6 replies to this topic

[Indrian]

Not positive this is the right forum of the three, but I think what I am discussing counts as a tweak more than anything else.

One of the things that frustrates me about this game from a story perspective is that the arbitrary party size of six prevents getting all the fun story bits on one playthrough. In particular, I am thinking of Ravel's comments on the torments that plague each party member and the Fortress. Obviously, even if the engine could be modified to support a party of eight, this would destroy all game balance, so I would not consider that a solution. I do wonder if we could have a tweak, however, that would let us experience all this content on a single run.

First, Ravel's maze. The scenario I envision goes something like this: if a PC has been in your party in the past, Ravel will comment on that PC's torment even if he or she is not there. Ditto for her comments asking what you think of your companions. Now, some of these exchanges trigger responses from the party, so I suppose it would also be necessary to have the game take into account who is currently with you and only trigger the responses for PCs that are present.

As for the fortress, I was thinking maybe all the death cut scenes could play no matter your party makeup and that everyone could likewise be rezed at the end. I would not envision changing the whole Vhailor/Ignus thing at all, just whether you see the rest of the party die and being able to rez them later.

Not a programmer so I do not know if the above would be possible or worth the effort, but to me at least, it would make the story more satisfying. Curious to hear your thoughts.

[taplonaplo]

It is kinda lame that you can't get enough flattery points from ravel without having both annah and grace (well i couldn't anyway), on the other hand, hey it's C&C.

[scient]

Well, I think the main issue would be with the UI. This would be getting into territory where my patches would have to coincide with all the other resolution mods. Because of this, not making it priority. However, I will add it to list as something to look at like after v4 is released.

[Qwinn]

scient,

Nah. The OP isn't even asking for an -actual- increase in party size, he's asking for dialogue to be available for party members that aren't present.

I have no intention of doing this. It'd be a hell of a lot of work for very little gain. It would also make the dialogues where this occurred nonsensical. If you want to see the other dialogue options, play through again with a different class/alignment and take different party members.

As for the fortress, I was thinking maybe all the death cut scenes could play no matter your party makeup and that everyone could likewise be rezed at the end. I would not envision changing the whole Vhailor/Ignus thing at all, just whether you see the rest of the party die and being able to rez them later.

What purpose is there for me doing all the work to make this happen, when you can just, you know, bring everyone besides Vhailor/Ignus with you?

It is kinda lame that you can't get enough flattery points from ravel without having both annah and grace (well i couldn't anyway), on the other hand, hey it's C&C.

Agreed. There is absolutely no margin for error in getting Ravel's best prize - you need 11 flattery points, and 11 flattery points is the maximum you can get. It's irritating, seeing as there are several instances that you'd think would increase the flattery score that don't do so. But, can't really do much about it via Fixpack or UB, and it's not worth a stand alone tweak.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 29 June 2009 - 01:32 PM.

[Indrian]

I have no intention of doing this. It'd be a hell of a lot of work for very little gain. It would also make the dialogues where this occurred nonsensical. If you want to see the other dialogue options, play through again with a different class/alignment and take different party members.

Like I said, I am no programmer, so if you say it is too much work then that is that, (and looking at the dialogues more closely you are right about narrative issues) but I think you misunderstood my point. It seems to me the story of Torment is as much the story of TNOs companions as it is the story of TNO himself, and that story is partly compromised by the arbitrary six person limit. This is not the same as deciding to play the game through as good or evil, choosing a faction, or deciding which woman to woo. It would be nice if there was a way to include the complete story of each character in the game. Obviously my first stab was not completely thought out, but I was hoping to engender discussion as opposed to actually presenting a solution on the first go around.

What purpose is there for me doing all the work to make this happen, when you can just, you know, bring everyone besides Vhailor/Ignus with you?

Its about giving each character closure. Vhailor wants his justice, Ignus wants his revenge, the others sacrifice themselves for you and then have a final bit of dialogue bringing the story to a close. Actually, when I said that Vhailor and Ignus should be left untouched, in retrospect it would be kinda cool if you could fight them both one at a time too, though it has been a long while since I have played through the fortess, so that might end up being screwy too. The idea being that this is the only way one can tell the story of the entire group. From a gameplay perspective, there is nothing broken about the way things are now, but from a story perspective, things are left a little damaged.

If you see this as more of a path/choice issue of which characters you bring, I can certainly see that. In the end, you have to do what you think is best for your mod. You did seem a little dismissive about what the story points I was attempting to raise, however, though I could be misconstruing your response. Either way, as the header says, I am trying to engender discussion on the best way to handle these issues as opposed to offering what is necessarily the best solution.

Edited by Indrian, 29 June 2009 - 02:38 PM.

[Qwinn]

I apologize if I seemed dismissive, it's just that it's not the first time that it's been suggested, so it's something I've already thought through long ago.

Personally, I see not being able to take everyone with you in one go as a function of their wanting the game to have some replayability, which I support. I don't think it's good for the game to reduce that. As an analogy, I don't think it would be a good idea to try to get every BG2 character's dialogue squeezed into a single run through of BG2 - in fact, it'd be terrible. Nor do I think I ever saw it suggested for BG2. Maybe it's because PS:T has so many fewer PC's available, so it seems more within reach to take them all? If that's the reasoning, I don't see it as a valid argument for it. The same reasoning that explains why you can and SHOULD only be able to take a percentage of your available PC's through BG2 also applies to PS:T. The story of BG2 isn't "damaged" by the fact that all possible PC's don't get closure, and neither is PS:T IMO.

This is not the same as deciding to play the game through as good or evil, choosing a faction, or deciding which woman to woo.

Looking at the BG2 analogy, I think it is. When I replay BG2, a big part of my plan for each replay is who I take with me... in fact, if I didn't have choices of different PC's to bring along, I'd be much less likely to want to do my replay. PS:T offers less choices, which is sad, but I don't see it as an argument to eliminate the choice altogether.

I actually think I make a good nod in the direction you're requesting with the Save Nordom! tweak, as it gives you the ability to enjoy more PC's for a greater portion of the game. I think that's as far as I'm willing to go in that direction though.

If you or others want to make a stronger pitch for something like that, feel free, I'm just saying that I'm unpersuaded by the arguments so far (not just yours, but the ones that have been advanced in the past as well).

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 29 June 2009 - 03:20 PM.

[Indrian]

Ah, had not realized this had come up before, so my apologies for rehashing old territory.

I agree with you about BG2, but I think the fundamental difference is not the fewer number of PCs but rather the intricate connection every one of them has to TNO (well okay, maybe Fall-From-Grace and Nordrom don't as much, but still). From a story perspective, it seems to me kind of odd that one might choose Ignus early on, learn all the back story about the master/apprentice relationship, and then drop him off at the brothel or the Modron cube and never see him again. Ditto for Dak'hon the slave or Morte and his following TNO around everywhere over his guilt. From a story perspective, we are told over and over that TNO draws tormented souls to him like a lodestone but then poof, there is no payoff with at least two characters. It could be that the designers decided on this method for greater replayability, after all, they knew the limitations of the engine and chose to put in eight PCs, but it leaves messy loose ends in a single playthrough that cannot be resolved. BG2, with its many NPCs that are more tangnetial to the main plot and the main character's story, does not have the same problem.

Ravel's Maze probably can't really be tweaked in a reasonable manner to accomodate that, so it may be best to leave that alone, but I wonder how much work it would be to have the fortress play every cutscene and every fight on a single playthrough. If its a lot of work, I can understand how based on your philosophy on the modifications you want to make it would not be worth it. If it would only take a little effort, however, seems it would make a fair number happy if this has come up before and would still be a completely optional tweak for those who don't care for it. I will say no more on the matter, but I appreciate that you put up with all of us cooky people and our strange thoughts on the game and have put so much work into an incredible mod.