36 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

I gotta get back to work on TBH for a few days, but here's something I just discovered that's a huge mess, and I'd like to know what you all think. Please, if you have an opinion on the subject, argue amongst yourselves and when I can come back we can count the bodies.

Okay.

A LOT of bad screwy things can happen if you belong to both the Godsmen and the Anarchists, and then you go try to join another faction. For example, if you then try to join the Sensates, you'll have responses for -both- "I want to renounce the Godsmen" and "I want to renounce... another faction." (meaning the Anarchists). If you say that you want to renounce one, you do so and you become a Sensate but it doesn't kick you out of the other. This isn't so bad if you renounce being a Godsman, because you're supposed to be able to belong to the Anarchists and at least one other faction. But if you say "I renounce being an Anarchist", it looks to me like, yes, you can belong to -both- the Godsmen and the Sensates at the same time. Definitely, definitely not intended.

I'm probably gonna have to go through every faction leader and deal with that possibility in a crapload of places. Ugh, ugh, ugh.

EDIT: Oh God is this going to be an ugly fix. Picture this: You're an anarchist. You've infiltrated the Godsmen, the Dustmen and the Xaositects. Now you go to the Sensates, and you tell them you want to renounce the Anarchists. You are now simultaneously a Godsman, a Dustman, a Xaositect and a Sensate, -without- belonging to the Anarchists! *sob*

The Sensates are actually the easy ones. If you infiltrate them for the anarchists, you're not REALLY a Sensate (i.e., Join_Sensates doesn't get set to 1). It's essentially the same thing as if you told Splinter you were previously a Sensate and get the partial benefits, without getting Sensory Touch and all that. But when you infiltrate the Xaositects or the Dustmen, you really -do- become one, at least as far as important variables go, though as a fake Dustman you don't get the Dead Truce. And obviously you can't become an Anarchist without already being a real Godsman. Ugh ugh ugh.

(Note in what I described about being in all 4 of the other factions at once, you -would- also be a real Sensate with Sensory Touch and everything )

So as fixes go, this becomes tremendously ugly. For this to make sense at all, when you renounce being an Anarchist, you'd pretty much have to renounce all the factions you'd infiltrated as well, which is going to be a BEAR to code all the possible permutations for all the other faction heads. Either that, or we make it so you can only infiltrate one faction at a time as an Anarchist. I actually think that makes more sense... you may privately be an anarchist, but publicly everyone should know about the one you've infiltrated and a new one shouldn't accept you unless you've dumped your other public faction. Make sense? That'll be a bear to code too, but. Anyways. What do you all think?

Please duke it out amongst yourselves, as I'm probably gonna have to exile myself for a few days to get any real work done.

Qwinn

[Daulmakan]

So as fixes go, this becomes tremendously ugly. For this to make sense at all, when you renounce being an Anarchist, you'd pretty much have to renounce all the factions you'd infiltrated as well, which is going to be a BEAR to code all the possible permutations for all the other faction heads. Either that, or we make it so you can only infiltrate one faction at a time as an Anarchist. I actually think that makes more sense... you may privately be an anarchist, but publicly everyone should know about the one you've infiltrated and a new one shouldn't accept you unless you've dumped your other public faction. Make sense? That'll be a bear to code too, but. Anyways. What do you all think?

I know it means more work for you, but I prefer the first option.

I actually never tried infiltrating factions. Scofflaw always seemed to picky for me with the right choices for him to accept you. I guess it's time to give that a try.

[Tassadar88]

Yep, despite having played PST a good number of times, I actually never tried to be an Anarchist. Gotta try it one of these days

[Qwinn]

*peeks in*

Lemme try to illustrate just how odd the situation is.

I know it means more work for you, but I prefer the first option.

Okay. Let's say we go with this, and we try to keep the idea that, if you are an Anarchist, you can infiltrate all the other factions simultaneously. (I'm not opposed to the idea, I'm just not sure how to eliminate the above exploits and still have it work.)

So let's say you became a Godsman, and then an Anarchist. Now you go to Barking Wilder. It checks if you are in another faction, and detects both Godsman and Anarchist. As it stands, you will get lines saying:

1. "I'm already a member of the Godsmen, but..."
2. "I'm already a member of the Anarchists, but..."

Choose either one, and you get to choose from these lines:

1. "Join ready the Xaositects am I. Loyalty none faction old I have Godsmen."
2. "Join ready the Xaositects am I. Loyalty none faction old I have Anarchists."
3. Lie to infiltrate Chaosmen for Anarchists: "Join ready the Xaositects am I. Loyalty none faction old I have."

So... that means it's possible for the conversation to go like this:

"I'm already a member of the Godsmen, but..."

"Join ready the Xaositects am I. Loyalty none faction old I have Anarchists."

And if you do that... which means you admitted to Wilder that you're a Godsman but then you renounced the Anarchists instead... you are then still a Godsman, and also a full fledged Xaositect, and no longer an Anarchist.

So my question is, -how- do you avoid this? If you are a Godsman/Anarchist, which of the above options do you eliminate, and if you don't, then what do you do to prevent your admitting you're a Godsman and yet let him accept you without renouncing it? And even if you don't admit you were a Godsman, how do you prevent the exploit of becoming both a Godsman and a Xaositect at the same time, without infiltrating?

But if we don't, if we keep "infiltrate as many as you want if you're an anarchist", then in the above scenario, if you renounce Godsman, then you're a Xaositect/Anarchist, which is fine. If you infiltrate, then you're all 3, but still an Anarchist so it's okay cause we've stipulated you can infiltrate as many as you want as long as you're an anarchist. But if you renounce the Anarchists for real... then yeah, there's no other way to do it, I have to do the 12 or so permutations required to dump you from any factions you've previously infiltrated before you can join the new one. And this is going to have to happen silently, because I'm not about to create all the new dialogue lines required to inform the player of this (along with translations into 4-5 languages for each of them).

Even then, though, you still have the problem of "Well, I'm already a Godsman", "Oh, alright, I renounce the Anarchists" conversational thread.

And the more I think about it, the "infiltrate only one at a time" idea doesn't actually make it much easier. Maybe 10% easier at best.

Ugh.

Someone, please, think of an easier way to deal with this. Please.

Okay, back to work. Headache. Headache...

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 06 July 2009 - 07:15 AM.

[Daulmakan]

I think I understand the dilemma. The easiest thing might be making it so that if TNO was an anarchist, he wouldn't admit it to any other faction, ever. He would just renounce one that he infiltrated. While this might sound a bit restrictive, the Anarchists have such draconian entry requirements that it doesn't sound unreasonable that you won't renounce them after going through all that. That way you could still infiltrate all the other factions. That's my first suggestion.

Alternatively, could it be possible to enable renouncing the anarchists only by talking to Scofflaw and telling him specifically this? (if there's already a similar line, you wouldn't have to add more dialogue). He would boot you out of the print shop for good and all the variables pointing to you being an Anarchist would be removed. You would also cease to be a member of all the factions you infiltrated for them, as it's implied that you didn't care about them and only did it for the Anarchists. This way would enable you to join for real another faction previously not infiltrated. So for example, if you wanted to infiltrate some of the factions for the anarchists but end the game as a dustman (just to say one) you could do it. Is this feasible?

[Qwinn]

That's not a bad idea, actually. Particularly because I've already fix/restored another way to leave the Anarchists for good, telling Corvus about the hit on Vorten. And yes, you can also get Scofflaw to boot you pretty easily by annoying him.

And I agree it makes sense that you wouldn't just randomly go around admitting to other faction heads that you're an Anarchist. That'd be pretty dumb. (And in the Sensate's case, this is made explicit... you say "I belong to... uh... another faction" rather than "Anarchist").

So I'm kinda liking this idea in general, except that I still have to code up a dozen permutations of booting you from infiltrated factions when you get booted from the Anarchists via talking to either Corvus or Scofflaw. But I'm starting to think there's simply no way around that. At least this way I'd have to deal with it in fewer places.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 06 July 2009 - 07:59 AM.

[Qwinn]

Hmm, actually, your first suggestion included that you can only renounce one you've infiltrated. Did you mean you can do that OR further infiltrate yet another one?

If it's the former, if you have to trade off infiltrated ones, then that would actually be a lot easier. Because then, when you got booted from the anarchists, you could -still- belong to the last one you'd infiltrated. So if you were in the Godsman and Anarchists, and you got booted from Anarchists, you're still a Godsman. If you were Godsman/Anarchist, and you went to sign up with the Xaositects, you'd have to be booted from Godsmen first... and then if you got booted from Anarchists, you'd remain a Xaositect.

Is this what you meant? Or were you trying to keep being able to infiltrate more than one faction at a time?

Qwinn

[Daulmakan]

Sorry, should've been more clear. I meant further infiltrate another one, I favor the "infiltrate as many as you want if you're an anarchist" thing if possible. Just that renouncing the anarchists for real in conversation with another another faction shouldn't be an option.

[Qwinn]

So you're saying that conversation with Barking Wilder should go like this:

. "I'm already a member of the Godsmen, but..."

Admitting to being an Anarchist is removed. And if you select that (there is also the "Never mind, I won't turn stag on them." option), then you get:

1. "Join ready the Xaositects am I. Loyalty none faction old I have Godsmen."
2. Lie to infiltrate Chaosmen for Anarchists: "Join ready the Xaositects am I. Loyalty none faction old I have."

Right? If you pick 1, then you trade Godsmen for Xaositect, while still being an Anarchist. If you pick 2, then you're an Anarchist who is still infiltrating both Godsmen and Xaositect.

Then, when you are kicked out by either talking to Corvus or Scofflaw, that's when we have to do our dozen+ permutations to kick you out of any factions you've infiltrated.

Well, lesse, there might be an exception. Like I said, you never actually join the Sensates even when you infiltrate. I think I'll have to leave that one "on" even if you are booted from the Anarchists. It's plot critical to be able to enter the sensoriums, so I can't really take that away. So if you've infiltrated the Sensates as an Anarchist, quitting being an Anarchist doesn't remove that infiltration, it stays "on" just as if you'd just gotten sensorium permission the other way, by talking to Aelwyn and finding out you'd been one before. That lowers the complexity a good deal, at least. I don't -think- that'll pose any dialogue incongruities, but I'll double check.

So that leaves the Dustmen as the only other real question. I had just decided to restore the orphaned faction check when Emoric first gives you the Dustman line of quests, but if that's going to turn this uglier I may just skip that. The actual problem is when you actually become a Dustman after doing all the quests. There is no choice regarding renouncing an old faction there, it's done silently and automatically when you say that yes, you want to join the Dustmen. If I leave it that way, then the question is, is it automatically considered an additional infiltration if you're an Anarchist, regardless of how many other factions you've infiltrated? I suppose that would make most sense. Hmm. I may have to restore Emoric's orphaned faction check -there-, rather than at the beginning, or maybe both, to get this working properly.

Alright. REALLY leaving to get some work done now. Plenty for folks to chew on now, if anyone's got any other suggestions.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 06 July 2009 - 10:13 AM.

[macabroid]

Planescape 3rd edition rules clearly state:

A character may only be a member of one faction at a time and may only take feats from one faction - if for some reason a character should end up a member of two factions (such as if they are a spy), only one membership counts for purposes of feat and prestige class selection. Furthermore, even if a character is a member of a faction, they aren't considered a true member of a faction unless they back up that membership with belief. A DM is in their right to restrict faction membership or abilities based on a character's actions, and provide repercussions for those that go against the grain in a faction. Should a character lose membership in a faction, or otherwise indicate to the DM that their character has completely lost faith in the ideals of the faction, any feats or abilities granted by prestige classes that are indicated to be Faction-Dependent cease to function. Other class features, such as base attack and increased saving throws, remain. The character may regain lost abilities by rejoining the faction (almost always a difficult process) or joining another faction that also offers those abilities.

So, no Dead Truce or Sensory Touch for Anarchist infiltrators. Of course, this is a 3rd edition, not 2nd, but I doubt there will be differences on this matter.

Also, I'm strongly against multi-faction infiltration:

1. As you may see before, rules tell about "a member of two factions". They don't even regard the case when you are member of more than two.

2. Anarchist's infiltrator is supposed to be as ortodox member of faction he infiltrated as possible. If he draws more suspicion by behaving as Xaositect\Godsman\Dustman multifaction abomination, he is a bad Anarchist and spoils the mere fact of infiltration.

3. Faction membership is a public information, double public membership is against the laws of any faction.

4. There are some hints that public faction membership is identified by some kind of signs wearing on cloths, that could be seen by anyone. For example, Able Ponder-Thought wears such sign, and Keldor speaks of "a more favorable reaction from most folks you'll meet on the street", that makes me suggest that the reaction of people from Clerk's Ward was supposed to change by mere fact of Godsmen membership, but on a later stages developers just forgotten to implement it.

So, IMHO, the matter is quite simple. You may be a public member of only one faction. You may be an anarchist infiltrator, but only to one faction at the same time. If while changing factions you renounce your public faction, you remain anarchist. If you renounce anarchists, you can't be anarchist any more.

Edited by macabroid, 06 July 2009 - 02:28 PM.

[scient]

Planescape 3rd edition rules clearly state:

A character may only be a member of one faction at a time and may only take feats from one faction - if for some reason a character should end up a member of two factions (such as if they are a spy), only one membership counts for purposes of feat and prestige class selection. Furthermore, even if a character is a member of a faction, they aren't considered a true member of a faction unless they back up that membership with belief. A DM is in their right to restrict faction membership or abilities based on a character's actions, and provide repercussions for those that go against the grain in a faction. Should a character lose membership in a faction, or otherwise indicate to the DM that their character has completely lost faith in the ideals of the faction, any feats or abilities granted by prestige classes that are indicated to be Faction-Dependent cease to function. Other class features, such as base attack and increased saving throws, remain. The character may regain lost abilities by rejoining the faction (almost always a difficult process) or joining another faction that also offers those abilities.

So, no Dead Truce or Sensory Touch for Anarchist infiltrators. Of course, this is a 3rd edition, not 2nd, but I doubt there will be differences on this matter.

Also, I'm strongly against multi-faction infiltration:

1. As you may see before, rules tell about "a member of two factions". They don't even regard the case when you are member of more than two.

2. Anarchist's infiltrator is supposed to be as ortodox member of faction he infiltrated as possible. If he draws more suspicion by behaving as Xaositect\Godsman\Dustman multifaction abomination, he is a bad Anarchist and spoils the mere fact of infiltration.

3. Faction membership is a public information, double public membership is against the laws of any faction.

4. There are some hints that public faction membership is identified by some kind of signs wearing on cloths, that could be seen by anyone. For example, Able Ponder-Thought wears such sign, and Keldor speaks of "a more favorable reaction from most folks you'll meet on the street", that makes me suggest that the reaction of people from Clerk's Ward was supposed to change by mere fact of Godsmen membership, but on a later stages developers just forgotten to implement it.

So, IMHO, the matter is quite simple. You may be a public member of only one faction. You may be an anarchist infiltrator, but only to one faction at the same time. If while changing factions you renounce your public faction, you remain anarchist. If you renounce anarchists, you can't be anarchist any more.

+1

This seems to make the most sense. Why should being an Anarchist give you the ability to join more than one faction when you can't normally? It's not like the guild heads know you're an Anarchist so I don't see why they'd agree to let you join say Godsmen if you're already a Dustman infiltrator for Anarchists. They'd know you're a Dustman and would only let you join if you renounced membership to them. Then you'd become infiltrator for whatever new faction you joined.

Qwinn, what's the difference between "Join_Chaosmen" and "Join_Chaosmen_2"? I've already added in check for "Join_Chaosmen_2" as part of item usability refresh, I always thought it was odd that Chaosmen had extra global compared to other factions.

Oh another thing, inside your profile what happens to Faction display when you join more than one?

Edited by scient, 06 July 2009 - 08:20 PM.

[Qwinn]

Yeah. Daulmakan (or anyone else), if you want to make an argument for why the faction heads would tolerate and accept you infiltrating multiple factions without making a fuss when they wouldn't tolerate it if you were really joining them, go for it. But macabroid's argument seems pretty compelling to me. Never mind the notion of game balance... if Anarchist would let you get the benefits of ALL factions at once, why would you ever be anything else once you knew this to be true?

Qwinn, what's the difference between "Join_Chaosmen" and "Join_Chaosmen_2"? I've already added in check for "Join_Chaosmen_2" as part of item usability refresh, I always thought it was odd that Chaosmen had extra global compared to other factions.

I'd take that check out. In Barking Wilder's dialogue, if you're REALLY chaotic and already a Chaosman, you can ask him to join the Chaosmen again even though you already are one. Join_Chaosmen_2 is just a dialogue variable used so that you can't do that bit twice. It really doesn't have anything to do with whether you are a member.

However, as far as item usability, be aware that you are a Chaosman if the Join_Chaosmen variable is set to 1 OR to 3. If it's set to 3, you're actually the factol of the faction. Most other factions you only really belong to if their Join_ variable is set to 1... except Godsmen (6) or Xaositects (1 or 3).

Oh another thing, inside your profile what happens to Faction display when you join more than one?

Yeah, I haven't tried it to see yet. But when you belong to Godsmen and then join the Anarchists, I know it stays showing as Godsmen. What happens if you do multiples the way I've outlined? I'm not sure.

Qwinn

[ghostdog]

I think you should be able to join only one faction OR infiltrate only one of the other factions while being an anarchist. Since renouncing the anarchists out in the open doesn't seem realistic, I think the dialog options should be something like :

1. "Join ready the Xaositects am I. Loyalty none faction old I have." (renounce all other factions)
3. Lie to infiltrate Chaosmen for Anarchists: "Join ready the Xaositects am I. Loyalty none faction old I have."

Edited by ghostdog, 07 July 2009 - 02:22 AM.

[Qwinn]

Just as a reminder, in case anyone missed my pointing this out above:

If we go with only one infiltration at a time (which I'm now leaning strongly toward), please be aware that the Sensates will pretty much have to remain an exception. Once you've infiltrated the Sensates for the Anarchists, you will have access to the sensoriums and whatnot forever, regardless of whatever else happens regarding your faction status. It's plot critical so I can't permanently cut off access. Chalk it up to overly lax security measures on Splinter's part. In essence infiltrating the Sensates doesn't really make you a faction member anyway... I'm pretty sure it doesn't make the faction logo appear on your character sheet, for example, the way others do. It does and will continue to behave precisely the same as getting access to Sensate stuff via Aelwyn, except that via Aelwyn you still have the option to become a -real- Sensate, whereas if you infiltrated as an Anarchist you'll never get that opportunity again.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 07 July 2009 - 02:36 AM.

[Qwinn]

Hmmmmmmm.

I just realized something. I checked Splinter to see what happens if, having nothing to do with Anarchists, you renounce Sensate membership. That is, what if I become a real Sensate, then go over to Keldor and renounce being a Sensate to become a Godsman. How does Splinter react if you go back to him?

The answer is: He doesn't. In any way. You've still got Sensate Access which you can get the other various ways already mentioned, and you can't lose that. But he doesn't even mention your being a previous Sensate in dialogue.

So really, the thing about infiltrating the Sensates being an "exception" isn't really true. You can -really- join and leave the Sensates and it doesn't really behave any differently. So we could say that for all intents and purposes you -are- evicted from the Sensates when you join another faction, but it doesn't actually -matter- in any way.

So, really, to make it consistent with the other factions, I should make it so Join_Sensates -does- get set to 1 when you infiltrate the Sensates for the anarchists. Just don't grant Sensory Touch, the way infiltrating Dustmen doesn't grant the Dead Truce. This will make the logo appear on your profile (which it should, it does for the others) and it will make you have to renounce that Sensate membership if you try to switch to/infiltrate a different faction. But, just as if you had renounced being a REAL Sensate, it doesn't make any difference as far as your access to the sensoriums goes.

The only possible sticking point there is, if the dialogue action "ApplySpell(Protagonist, SPECIAL_REMOVE_SENSORY_TOUCH)" is applied to a TNO that doesn't -have- Sensory Touch to begin with, does it blow up? I can account for that if necessary, but it'd be a hell of a lot easier if attempting to remove it when it isn't there just results in nothing happening.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 07 July 2009 - 03:28 AM.

[Qwinn]

Okay, I just looked around, and YES, even with everything else aside, I should treat the fact that being a Sensate doesn't set Join_Sensates to 1 as a bug. There's several places where dialogues check if you're a sensate, and if having infiltrated as an anarchist doesn't set that variable, then you get very odd situations.

For example, Aelwyn asks if you're a Sensate. You get only one reply, "Yes", or "No.". The way it stands, if you infiltrated the Sensates for the Anarchists, your only option is to reply "No."

Same with Grace in your party. You get to ask her "Can I join the Sensates" if Join_Sensates isn't 1... which means, if you're currently infiltrating the Sensates, you still get to ask her "Can I join them?" Hurr Durr.


I don't think you ought to be forced to be the worst spy in the Planes, admitting to everyone you meet that you're not really a Sensate. Assuming the bit about SPECIAL_REMOVE_SENSORY_TOUCH in the last post doesn't cause a problem, I will be making infiltrating set Join_Sensates to 1. You still won't get Sensory Touch, of course - that's clearly intended.

Besides. If you are a Sensate when you join the Anarchists, it doesn't turn Join_Sensates off. It just removes Sensory Touch, and that's it. So that's a way already in game that you can become a real "infiltrator" of the Sensates for the anarchists and still have Join_Sensates set to 1. So I'm just making the other way around consistent with what's already in game.

Qwinn

[scient]

I'd take that check out. In Barking Wilder's dialogue, if you're REALLY chaotic and already a Chaosman, you can ask him to join the Chaosmen again even though you already are one. Join_Chaosmen_2 is just a dialogue variable used so that you can't do that bit twice. It really doesn't have anything to do with whether you are a member.

However, as far as item usability, be aware that you are a Chaosman if the Join_Chaosmen variable is set to 1 OR to 3. If it's set to 3, you're actually the factol of the faction. Most other factions you only really belong to if their Join_ variable is set to 1... except Godsmen (6) or Xaositects (1 or 3).

Ah ok, I'll drop that bit of code then since it's pointless.

[Qwinn]

Scofflaw always seemed to picky for me with the right choices for him to accept you.

There's an interesting thing concerning this. A very un-obvious way to lock yourself out of being an Anarchist forever, right at the beginning of the game.

When talking to Vaxis at the beginning of the game, if you have Morte with you, he can say:

"Anarchists... they're a faction..." Morte looks like he's about to let loose a torrent of insults, then notices the zombie staring at you both, listening intently. "...they, uh, want to *liberate* everyone from the chains of government. Tear down the old, establish a new order with no order at all."

If you reply:

Truth: "That doesn't seem constructive to anyone. Some order, some law is always necessary for progress to be made."

Then you are locked out from ever becoming an Anarchist. Scofflaw Penn just won't give away that he's an Anarchist, no matter what you do to earn his trust. Apparently Vaxis (who to be fair -is- described as "listening intently") informs Scofflaw Penn of your general feelings about law and chaos. The bastard.

Qwinn

[nevill]

And the more I think about it, the "infiltrate only one at a time" idea doesn't actually make it much easier. Maybe 10% easier at best.

Someone, please, think of an easier way to deal with this. Please.

Ummm... may I?

Yes, I do believe that the 2nd option would be the correct one. The way I would have done it might be not that elegant, but certainly is pretty simple.

STATE X
"You want to become a member of OtherFaction(j). Are you already a member of another faction?"
IF ("Join_Anarchists"=0 AND *all* ot the "Join_OtherFaction(i)"=0) THEN REPLY "No" GOTO STATE Y
IF ("Join_Anarchists"=1 AND *all* ot the "Join_OtherFaction(i)"=0) THEN REPLY "Lie to infiltrate" GOTO STATE Y
IF "Join_Anarchists"=1 THEN REPLY "Yes, I am with the Anarchists" GOTO STATE Y+1
{for i=1...4, i!=j}
IF "Join_OtherFaction(i)"=1 THEN REPLY "Yes, I am with the OtherFaction(i)" GOTO STATE Y+i+1 // 4 dialogue options
{end}
IF THEN REPLY "Never mind." GOTO EXIT (or wherever it should lead. I'll use EXIT for that purpose)

STATE Y
"Welcome, believer!"
IF THEN REPLY "OK" ~Set "Join_OtherFaction(j)"~ GOTO EXIT
IF THEN REPLY "No, wait!" GOTO EXIT

STATE Y+1
"Would you renounce them?"
IF (*all* ot the "Join_OtherFaction"=0) THEN REPLY "Yes" ~Set "Join_Anarchists"=whatever_it_is_set_when_you_are_expelled~ GOTO EXIT
{for i=1...4, i!=j}
IF "Join_OtherFaction(i)"=1 THEN REPLY "Yes" ~Set "Join_Anarchists"=whatever_it_is_set_when_you_are_expelled; Set "Join_OtherFaction(i)"=same_thing~ GOTO EXIT // 4 dialogue options
{end}
IF THEN REPLY "No" GOTO EXIT

STATE Y+i+1
"Would you renounce them?"
IF THEN REPLY "Yes, I renounce OtherFaction(i)" ~Set "Join_OtherFaction(i)"=whatever_it_is_set_when_you_are_expelled~ GOTO EXIT
IF THEN REPLY "No" GOTO EXIT

The main idea behind this mess is a separate STATE for each dialogue branch corresponding with you being in another faction. Once you admit your membership with one faction, you can only renounce this faction. If you are a 'fake' member of one faction and then chose to renounce you Anarchist's membership to join yet another faction, you will renounce both your 'fake' and the Anarchists faction.

If this does not look smooth enough, you can take out the part where you admit your Anarchist's membership. Makes the solution even simplier.

Apparently Vaxis (who to be fair -is- described as "listening intently") informs Scofflaw Penn of your general feelings about law and chaos.

Or the developers just got the variables mixed. I am really inclined to think that way. I mean, turning Vaxis in does not prevent you from joining the Anarchists, but a single line dropped in some completely unrelated area without being even remotely aware of the consequences does? Uh-huh...

Edited by nevill, 07 July 2009 - 06:28 AM.

[Qwinn]

Or the developers just got the variables mixed. I am really inclined to think that way. smile.gif I mean, turning Vaxis in does not prevent you from joining the Anarchists, but a single line dropped in some completely unrelated area without being even remotely aware of the consequences does? Uh-huh...

I know that I wrote somewhere else (many many moons ago) that the variable that indicates that you turned in Vaxis was really similar and thus it was probably a bug, but I just looked at it again to verify that, and actually it isn't. The variable for speaking that line to Vaxis is "Lawful_Vaxis_3". Somewhere I got the impression that turning Vaxis in was a similar variable, but it isn't... "Lawful_Vaxis_1" is the variable that indicates that you -vowed- to Vaxis not to turn him in, but not that you actually do. The variable for actually turning Vaxis in is "Betray_Vaxis".

Why doesn't turning Vaxis in get you in trouble when speaking that line does? My guess/justification would be that when you turn him in, he is immediately captured by the Dustmen and never has a chance to inform Scofflaw Penn of who did it.

As for your suggestion on how to code it up, lemme take a look. IE dialogues don't let you do "for" loops, but, yeah, lemme look and see what's up... I'm already fairly sure how to deal with -most- situations, but not one specific one, so let me see how you dealt with it.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 07 July 2009 - 06:38 AM.