring to simply by it's primary new and only joinable NPC, Arkalian, here], which isn't a partial conversion by any means, but approaches that league in terms of ambition.

Although, it's not really "sandbox" at all. Personally, I am probably not likely to play such a game because I'm more attracted to the story anyway, but I would suggest that a good model to look to would be Fallout 2, which allows you to continue playing, if you choose, after completing the main storyline (I believe there is a cutoff, after a certain amount of game time, but it's pretty generous - four game years, something like that?). Unless you're hell-bent on ditching the BG2 plotline altogether, adding some of the open-ended features you describe, some more side quests, and the ability to return to the worldmap and/or travel between worldmaps after beating Melissan, if you choose to remain mortal, would be a useful angle for implementing some of this kind of functionality/feel.

Edited by Azkyroth, 25 August 2009 - 10:38 PM.

[Irbis]

you are aware that the very genre of sandbox games more or less died out. I can say, full knowing how hard that sounds, with good reason. I, personally, find sandbox games infinitely boring. I played a few in my youth ( well. almost youth. I'm only 22 ) and I never managed to get into it, really.

what you propose would make a nice ADDITION but not a good PC/TC. After all, this is still baldurs gate, not Baldurs Sim's.

to be honest i must disagree. 90% of current MMORPG are more or less sanbox, the gameplay is never ending, world is open ended, gameplay never stops. and how incredible MMOs are i think i dont need to prove. Sanbox are like pen and paper RPGs from old days - no one order you or force to go anywhere and where you gone go or what you gone do i totaly up to you. look at Ultima On line which is the biggest and most epic sample of sanbox rpg, look at the player base and the game lifespan. and now imagine a Ultima On line game withouth the "on line part". this is what i am talking about. Sandbox games are incredinle popular, its just the "off line" sandbox which arent that popular but its basicly because their are rarely being made - not because people wont play them. on line games are like gold mine - the cash flow is almost never ending and constant when singiel player games are instant but one timed in terms of money gain. thats why most game makers tries to remain mainstream with singiel player games in fear of being rejected. but some others are not affraid and so we have elder scroll serie (for example) and as you may notice - players actualy love it! ofcourse the main story can be finished in a moment but the true beauty of that games are side-quests and all the non-mainstream content. they are based on the aditional content when main story works just like an excuse to make them. so the catch is to put the ultimate goal somewhere faaaaaaar away or to put it anywhere so the player can actualy finish the game without much of a hassle.
and pay attention also that i am just couple of years older then you so age doesnt play a high role here (i am 25yo).
i dont know if you made any mod before but the worst part about big projects is not the actual coding but the script for the mod itself. to have it all writen down clean holeless. if you have everything sorted you just follow the "plan" which ofcourse - takes some time to finish but its ultimatly easier and less chaotic in diffrence to creating the root script.

this really can be done. and you need mans power not only for the work speed but mostly for the solo reason of having someone else working with you.
creating mods, even the smallest one can be incredibly painfull if you do it alone. and lazzyness and boredom is a common sickness here.

[leahnkain]

Maybe CA can offer a home to some of your ideas. Why don't you try out CA and after you get a feel for CA drop me a PM.

[Irbis]

gladly but what CA stands for? havent heard this shortcut before

Edited by Irbis, 26 August 2009 - 08:31 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

gladly but what CA stands for? havent heard this shortcut before

Classic Adventures. Home pages, and Forums.

It's total conversion mod, so you start actually at level 1, from a town that needs your help, and the story takes of from there... it needs to have a clean BGII:SoA&ToB game patched to v(2.5.)26498, and the CA 0.50 mod...

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 26 August 2009 - 09:22 AM.

[Irbis]

ahhh splendid! i will try it out for sure!
thank you Jarno for the links and overview!

[minotaur_in_maze]

The thing you have to understand is that modding ~ANY mod, with the very possible exception of one day NPCs, and sometimes not even THEN~ oftimes takes YEARS.

The reason?

Most modders do this as a hobby. I can't think of Any of them, offhand, who make a living modding (though it might be possible that some work in computer related fields) and as such they have work, home, families and so on.

And the content that IS out there comes from modders who know what they are doing, unlike the more braindead types like myself who lurk around the edges pissing people off.

Fer instance:

Three mods, just grabbing at random:

Uhm...

Darkest Day
Return to trademeet
And something I have heard rumors of for years called The Third Way.

Each of these By Itself is a Major change to BG2

Darkest Day is a major sort of add on with quests, npcs and so on.
Return to tradmeet is (Was, it vanished quite some time ago, possibly never to return) a complete conversion.
And Third Way was a major addition that I hear allowed for a third way to get to spellhold - one that involved new quests and such to get the knights to help ya.

Each of these required completely new areas, voicings, npcs scripts, items and coding - lots and lots of coding.

Even for people who do this as a labor of love, we are talking Months of nights and weekends.

So to do what you are suggesting, it might be easier for everyone in modding to get together and create an Entirely New Game (Uhm, if ya do, Include me. I can't do much but I make great coffee!) from scratch and from the ground up.

Not impossible, but if you think waiting for new MODS is long....

Have you ever tried a Total Conversion or an override (BTB BP ect) that links the games all together?

MiM

[Jarno Mikkola]

Have you ever tried a Total Conversion or an override (BTB BP ect) that links the games all together?

BTB?? That must be BGT, as in Baldur's Gate Trilogy...
Or it could refer to BWP...

~ANY mod, with the very possible exception of one day NPCs, and sometimes not even THEN~ oftimes takes YEARS.

Well, it doesn't really take years to make the content, it just takes years to learn how to make it (for us less inclined to that sort of things), and make it well.

The Darkest Day, was actually mod for the BG2:SoA, as a non official add on, so it didn't actually first work with the BG2:ToB even, of course it was then made to work with teh ToB, but still...

[Thanatos.]

Make the mod, plz.