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#1 Solstice

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 06:29 AM

With all the character ideas floating around for big, in-depth characters with massive backstories, deeply involved romances, and God knows what else, I think I'm ready to dive into the modding world with something altogether different-a character who considers her relationship with <CHARNAME> professional, though she does bring her own unique personality and upbringing with her.

Name: Isobel Vespasian
Gender: Female
Race: Human
Class: Cleric (of Gond)
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Age: 25
Romanceable: No.
Stats (tentative):
STR: 14
DEX: 12
CON: 10
INT: 16
WIS: 17
CHA: 12

IsobelM2.jpg

Background:

One of the more mysterious places in Faerun is called Lantan, a secluded island nation off the coast of Chult and capital of Gond?s faith. To those aware of it, Lantan has a reputation as a land of wonders, where technology has advanced farther than anywhere else in Faerun and where the church of Gond, god of invention and innovation, reigns. Trade with Lantan is infrequent, thanks to the long voyage between the island and most of civilized Faerun, but one recent trading ship, bearing the strange technological creations of that distant land, has also brought Isobel Vespasian, priestess of Gond, to Athkatla.

Isobel?s background is not unusual for a Lantanna clergywoman-the church of the Wonderbringer is the state religion of Lantan, and almost all Lantanna interested in the spiritual find themselves in service to Gond, god of technology, creation, and craftsmanship, ally of Oghma and Deneir, yet increasingly separate from both. Isobel was born to the lower reaches of society, daughter of a miner and his herbalist wife. Options for a girl born to such a family were limited, save by entering the service of Gond.

Her decision to join the Gondar was not a choice of economics, however. Isobel possessed a spiritual heart and penetrating mind from an early age, and, being the daughter of a miner, was born to the world of industry-mining being the very lifeblood of craftsmanship. She saw the poor conditions that even Lantanna miners endure, the physically difficult labor and sometimes literally backbreaking burdens that industry demands of those who work in it.

Isobel saw the potential for that to change, and she saw it in Gond?s priesthood. For decades, the Gondar knew the secret and closely guarded formula for smokepowder-a seemingly ordinary mix of compounds and powders that, when properly mixed, compressed, and ignited with a flame, burst forth in a powerful explosion. The Gondar priesthood had long used smokepowder as a weapon, in arquebus and cannon, but Isobel saw in the unstable compound the potential for constructive use, as well as destructive. Explosive charges could easily crack open dense formations of rock to expose the veins of useful metals within.

Her history of service in the church of Gond has been unremarkable, if satisfactory. However, after several years of service in Lantan, Isobel decided to strike out from her home, to seek passage aboard a Lantanna trading ship and see more of the world. Though she has read much of Faerun, she truly knows little of it. That, she felt, was of little consequence, until she arrived in Athkatla and saw for herself what she feels is the oppressive nature of Athkatla. However, she had arrived, and Isobel has decided to stay in Faerun, and is currently preparing to venture to a place that might be more receptive to Gond and the idea of technological innovation she so espouses.

Personality and Beliefs

Isobel is an orderly, deeply law-abiding, woman. She does not quite believe that the universe runs on cosmic clockwork, but she does believe in a natural order to all things and all people, and that when things or people act against the order of the universe, chaos results, damaging other things and people. This does not mean she accepts excuses such as demons being anarchical and evil because that?s simply the way they are-in that case, the way demons are means they are to be removed like a malignant growth on the universe. Isobel believes firmly in justice, made as harsh as necessary to enforce compliance, and public order, which she believes strengthens society and is the natural birthright of all.

The question of good and evil matters little to Isobel. To her, results and efficiency matter much more than any notion of morality, and while she is content to work with both good and evil as necessary, she dislikes and distrusts the extremes of both. Extreme good would raise an incredible fuss over the use of slave labor to complete a project, and extreme evil would use a neutral project towards its own ends. Isobel considers both responses to be counterproductive.

The issue of technology also highlights an important part of Isobel?s beliefs and personality-the popular image of technological development fostering chaos and anarchy is, in her mind, a misconception. Anything built by the work of men, be it simple craftsmanship or spectacular feats of engineering, is fundamentally a feat of order, putting purpose and structure to what was previously incoherent or nonexistent. Only in the hands of people predisposed to chaos and anarchy use technology to those ends-in the hands of wise and intelligent people, there is nothing to worry about. In short, Isobel respects wisdom and intelligence. She considers herself to possess both qualities, and respects other people who she considers intelligent or wise, even if she disagrees with what they believe.

With other people, Isobel considers it her duty as a priestess of Gond to minister to the faithful, and when the opportunity presents itself, to evangelize those who do not believe. She is not necessarily after spiritual conversion-she certainly respects those who believe in deities she herself respects-but considers the duty more intellectual than spiritual, bringing others to consider rationally the ideals of Gond, and the merits thereof, especially of invention and innovation. Indeed, the line between the spiritual and the intellectual is deeply blurred in Isobel?s mind, as it is her view that what one thinks should also be what one believes, and what one believes should be what one thinks.

In her interactions with others, however, Isobel also tries to maintain a certain sense of professionalism, holding a degree of respect and courtesy as a matter of course, and keeping her nose out of places it is not wanted. Her record in maintaining this distance is not spectacular, however, especially over time.

The most notable flaw in Isobel, from what I've written of her now, is her arrogance. Isobel quite confidently believes herself to be right, and those who disagree with her on what she considers important matters to be wrong. She is entirely matter-of-fact about this attitude, and if asked would simply respond that she is right, you are wrong, and there's nothing to discuss about it. Isobel hails from a fairly sheltered culture, where the level of technology is much higher than in much of Faerun, and would be very prone to assuming that people in Faerun have, for example, ready access to books, even for the poorest members of society, due to the invention of the printing press, or be appalled at Athkatla's sewer system, much less sophisticated than that of any large city in Lantan.

Isobel's other main flaw, though I'm not sure how well it could come out in a mod without an extensive quest, is her common failure to think about the consequences of her actions. She believes herself to be wise and intelligent, but there are definite blind spots thanks mainly to her arrogant mindset, and she's much more concerned about actions than their consequences down the road. In a way, she thinks it much more important to be right than correct, insofar as she views the world.

Isobel's age suits her, as I've written her presently. She's old enough to be a confirmed priestess with a few years of experience under her belt, but that experience is mostly entry-level work in the faith, not adventuring, and she still has much to learn and look forward to while she still has her youthful idealism. My original age for her was 32, but considering that humans in FR are considered adult at 15, thought ten years of experience as an adult sounded right.

Romance note:

Isobel will not be romancable. She sees her relationship with <CHARNAME> as a professional one: a mutually beneficial arrangement with no real strings attached. She would not be bothered if <CHARNAME> kicked her out of the party, and would likely be willing to help again if encountered later. However, this is only part of the reason a romantic relationship is out of the question, and another part is simple: she is simply not interested. Isobel does hope to settle down one day with someone she loves, but that is not today, and she especially isn?t interested in an adventurer. <CHARNAME> may have the opportunity to flirt with her a little, and if <CHARNAME> is female, she may even reciprocate, but the flirtation will go nowhere.

Relations with NPC?s

Isobel will be as happy to work with a mostly good party as a mostly evil party, and the characters she will and will not get along well with are diverse-she will like and befriend Aerie, highly respect LN and LG Anomen, and do her best to coexist amicably with Edwin, but Nalia?s beliefs will appall and horrify Isobel, while Haer?Dalis would strike her as badly misguided. Naturally, as a fellow inventor, Jan would be Isobel?s most likely friend, though Isobel?s own rigidly lawful nature versus Jan?s carefree attitude would come into conflict.


As a character idea, I'm content with her being relatively simple: banters with NPC's, a few talks with Charname, but no romance or in-depth friendship. I've also considered trying to create unique items and an ability for her, to create smokepowder grenades as described in the 2E book in faiths in Faerun and specifically the section on Gond's church and his priests.

Joining the party

I was specifically thinking that Isobel would be at the city gates, considering a journey to Trademeet as possibly being fertile grounds for Gond's ideas, and she'd be content to travel with Charname to Trademeet simply as a fellow traveler, but after seeing Trademeet and all that goes on there, she would consider traveling at Charname's side to be quite the interesting prospect. For good or ill, Charname changes a lot as he or she passes through, and Isobel would consider it worthwhile to remain with Charname to see what happens. By the same token, she considers herself an active priestess of Gond, with rank and responsibilities thereof, and she understands if Charname no longer desires her presence-she'll go off on her own, looking for someplace to sow the seeds of invention and progress.

Feedback is welcome!

Edited by Solstice, 11 December 2009 - 08:02 PM.

"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!" -Charname, Baldur's Gate 1

"Power corrupts. And absolute power is actually pretty neat." -Tom Clancy

"Is it possible to take Favored Enemy: Forum Poster?" -Someone who shall remain anonymous

#2 theacefes

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 01:41 PM

Nice idea...refreshing as well...there are not a ton of cleric mods. :) I like your idea of giving her the smokepowder grenades as well!

Two things: 1) I find it a bit unrealistic that she wouldn't mind getting picked up and dropped off whenever in CHARNAME's party, considering the amount of dangers they face and risks they take. She doesn't seem like an avid daredevil so I can only presume that she is like most mortal creatures who fear self destruction at some level, in which case, you may want to reconsider her notions of not being bothered if she's picked up and kicked out.

2) The only noticeable flaw I can see from your description is that she may be a busybody (or a developing one), but is there anything else that may set her apart as a human with flaws? Specific background incidents in her life? She is only 25, which is still young for a human. I'm not saying she has to be ridden with flaws but I was just curious.

Overall, I like the idea. :) I hope you decide to make this into a mod.
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#3 Solstice

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 08:34 PM

1) I find it a bit unrealistic that she wouldn't mind getting picked up and dropped off whenever in CHARNAME's party, considering the amount of dangers they face and risks they take. She doesn't seem like an avid daredevil so I can only presume that she is like most mortal creatures who fear self destruction at some level, in which case, you may want to reconsider her notions of not being bothered if she's picked up and kicked out.


Isobel is no daredevil, certainly, but clerics of Gond are highly encouraged to stay mobile and see the world.

I was specifically thinking that Isobel would be at the city gates, considering a journey to Trademeet as possibly being fertile grounds for Gond's ideas, and she'd be content to travel with Charname to Trademeet simply as a fellow traveler, but after seeing Trademeet and all that goes on there, she would consider traveling at Charname's side to be quite the interesting prospect. For good or ill, Charname changes a lot as he or she passes through, and Isobel would consider it worthwhile to remain with Charname to see what happens. By the same token, she considers herself an active priestess of Gond, with rank and responsibilities thereof, and she understands if Charname no longer desires her presence-she'll go off on her own, looking for someplace to sow the seeds of invention and progress.

2) The only noticeable flaw I can see from your description is that she may be a busybody (or a developing one), but is there anything else that may set her apart as a human with flaws? Specific background incidents in her life? She is only 25, which is still young for a human. I'm not saying she has to be ridden with flaws but I was just curious.


The most notable flaw in Isobel, from what I've written of her now, is her arrogance. Isobel quite confidently believes herself to be right, and those who disagree with her on what she considers important matters to be wrong. She is entirely matter-of-fact about this attitude, and if asked would simply respond that she is right, you are wrong, and there's nothing to discuss about it. Isobel hails from a fairly sheltered culture, where the level of technology is much higher than in much of Faerun, and would be very prone to assuming that people in Faerun have, for example, ready access to books, even for the poorest members of society, due to the invention of the printing press, or be appalled at Athkatla's sewer system, much less sophisticated than that of any large city in Lantan.

Isobel's other main flaw, though I'm not sure how well it could come out in a mod without an extensive quest, is her common failure to think about the consequences of her actions. She believes herself to be wise and intelligent, but there are definite blind spots thanks mainly to her arrogant mindset, and she's much more concerned about actions than their consequences down the road. In a way, she thinks it much more important to be right than correct, insofar as she views the world.

Isobel's age suits her, as I've written her presently. She's old enough to be a confirmed priestess with a few years of experience under her belt, but that experience is mostly entry-level work in the faith, not adventuring, and she still has much to learn and look forward to while she still has her youthful idealism. My original age for her was 32, but considering that humans in FR are considered adult at 15, thought ten years of experience as an adult sounded right.

Nice idea...refreshing as well...there are not a ton of cleric mods.


Much less avowedly neutral ones who happily work with good and evil parties alike? :) I have a hard time writing anything *but* deeply religious characters.

I like your idea of giving her the smokepowder grenades as well!


If there's enough support for this character concept, I've been digging through mod npc tutorials and feel I'm up to the challenge of writing and coding a mod npc, probably with help, but I'm not going to worry about more complicated things like items. One of the other ideas I had was giving her an arquebus, either as a sling-type weapon only she can use, or a permanent quick-slot item she can use a given number of times per day, in either case able to be periodically upgraded-Isobel is a tinker and passing inventor herself, and I have several ideas for dialogues centered around her fiddling with her strange and dangerous contraption(s).

Unlike Jan, Isobel is a bit more practical in her inventiveness, and quite a bit more potentially dangerous. :) I could very easily see an older, and wiser, Isobel missing a few fingers.
"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!" -Charname, Baldur's Gate 1

"Power corrupts. And absolute power is actually pretty neat." -Tom Clancy

"Is it possible to take Favored Enemy: Forum Poster?" -Someone who shall remain anonymous

#4 Azkyroth

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 12:06 AM

Items aren't complicated and the arquebus would be pretty easy to code if you don't mind it being an approximation. If you make it a special one that she's modified to be more practical on the mainland, that uses small charges of smokepowder that she produces in her spare time and fires sling bullets, using a crossbow avatar animation would make this pretty easy. If you wanted to make it more powerful but balanced, I could get back to you on a technique I have in mind for one of my own item additions...

[EDIT]Please tell me you've thought about crossmod banter...

Edited by Azkyroth, 30 June 2009 - 12:21 AM.

"Tyranny is a quiet thing at first, a prim and proper lady pursing her lips and shaking her head disapprovingly, asking, well what were you doing (wearing that dress, walking home at that hour, expressing those inappropriate thoughts) anyway? It's subtle and insidious, disguised as reasonable precautions which become more and more oppressive over time, until our lives are defined by the things we must avoid. She's easy enough to agree with, after all, she's only trying to help -- and yet she's one of the most dangerous influences we face, because if she prevails, it puts the raping, robbing, axe-wielding madmen of the world in complete control. Eventually they'll barely need to wield a thing, all they'll have to do is leer menacingly and we fall all over ourselves trying to placate them." -godlizard


#5 Solstice

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 06:21 AM

Items aren't complicated and the arquebus would be pretty easy to code if you don't mind it being an approximation. If you make it a special one that she's modified to be more practical on the mainland, that uses small charges of smokepowder that she produces in her spare time and fires sling bullets, using a crossbow avatar animation would make this pretty easy. If you wanted to make it more powerful but balanced, I could get back to you on a technique I have in mind for one of my own item additions...


That's one of the ideas I had in mind, but if there's enough interest in this mod idea, I'd prefer to do the character first, add all the extra goodies like special items later. I don't want to get over-ambitious.

[EDIT]Please tell me you've thought about crossmod banter...


I certainly have, though I'm waiting for signs of more interest in Isobel's concept.

As I've gotten a PM asking about something I implied in the initial post with Isobel's romance note, yes, she is a lesbian, but as mentioned, has zero interest in romance during her time with the party beyond mild flirtation.

Also, here are her proposed stats and justifications:

STR: 14 (She did grow up in the poor levels of society, and she's strong enough to do some smith work on her own, as well as maintain control of a firing arquebus)
DEX: 12 (Enough to tinker with her equipment, but not enough to, say, drop a small bit of smokepowder before it explodes in her face)
CON: 10 (Mainly to keep her balanced, but also because all the chemicals and fumes she's been exposed to can't be good for her)
INT: 16 (Isobel is highly educated and very intelligent, especially in hard-boiled science and theory as opposed to magic)
WIS: 17 (Minus the blind spots created by her own arrogance, Isobel is insightful, practical, and more than a little philisophical)
CHA: 12 (She's no poet or orator, but Isobel can make herself be heard when necessary)

And, for those interested in her appearance, Isobel is of average height (5'6" or so), slim build, and has brown skin and black hair-the position of the equator in Faerun is never specified, but Lantan is off the northwest coast of Chult, the great tropical jungle of Faerun, so my visual concept of Isobel is that she looks distinctly North African.
"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!" -Charname, Baldur's Gate 1

"Power corrupts. And absolute power is actually pretty neat." -Tom Clancy

"Is it possible to take Favored Enemy: Forum Poster?" -Someone who shall remain anonymous

#6 theacefes

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 01:02 PM

You are probably going to get objections to her stats...because there is always someone who objects to stats, but not me because I don't know enough about the rulebooks to care.

drop a small bit of smokepowder before it explodes in her face


If this could be implemented in the mod with a certain chance of this happening, *that* would be cool. :)

As for my questions above, thanks for explaining them, though you may want to make sure they are clear in the original description so you don't get asked it twice.
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#7 Solstice

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 01:16 PM

If this could be implemented in the mod with a certain chance of this happening, *that* would be cool. :)


I was actually hoping to eventually add something like that-one of Isobel's banters where she's tinkering with her arquebus, or a grenade, would end in a small explosion, hurting her.

As for my questions above, thanks for explaining them, though you may want to make sure they are clear in the original description so you don't get asked it twice.


Will do.


I'm mostly writing dialogues for Isobel at this point, trying to find her voice. As it is, there are three major sides to her-the pragmatic and avowedly lawfully neutral cleric, the inventor who specializes in a dangerous field of creation, and the genuinely soft-hearted woman beneath, and I'm trying to balance those aspects of her.

Here are three sample banter ideas, each showing one of those aspects.

This would be one of her preachier moments-Isobel does not get along well with Nalia at all.

Isobel: Nalia, may I ask something of you?

Nalia: Certainly.

Isobel: I understand that you are distraught over the circumstances the lower classes of society in Amn enjoy, or suffer as the case may be, and wish to change those circumstances.

Nalia: Of course I wish to change those circumstances! Haven?t you seen them, seen how so-called nobles lord their titles and wealth over the poor and the needy?

Isobel: Yes, I have. My question is: assuming you do succeed in your goals, what do you intend to create in place of the current society?

Nalia: I?d like to see a society where people are created equally, where one?s ability determines their place in society rather than one?s parentage.

Isobel: I see.

Nalia: What do you mean?

Isobel: I?ve only seen a little of Amn, so perhaps my observations are mistaken, but it strikes me that your goals suffer from one primary problem: they are not practical without a dramatic and sweeping change in all levels of society. Or a revolution.

Nalia: If it takes revolution, so be it.

Isobel: I see.


This would be a dialogue while the party camps, and a prelude to Isobel modifying her arquebus if I go that route, pretty much adding a flintlock firing mechanism to make the weapon safer and faster.

Isobel: Valygar, how did you just light the fire?

Valygar: With flint and steel.

Isobel: I see that, but may I ask how?

Valygar: It?s simple wilderness-craft. Take a piece of flint and a piece of steel, strike one against the other to produce a spark. Use that spark to light a fire.

Isobel: So simple, yet ingenious all the same... and reliable, too.

Valygar: I take it you do not use such methods in Lantan?

Isobel: No, we use what you would consider more exotic methods. But? hmmm? I think you?ve given me a most interesting idea. Thank you, Valygar.

Valygar: You?re welcome.


This would be the start of Isobel befriending Aerie, as I mentioned in her introduction. Isobel can be soft and personable, and she does genuinely like Aerie. I'm debating adding some flirtation between Isobel and Aerie, given that Isobel would probably end up closer to Aerie than, say, Charname, but I'm thinking not.

Aerie: Isobel, m-may I ask you something?

Isobel: Certainly.

Aerie: Y-you?re a long way from h-home, aren?t you? D-do you ever miss your home?

Isobel: Yes, though I doubt I?ve been away as long as you have. Are you homesick, Aerie?

Aerie: Y-yes, I suppose I am. I still see Faeyna-Dail in my dreams sometimes, and my mother?

Isobel: Aerie, you don?t need to continue if you don?t want to. I understand how painful it can be to think of home, when it should be pleasant dreaming.

Aerie: You do?

Isobel: Is it so surprising? People usually aren?t as different from one another as they think.

Aerie: Th-thank you, Isobel. Somehow, that thought makes me feel better, that I?m not so? different.
"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!" -Charname, Baldur's Gate 1

"Power corrupts. And absolute power is actually pretty neat." -Tom Clancy

"Is it possible to take Favored Enemy: Forum Poster?" -Someone who shall remain anonymous

#8 Azkyroth

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 02:18 PM

17 seems like a high wisdom given how you describe her, even given my personal disinclination to ascribe two-digit INT or WIS scores to Lawful Neutral individuals. ;/ Something like 14 or 15 might be better, given that her blind spots, arrogance, and dogmatism seem to have a pretty substantial hold on how she relates to most people and concepts.

"Tyranny is a quiet thing at first, a prim and proper lady pursing her lips and shaking her head disapprovingly, asking, well what were you doing (wearing that dress, walking home at that hour, expressing those inappropriate thoughts) anyway? It's subtle and insidious, disguised as reasonable precautions which become more and more oppressive over time, until our lives are defined by the things we must avoid. She's easy enough to agree with, after all, she's only trying to help -- and yet she's one of the most dangerous influences we face, because if she prevails, it puts the raping, robbing, axe-wielding madmen of the world in complete control. Eventually they'll barely need to wield a thing, all they'll have to do is leer menacingly and we fall all over ourselves trying to placate them." -godlizard


#9 Solstice

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 02:30 PM

Isobel wouldn't consider dogmatism unwise at all. Yes, she is arrogant, but within terms of that arrogance, is wise, insightful, and sensible. Moreover, she'd disagree with you point-blank that being Lawful Neutral makes her unlikely to have a high wisdom score-Isobel is confident in her own beliefs, and would be more amused than anything at your response. She's at least honest enough to admit that she's arrogant-expect Valygar for one to call her out on it. But to Isobel, on important issues, you're either right or wrong, and she's not wrong. She would say that you're entitled to your own beliefs, however wrong you are, and she's not going to convert you at the point of a sword.

As for her initial weapons, Isobel uses the favored weapon of Gond: the warhammer, though she also understands how to use slings (and thus her arquebus, if I add it in that manner).

Isobel might also leave the party in the event Charname is an evil cleric and takes the Talos temple stronghold. Isobel is a priestess of Gond, and Gond is archly opposed to Talos' ethos of chaos and destruction, where Gond is a god of creation. And creation of destruction, admittedly.

Edited by Solstice, 30 June 2009 - 02:34 PM.

"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!" -Charname, Baldur's Gate 1

"Power corrupts. And absolute power is actually pretty neat." -Tom Clancy

"Is it possible to take Favored Enemy: Forum Poster?" -Someone who shall remain anonymous

#10 Azkyroth

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 04:32 PM

Isobel wouldn't consider dogmatism unwise at all. Yes, she is arrogant, but within terms of that arrogance, is wise, insightful, and sensible. Moreover, she'd disagree with you point-blank that being Lawful Neutral makes her unlikely to have a high wisdom score-Isobel is confident in her own beliefs, and would be more amused than anything at your response. She's at least honest enough to admit that she's arrogant-expect Valygar for one to call her out on it. But to Isobel, on important issues, you're either right or wrong, and she's not wrong. She would say that you're entitled to your own beliefs, however wrong you are, and she's not going to convert you at the point of a sword.


My beliefs aren't the issue, but as you've described her, there are sweeping areas and categories of thoughts and concepts that she summarily refuses to consider. This is difficult to reconcile with a "one-away-from-perfect" score in an attribute which is defined as

a composite of the character’s enlightenment, judgment, guile, willpower, common sense, and intuition

, especially items 1, 2, and 6.

"Tyranny is a quiet thing at first, a prim and proper lady pursing her lips and shaking her head disapprovingly, asking, well what were you doing (wearing that dress, walking home at that hour, expressing those inappropriate thoughts) anyway? It's subtle and insidious, disguised as reasonable precautions which become more and more oppressive over time, until our lives are defined by the things we must avoid. She's easy enough to agree with, after all, she's only trying to help -- and yet she's one of the most dangerous influences we face, because if she prevails, it puts the raping, robbing, axe-wielding madmen of the world in complete control. Eventually they'll barely need to wield a thing, all they'll have to do is leer menacingly and we fall all over ourselves trying to placate them." -godlizard


#11 Solstice

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 04:52 PM

My beliefs aren't the issue, but as you've described her, there are sweeping areas and categories of thoughts and concepts that she summarily refuses to consider.


Where did I say she refused to consider the areas of thought she considers wrong? She has considered other areas of thought and rejected them. She's neither a paladin nor a blackguard, but does know about them, and she is quite secure in her own beliefs-secure enough that she is quite capable of knowing a fair amount about philosophies and concepts she rejects as untrue and/or wrong while still being confident and secure in the beliefs she's chosen, like a normal person secure in their faith.

This is difficult to reconcile with a "one-away-from-perfect" score in an attribute which is defined as [blah] , especially items 1, 2, and 6.


Just because she apparently would greatly disagree with you on what constitutes enlightment and good intuition doesn't mean she's wrong. Of those six...

Enlightment: Isobel is a confirmed priest of Gond rising through the ranks of the church's hierarchy. She's well educated in both spiritual and secular issues, especially science and some mathematics, and part of her duties as a priestess have been looking after the flock and tending to those in need of spiritual guidance. Isobel is very enlightened, and has chosen her beliefs.

Judgment: Isobel's judgment differs depending on the area of judgment in question. She would consider her judgment in her personal and spiritual lives to be sound and proper. She'd give you the fact that she doesn't always think about the consequences of her actions in other areas, and that she's had a few... accidents... as an inventor, but that doesn't constitute overall bad judgement by any means.

Guile: Isobel rejects guile, for the most part. She prefers open honesty and straightforward action, but when necessary, is well capable of deception and manipulation, especially in her quest to spread the faith, or at least the ideals, of Gond. She knows people tend to fear technological advance, especially the advances that *matter*, and can be quite subtle about introducing them, though I think that lies outside the scope of this mod.

Willpower: Isobel will not be dissuaded by even intelligent and well-reasoned arguments against her. She knows what she believes, is confident and secure in those beliefs, and knows in her heart that she's right, even if she's entirely capable of intellectually admitting the possibility that she's wrong. She has a well developed intellectuality and spirituality, but the latter trumps the former in her.

Common Sense: See her record of accidents in invention. That said, she *knows* she's dealing with highly unstable chemical compounds and devices, and has accepted the risks versus potential gains to be acceptable. She considers it a bargain. Your mileage may vary.

Intuition: As far as Isobel is concerned, her intuition is good and has served her well. It has steered her towards the path of justice, creation, and invention-three things necessary for any society to thrive. Isobel considers it good sense and only logical to follow a rigid code of behavior, and it comes naturally to her to act according to such a code. To her, those who deliberately embark on paths of chaos do so for reasons that very rarely make sense, and considers chaos to be, well, chaos.

So sorry if my idea of wisdom as applied in Isobel is different from yours, but as far as I'm concerned, Isobel's high wisdom is fully justified. Viconia has an even higher wisdom, after all.
"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!" -Charname, Baldur's Gate 1

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#12 Kaeloree

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 04:56 PM

Whatever the character reasons, as a cleric, she needs to have high wisdom to be useful. That would be main factor for me, in any case. :)

#13 theacefes

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 06:36 PM

Is there a major difference in gameplay between 16 and 17 and/or will altering her current stats (they seem okay to me from a gameplaying pov) make a difference? I understand if people believe she should stay realistic but you don't want to end up with a sucky cleric either.

I enjoyed the banters. :)

Edited by theacefes, 30 June 2009 - 06:36 PM.

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#14 DDV

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:06 PM

IMO you should just go with the stats you originally had in mind. You had your reasons and they make for a strong character. If anyone really disagrees they can always adjust the stats in Shadow Keeper.

#15 Slyde

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 04:59 AM

This sounds like a really interesting NPC . . I can't wait to hear the Jan banters, they should be great!



EDIT 4: I think I have it worked out, and as usual I should have just shut my mouth, -Gond (Time of Troubles) falls to Lantan as a gnome, lantanna gnomes take him in, Gond is grateful & gives smokepowder to the gnomes,amount of gnomish Gond worshipers increase a lot (due to his form as a gnome), gnomish Gondites use their gnomish curiosity and make lots of new inventions on top of what Gondites already have, Lantan Gondite Gnomes become the face of technological advancement of the realms in both the game and in real life. It seems that the assumption that Lantan is ALL gnome is actually common, according to Google search that include forums, due to the lack of important human Lantan NPCs. And it seems that I should check what little I know about this stuff from the net etc. first. As such I have deleted all the other stuff to avoid confusion

Edited by Slyde, 02 July 2009 - 06:55 AM.

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#16 Tempest

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 05:12 AM

Weighing in on that point, Lantan is mostly human, as is Gond's priesthood, though gnomes are the second most common race in Lantan, and Gond's faith is slowly gaining acceptance among them. Gond's domains are Craft, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Metal, Planning, and Pride, and his portfolio is artifice, craft, construction, smithwork, and invention. 4E may have changed that, but in 3.5E, the Gondar priesthood is still mostly human.

That digression aside, it looks like an interesting idea, and I'll be watching with interest.

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#17 Solstice

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 06:28 AM

I'm working my way through tutorials on npc creation, and I think I'm settling into a voice for Isobel, so this may be a go. I don't have much time to work, given my one-year-old daughter, but this could turn into a very interesting project for me.
"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!" -Charname, Baldur's Gate 1

"Power corrupts. And absolute power is actually pretty neat." -Tom Clancy

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#18 berelinde

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 07:59 AM

Stats... the 16/17 debate... gah.

It doesn't make a difference in game. You don't get another spell bonus until 18.

In BG2, Viconia has a Wisdom of 18, but she's arguably the most impulsive character in the game. That doesn't make sense, considering that she allegedly has perfect wisdom. Aerie's wisdom is also incredibly high, but she's probably the most inexperienced character in the game. Anomen is given a wisdom of 12, but if I were to assign the stat, I'd put it at 10, max. And he gets a bonus of 4 when he passes his test, but his behavior isn't much more wise, if it is at all.

So the best we can do is laugh and say that the devs assumed that a human with average (10) wisdom went around sticking forks in electrical outlets, so these BG2 clerics are wise, compared to them.

Give her whatever wisdom you want. It won't make any less sense than BioWare.

Edit: there is precedent for giving mod NPCs artificially high stats, too, though you might want to avoid that route. Imoen, the foolish girl who gropes Keldorn and deliberately goads Valygar, is given a wisdom of 18 by Improved Anvil so that she can cast Wish more effectively. This might not be the model you want to emulate, though.

Edited by berelinde, 04 July 2009 - 08:02 AM.

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#19 Azkyroth

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 05:54 PM

Stats... the 16/17 debate... gah.

It doesn't make a difference in game. You don't get another spell bonus until 18.

In BG2, Viconia has a Wisdom of 18, but she's arguably the most impulsive character in the game. That doesn't make sense, considering that she allegedly has perfect wisdom. Aerie's wisdom is also incredibly high, but she's probably the most inexperienced character in the game. Anomen is given a wisdom of 12, but if I were to assign the stat, I'd put it at 10, max. And he gets a bonus of 4 when he passes his test, but his behavior isn't much more wise, if it is at all.

So the best we can do is laugh and say that the devs assumed that a human with average (10) wisdom went around sticking forks in electrical outlets, so these BG2 clerics are wise, compared to them.

Give her whatever wisdom you want. It won't make any less sense than BioWare.

Edit: there is precedent for giving mod NPCs artificially high stats, too, though you might want to avoid that route. Imoen, the foolish girl who gropes Keldorn and deliberately goads Valygar, is given a wisdom of 18 by Improved Anvil so that she can cast Wish more effectively. This might not be the model you want to emulate, though.


Meh. I guess, as long as you keep in mind what realistic writing for a character with stats like that would actually entail...

...then again, per the observations above, there's not much precedent for THAT from Bioware, either.

"Tyranny is a quiet thing at first, a prim and proper lady pursing her lips and shaking her head disapprovingly, asking, well what were you doing (wearing that dress, walking home at that hour, expressing those inappropriate thoughts) anyway? It's subtle and insidious, disguised as reasonable precautions which become more and more oppressive over time, until our lives are defined by the things we must avoid. She's easy enough to agree with, after all, she's only trying to help -- and yet she's one of the most dangerous influences we face, because if she prevails, it puts the raping, robbing, axe-wielding madmen of the world in complete control. Eventually they'll barely need to wield a thing, all they'll have to do is leer menacingly and we fall all over ourselves trying to placate them." -godlizard


#20 Solstice

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 06:44 PM

Azkyroth, I doubt your idea of what a character with a godlike wisdom score would act like and believe has much in common with what I believe a character with such a score would act like and believe, so please drop the point.

More relevant-I think I've got the hang of how to code a banter. This is the codified version of the Aerie chat-do I have this right?

CHAIN
IF
~CombatCounter(0)
InParty("SAKIso")
InParty("Aerie")
See("SAKIso")
!See ([ENEMY])
!StateCheck("Aerie",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)
!StateCheck("SAKIso",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)
Global("SAKIsoAerieTalk1","GLOBAL",0)~
THEN BAERIE SAKIsoAerieTalk1
~Isobel, m-may I ask you something?~ ~ DO ~SetGlobal("SAKIsoAerieTalk1","GLOBAL",1)~
== BSAKIso ~Certainly.~
== BAERIE ~Y-you?re a long way from h-home, aren?t you? D-do you ever miss your home?~
== BSAKIso ~Yes, though I doubt I?ve been away as long as you have. Are you homesick, Aerie?~
== BAERIE ~Y-yes, I suppose I am. I still see Faeyna-Dail in my dreams sometimes, and my mother?~
== BSAKIso ~Aerie, you don?t need to continue if you don?t want to. I understand how painful it can be to think of home, when it should be pleasant dreaming.~
== BAERIE ~You do?~
== BSAKIso ~Is it so surprising? People usually aren?t as different from one another as they think.~
== BAERIE ~Th-thank you, Isobel. Somehow, that thought makes me feel better, that I?m not so? different.~
EXIT

Edited by Solstice, 05 July 2009 - 08:05 PM.

"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!" -Charname, Baldur's Gate 1

"Power corrupts. And absolute power is actually pretty neat." -Tom Clancy

"Is it possible to take Favored Enemy: Forum Poster?" -Someone who shall remain anonymous