53 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

At this point, I'm interpreting the third-option votes as a vote for the minimal method (which just adds meaningless but not-as-evil responses) in the fixpack, and the actual expanded options in UB. If someone intends something -other- than that by their vote, please do let me know in a post.

Qwinn

[Gumby]

At this point, I'm interpreting the third-option votes as a vote for the minimal method (which just adds meaningless but not-as-evil responses) in the fixpack, and the actual expanded options in UB.

Sounds good to me.

[Tassadar88]

At this point, I'm interpreting the third-option votes as a vote for the minimal method (which just adds meaningless but not-as-evil responses) in the fixpack, and the actual expanded options in UB. If someone intends something -other- than that by their vote, please do let me know in a post.
Qwinn

What I was going to suggest. And I am curious if the "Just die already" will still be present in the minimal fix? That aside, I think that most people who are going to play with the FP are going to use the UB as well anyway.

[Qwinn]

What I was going to suggest. And I am curious if the "Just die already" will still be present in the minimal fix?

Yes. I won't be removing it, I will just be adding an option so you aren't -forced- to act evil after redeeming Trias.

That aside, I think that most people who are going to play with the FP are going to use the UB as well anyway.

Considering "most" as "> 50%", I agree, but actually UB has a significantly lower download count than the Fixpack. It seems that around 28% of people who enjoy the Fixpack aren't interested in UB, for whatever reason.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 12 June 2009 - 11:47 PM.

[Kung Fu Man]

Wow I'm...really quite surprised nobody suggested it, but having a scenario where, no matter what, if Vhailor's in an earshot of the conversation you end up stuck with a dead Trias, the player is effectively being punished for having him in their party. Strictly speaking giving an option to fight Vhailor to defend Trias seems kind of the same.

The best outcome? Shouting at Vhailor something like "Vhailor, WAIT!" would be enough to distract the Mercykiller long enough for Trias to teleport out of there. Trias teleports out of there pretty quickly after your conversation ends naturally, doesn't he? So most likely, and reasonably, he's just about ready too before Vhailor's on top of him. As for the aftermath, chrome dome would probably not be too pleased, but wouldn't kill over it: he's aware of TNO's own quest.

Cons:
-No real proof this was the intended option

Pros:
+Cleanest method, minimal work
+Vhailor doesn't die, party doesn't hate themselves for having him along

Edited by Kung Fu Man, 16 June 2009 - 09:58 PM.

[Qwinn]

Kung Fu Man:

It's an interesting idea, but by the standards I've adopted it's nor really a very clean method. To me, "clean" means not having to write new dialogue. I think your idea here would require more new dialogue than my plans for either the Fixpack or UB. Or, if not -require- it, if we didn't add some dialogue to explain what happened it would be a very abrupt ending.

As for whether the game "punishes" you for bringing Vhailor, I think in the original game most people consider it -rewarding- you. It lets you get both the Tattoo of the Redeemer and Tattoo of the Betrayer, both of which are exceptionally good tattoos. Too rewarding, really, if you ask me, heh.

Qwinn

[Kung Fu Man]

At most, it'd require one new entry: Vhailor pauses, Trias takes off. The alternatives of "let Trias be killed or kill off Vhailor to protect him" still seem like punishing the party in a game that emphasizes brains over brute force.

At the moment the only choice given to people to keep Trias alive with chrome dome in their party is to shove him well beyond the door. It does come across something more as an optional UB addon to modify that, but an out option just makes more sense to me than "kill ally".

[Qwinn]

*nod* Okay, I see what you're saying about not needing too much new dialogue, I suppose it could be done that way. Still, I'm not liking it.

I justify the way I've envisioned it in this way:

The problem with the vanilla game isn't that Vhailor or Trias are acting "incorrectly", it is that it is restricting TNO's options. The game makes it clear that, if you do nothing, Vhailor can interrupt Trias from leaving. I don't see Vhailor on the warpath as interruptable with a mere yell. Vhailor on the warpath is not "distractable"... you certainly can't stop him with a yell in any other dialogue where he goes hostile (including at the beginning of the Carceri Trias encounter). He operates along the lines of "unstoppable killing machine"... well, not unstoppable maybe, but certainly unpersuadable. Vhailor generally isn't interested in appeals to mercy. He'd judged Trias at that point, and his whole nature is going to be pretty single-minded about delivering his punishment for that verdict.

As for the aftermath, chrome dome would probably not be too pleased, but wouldn't kill over it: he's aware of TNO's own quest.

I disagree. Vhailor doesn't give a fig for TNO's quest. Nor is he even properly an "ally". Vhailor cares about *JUSTICE*, and that's it. You derail his quest for JUSTICE in any way, and he's going to punish you for it.

I realize you're looking at the consideration of what would make the player feel good about the encounter. I'm not interested in that, except insofar as providing the player the option to do -something- in character, which is lacking now for good TNO's. Doesn't mean the outcome has to be beneficial to the player. I think it is in character for everyone involved that, in those circumstances, there is no "great" option, there is only the option to let Vhailor kill Trias, or to kill Vhailor. What you're suggesting would "soften" Vhailor in a way that I don't think is appropriate to his very single-minded character.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 June 2009 - 09:40 AM.

[Qwinn]

Alright, good news and bad news.

Bad news is, I probably won't be doing the fight-Vhailor mod. Or, maybe I will someday if there's a lot of desire for it, but right now it's a lot lower on my priority list.

The good news is that this is because I got a hold of, and got the scoop, from Colin McComb, original PS:T designer and the guy who actually coded up the whole Trias dialogue So this is pretty much canon as far as I'm concerned, heh

Turns out, it -was- an error that the good dialogue was left out, and he has tendered his apologies for it. He's given me permission to quote some of the email exchange regarding what actually went on with this bit and how it should be fixed, and I will post it soon, so stay tuned.

In the meantime, what I will reveal for now is this: It's going to be pretty much the "minimal" option, mainly a non-functional "Stop, Vhailor!". Regardless of the option taken, if Vhailor kills Trias, then you will only get the Betrayer tat, you will no longer get the Redeemer tat. (His argument for that is one I can comfortably agree with).

I sent Colin a proposed dialogue to fill the gap, and gave him the total option to rewrite it as he sees fit... like I said, I'm considering whatever he decides here to be canon. One way or the other, I'll be posting his explanation of what went on there and his explanation for how it should be (which I will implement) soonish.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Ok, so here's what Colin had to say about this issue.

On why a good option was missing in the first place:

So: not a technical issue, but a design/story issue. As to why we didn't build out the "hey, leave him alone!" option... I'll take the blame for that, since I was responsible for Trias's dialogue. You're right, I should have done more with it - that was an obvious hole that should have been covered. Looking at my original docs, I see that I even have "Stop, Vhailor!" in the dialogue options... and then, apparently, I finished the doc at work, and didn't keep a copy for home, because the linked dialogue goes to an empty box in my dialogue sheet.

Whoops.

So this is officially a ten-years-overdue apology for that part.

I don't mind being named for this argument. People are also free to disagree with the logic behind it, if they want.

And how it should go now:

Personally, I'd go with the "Stop, Vhailor!" option (but not the Stop Vhailor, if you see what I mean), have Vhailor ignore the player's command, and then kill Trias. Following this, include Trias's "some day my cause etc" line, and then he dies. TNO gets the Betrayer tat (yeah, I know, there's the death stroke argument - but Trias is dead, and the player is directly responsible for it by bringing Vhailor to the Betrayer).

Letting Trias escape... well, I don't like it. The player makes a choice to have the unstoppable judgment of Vhailor in his party, and sometimes the choices people make prevent them from obtaining optimal solutions.

Personally, I've no wish to argue with his logic here. It seems a perfectly reasonable argument to me... and I'm happy that it allows me to resolve the Can Get Both Tattoos issue in the Fixpack as well.

There's really no place for me to insert the "some day my cause shall be honored" line, since the dialogue specifically denotes his every word from Vhailor's stroke until "the light vanishes from his eyes". I've sent Colin my most recent writeup for the dialogue following the "Stop, Vhailor!" and given him full opportunity to flesh that out as he sees fit. No response yet, but we had some email delivery issues earlier, so might just be he didn't get it... I'll follow up in a bit, but if he declines to do any dialogue writing himself, I'll go with the plan as I sent it to him.

Which, for the record, is this:

Trias: He opens his mouth for an angry retort... and pauses, reflecting. He bows his head. "You speak convincing words, mortal, and their wisdom pierces me. I shall seek the forgiveness of my fathers, and accept any retribution they choose. Take this, and farewell, mortal. If we meet again, it is my hope that I will be redeemed."
TNO: "Best of luck, Trias. Farewell." (no other option)
Vhailor: "*The deva shall NOT walk free. No matter your vow, JUSTICE must be SERVED.*"
TNO: "Watch." or "Attack the deva." or "Vhailor, stop!" All lead to same result.
Trias: Vhailor strikes him down, shattering the bones of his proud face, bloodying his immaculate form. With his dying strength, Trias says, "Know that you have damned yourself. In killing me, you have shattered the last shield that you have against the horrors that will consume you. The fiend I tricked... he is now free..." His weak chuckle trickles off, and the light vanishes from his eyes.
TNO: "Just die already." or new dialogue line: ~"Dammit, Vhailor! Do you realize what you've done?"~
Vhailor: ~Vhailor turns from Trias's corpse to face you squarely. *The HAND of JUSTICE shall NOT be stayed.*~ (Voiced... this is also his last line in the Fortress if you merge with TO, but it seems a particularly appropriate line here, good enough to justify reusing it. Might as well be his motto anyway.)
TNO: ~"We'll discuss this some other time. Let's move on."~ (Existing line I found elsewhere in the dialogue file)

Since we now know that a more developed Actually Stop Vhailor branch was never planned, I'll probably not do a UB version of it. Maybe if I ever do a "Qwinn's Totally Original and Highly Unofficial Little Mods Pack" mod, but that won't be until the existing mods have gone stable and finalized, most likely.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 23 June 2009 - 06:44 PM.

[Gumby]

And how it should go now:

Personally, I'd go with the "Stop, Vhailor!" option (but not the Stop Vhailor, if you see what I mean), have Vhailor ignore the player's command, and then kill Trias. Following this, include Trias's "some day my cause etc" line, and then he dies. TNO gets the Betrayer tat (yeah, I know, there's the death stroke argument - but Trias is dead, and the player is directly responsible for it by bringing Vhailor to the Betrayer).

Letting Trias escape... well, I don't like it. The player makes a choice to have the unstoppable judgment of Vhailor in his party, and sometimes the choices people make prevent them from obtaining optimal solutions.

Personally, I've no wish to argue with his logic here. It seems a perfectly reasonable argument to me... and I'm happy that it allows me to resolve the Can Get Both Tattoos issue in the Fixpack as well.

Agreed. It's like talking to Sigil prostitutes while having Annah in party...

Good job for getting in touch with Colin, btw. *thumbs up*

Maybe if I ever do a "Qwinn's Totally Original and Highly Unofficial Little Mods Pack" mod,

LOL!

[gothemasticator]

Qwinn,

Great job figuring out a solution!

The "Dammit..." line and Vhailor's voiced follow-up are perfect.

gothemasticator

[Tassadar88]

Cool work, Qwinn !

Your work on PST is my dreams come true, *know* that if you needed assistance with whatever I could help you out with, I´ll be more than happy to.

Since we now know that a more developed Actually Stop Vhailor branch was never planned, I'll probably not do a UB version of it. Maybe if I ever do a "Qwinn's Totally Original and Highly Unofficial Little Mods Pack" mod, but that won't be until the existing mods have gone stable and finalized, most likely.

[Hannibal]

Skimming through this, I'm very much for the minimalist option to be included like you proposed, and also the tattoo fix.

That said, one option I wish there was in that dialogue would be to convince Vhailor to back off. (with a fairly high CHA check) I mean, you can convince him that Justice is meaningless too, so why not that?

Trias himself says: "I shall seek the forgiveness of my fathers, and accept any retribution they choose." Letting his punshment be decided by his peers seems pretty just to me, and it isn't farfetched to assume TNO could convince Vhailor of that too. Naturally, Big V would make an ominous threat to Trias that he'll hunt him down if his punishment turns out to not be severe enough.

[gothemasticator]

That said, one option I wish there was in that dialogue would be to convince Vhailor to back off. (with a fairly high CHA check) I mean, you can convince him that Justice is meaningless too, so why not that?

I think it's too much a heat-of-the-moment situation with Trias for TNO to pull off some high CHA dialogue trickery. Just standing around discussing stuff, sure, but Vhailor isn't going to halt a death charge to listen to anybody's rhetoric.

gothemasticator

[Arakhor]

I think I agree with Gothemasticator. I always disliked Vhailor for being the worst sort of Mercykiller there is and ruining my subtle game with his mechanical hanging justice, but even Nameless probably can't persuade the incarnation of blind justice itself to drop this matter in less than a few seconds.

[Markus Ramikin]

I'm very glad I found this thread before I progressed past Vhailor with my current playthrough. Guess I'll do like I typically did before - get rid of Vhailor fast as an uncontrollable maniac, just as I tend to do with Ignus.

Not having an option to stop Vhailor was always annoying to me, to the point that I rarely chose to take Vhailor with me. I tend to play my NO as a man who intends to dispense his will on a situation rather than watch helplessly (let's just say, Ignus never survives long after he's recruited when I'm playing like that ). So when Vhailor decides to kill Trias after NO promised him life, that is an outrage my NO shouldn't have to just stand for, no matter what the Word of God is on the situation. It's also outrageous to think that my 25 Wis 24 Int NO would not see this coming to react in time...

As for whether the game "punishes" you for bringing Vhailor, I think in the original game most people consider it -rewarding- you. It lets you get both the Tattoo of the Redeemer and Tattoo of the Betrayer, both of which are exceptionally good tattoos. Too rewarding, really, if you ask me, heh.

That's a weird standard of what is "rewarding" to use on Planescape:Torment of all games (as compared to, say, Diablo II) For me, "rewarding" means unlocking different possibilities, dialogues and discoveries. So yes, the game "punishes" you here for taking Vhailor, because it limits your options, your ability to affect the overall outcome of the confrontation with Trias. Who gives a damn about tattoos...

I think I agree with Gothemasticator. I always disliked Vhailor for being the worst sort of Mercykiller there is and ruining my subtle game with his mechanical hanging justice, but even Nameless probably can't persuade the incarnation of blind justice itself to drop this matter in less than a few seconds.

Oh sure he could. With a lightning bolt to the head.

[Markus Ramikin]

Spoiler

The reason for this is because your First Incarnation signed the Blood War contract with Fhjull in the first place. Him being held by Trias was one of the reasons why your debt to the Blood War was never collected on, not to mention the fact the contract exists. Once you merge with or destroy TTO you regain your place in the multiverse and mortality and thus... you get ripped to the Blood War.

This is interesting, actually. How do we know this?

As to the rest of your post, well, argumentum ad consequentiam