53 replies to this topic

[Markus Ramikin]

Yeah that makes sense. The reason I was surprised is that I've only just left Fhjull for the first time and he had not recognized me then. The dustman thing I thought was just a dustman contract I had signed in a past life.

Thanks!

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 15 October 2009 - 02:25 AM.

[Qwinn]

Okay, some slight alterations to what I said was going to happen previously:

Any time you let Trias go in Vhailor's presence (whether you redeemed him or not), Vhailor intercedes to kill him. Now, in addition to "Watch" and "Attack" options, you get a "Vhailor, stop!" option that does nothing. Afterwards, instead of only having the option to say "Just die already", you can also say "Damnit, Vhailor, do you realize what you've done?!" If you do so, Vhailor responds with the previously unused voiced line: ~Vhailor turns from Trias's corpse to face you squarely. *You are MERCIFUL and WEAK. STEEL your HEART before the disease SPREADS.* You can then reply ~"We'll discuss this later. Let's move on."~, and dialogue ends.

What's different? I previously had this only when you redeemed Trias, but there's no reason to be limited to only evil options in any situation (and it would be a lot of additional modification to limit it only to when you redeem him). Also, before I had Vhailor's response be *The HAND of JUSTICE shall NOT be stayed.*, but that line does get used elsewhere, and the *You are MERCIFUL and WEAK* line never gets used. Both seem equally appropriate to me in that situation, so might as well use the line that never gets used anywhere else.

Also, if Vhailor kills Trias, you can no longer get the Tattoo of the Redeemer, only the Betrayer. That fix is staying the same.

This is going into v4.0 which I'm working to release ASAP.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 22 December 2009 - 04:09 PM.

[Markus Ramikin]

when you redeemed Vhailor

What? How can you redeem Vhailor? Something I missed? (and what does he need redeeming for in the first place?)

So, you're still leaving NO watching helplessly as Vhailor reverses his decision? I guess I'm back to killing Vhailor off earlier or not recruiting him, as usual...

[Qwinn]

Aw, crap, I meant when you redeem Trias. Fixed it in the original.

So, you're still leaving NO watching helplessly as Vhailor reverses his decision?

Yep, pretty much. I liked my idea and thought perhaps since any kind of "good" option was left out that maybe something like that had been planned, but CM pretty much nixed that possibility. A good *dialogue* option was supposed to be there but missing, yes, and that's what I'm fixing, but there wasn't ever meant to be anything more than that.

Qwinn

[Markus Ramikin]

So what was that poll for if you're going to ignore its results so blatantly

A shame for that bit of dialogue you invented, too, it was quite fitting.

[Qwinn]

So what was that poll for if you're going to ignore its results so blatantly?

Well, at the time I did the poll, I had no idea I'd be finding out what the original intent was from the guy who actually coded up Trias's dialogue.

That said, the result I took most away from the poll was that they did -not- want any radical changes going in the Fixpack, but they wouldn't mind seeing those ideas implemented in a side mod. I've got ideas for two or three side mods I'd like to do eventually... just because I'm not doing them for this release doesn't mean I will absolutely never do them.

But both Colin McComb and the poll results do agree that what I plan on doing for the Fixpack is all that should go in the Fixpack.

A shame for that bit of dialogue you invented, too, it was quite fitting.

Which dialogue were you referring to here? The only thing not really getting implemented is the single line I wrote for "twice redeemed Trias" after you save him from Vhailor. (and, it turns out, I'd have to write a non-redeemed line as well, what would be said if you just got the info you wanted from Trias, let him go, and then Vhailor went nuts.) Anyways, is that single line what you're referring to?

Qwinn

[Markus Ramikin]

I meant this

"You have redeemed me twice this day, mortal. After all I have done, after I tried to end your existence, you slew your own companion in order to allow me the chance to atone for my deeds. I will not waste this opportunity that you have bought for me at such cost to yourself." A look of shame crosses his face. "Your actions have reminded me of what I once knew to be the meaning of goodness and law. You deserve this blade more than I. Perhaps, if my father forgives me, I may someday earn the right to wield another. Farewell, mortal." TNO Response existing line: "Best of luck, Trias. Farewell."

This isn't "a single line" . Unless I am being dumb, this is what would have happened had the NO been able to stop Vhailor, right?

Well as long there's hope for it being implemented as a side mod, consider me appeased.

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 26 December 2009 - 03:08 AM.

[Freddy]

Regardless of the option taken, if Vhailor kills Trias, then you will only get the Betrayer tat, you will no longer get the Redeemer tat. (His argument for that is one I can comfortably agree with).

Oh, so that's why I couldn't get both the tattoo and celestial fire. This surprised me because you manage to redeem him by changing his views so he plans to go back to seek forgiveness and change his ways, and then you get branded a betrayer because someone else kills him?

Betrayal requires intent for it to be betrayal, so unless TNO purposely kills him... Vhailor losing it doesn't mean TNO betrayed anyone.

Even though you brought Vhailor there, it isn't betrayal. I would argue that you should only get the betrayer tattoo if you purposely strike him down after you promised not to, so I think the fix went after the wrong tattoo.

Edited by Freddy, 03 August 2010 - 10:09 AM.

[Freddy]

Of course, the issue with redeeming as well as killing Trias in my opinion is that both lead to the same effect:

The freeing of Fhjull Forked-Tongue.

Spoiler

Him being held by Trias was one of the reasons why your debt to the Blood War was never collected on, not to mention the fact the contract exists. Once you merge with or destroy TTO you regain your place in the multiverse and mortality and thus... you get ripped to the Blood War.

This actually makes me think there was supposed to be another ending but they didn't have time for it. If you strike tris down he warns:

Spoiler

Know you have damned yourself. In killing me you have shattered the last shield you have against the horrors that will consume you. The fiend I tricked... He is now free

You would think getting Fjull killed or keeping him imprisoned would keep that "last shield" up.

[Sergio]

was this integrated in the end?

[Isewein]

A glaring lacuna in the game indeed. Shame we will never see these creative ideas implemented.