41 replies to this topic

[kozand]

Really? I post so many posts currently.... If it was not u, just disregard that statement of my post.

[kozand]

Although if it is not a burden for u recieving some feedback from u about my Imoen concept would be appreciated Quitch.

[Quitch]

a) Imoen does not have a darker side in BG but Sarevok event and Irenicus slowly made her darker.

I don't know about Sarevok, I don't think he had any profound effect, but Irenicus did. Rather than making her darker, it simply removed the innocence she had carried with her. I wouldn't say it's a dark side, rather extreme shock at seeing all the things she was blind to before.

Enough to make anyone moody.

c) Imoen also became a champion of good though in a very neutral and personal way. She is a solitary archmage afterall not a paladin of some knight order.

I don't see Imoen as a leader. She does what is right, because it seems right to her. If she were evil, she's the kind of person who'd kill simply because they felt like it. She operates on the micro, not macro level. In the end, the girl just wants to have fun.

When Imoen was living in Candlekeep, Tethtoril was secretly studying magic. Although magical studies is not prohibited in the keep it required Ulraunt's permission. One day Imoen saw Tethtoril (as a rogue she has her night escapades). She nicely blackmailed him by threatening to tell his studies to Ulraunt. And thus she became multi class in 3ed terms.

Her innocence would never let her blackmail anyone. I think she'd be shocked that anyone dared break the rules within a mile of Garren. I suspect she'd tell the player in hushed, shocked tones. There would of course be a slight element of pride in that she knew before the player and Gorion. "Perhaps he can persuade Puffguts to let me off chores for a day?"

Imoen is NOT thief in my opinion. Please use Rogue concept to full extend. A thief is a simple burglar. But a rogue is something different a broader term. I analysed this in my novel. She is a bit cleptomaniac. She loves to steal things just for fun but like Robin Hood. At first she does not care much but then she becomes more careful and considering about results of her actions. Afterall pointless petty thievery would cause the party be persecuted or despised since a Bhaalspawn is generally disliked. And all the suffering she saw has thought her to be responsible toward people. So Imoen is a Rogue. A spy, eye pryer, cleptomaniac type.

To me Imoen IS a thief. With the number of merchants coming and going at Candlekeep, and considering the small space available, the only thing for her to do with this career was pickpocket the rich. Her low skill in this respect would reflect that she really hasn't had proper experience, and probably treated it more as a game than anything else.

She is certainly no rogue in my eyes. She's a pickpocket. She is only really employed for traps, but her deft fingers were trained by the cutting of purses...

Although I use 3ed rules now I would like to add this ad&d rule as a character trait: Dual class. She was first a thief (rogue) and she lost her professional interest and became a Mage. But since she wonders everything 1 She retained her thieving skills but uses them as an adventurer. 2 She became a generic mage. Since she is an adventurer mage, not a scholar or lonely tower mage.

Since she still has her thief skills, I would say it isn't a case of losing interest (and there's nothing professional about Imoen), rather that she felt drawn to magic. As has been noted, Imoen isn't the type to study, so it is fair to assume she has found she has a natural gift for magic, partly because of her high intelligence, and partly because... well, she doesn't know why.

In according to BG2 material Winthrop thought her to hide in shadows. I did not elaborate this in my novels but I plan to speculate and add this in future.

Big fat man teaches her to hide? Hah! The only way Winthrop will have taught her is if she was hiding FROM him (and his chores).

About Imoen's heterosexuality. Imoen had used to flee from Candlekeep at night, visiting nearby hamlets and villages. Choosing some handsome guys whom she saw during daylight when they come to Candlekeep to sell their goods. She had used to use her cantrips and invisibilty to charm hunks (even some burrowed magical cloaks or rigns or such) and well... have intimate relationship.

I wouldn't think that this was very Imoen. During her Candlekeep years she still strikes me as a sort of "Boys? Urghh!" kind of person. Considering the number of novels she reads, I would wager that someone would need to ride in and sweep her off her feet. She certainly wouldn't go looking for sex IMO.

[kozand]

Thank u for answering. Alas we have very different views of Imoen. I cannot help u there.

I agree with a)

c) No I meant Imoen as a whole BG1 > BG2 > TOB > TOB epilogue. She is not a leader in start of BG 2, she is a lonely wolf but she will be head of a big thieves guild (TOB) epilogue. She is a manipulator. Imoen Romance mod interpratation is closer to mine.

blackmail: well I don't think she is THAT innocent. She is more like a kender and mischievious halfling in my eyes. And blackmail... well she did not threaten to kill or ruin life of anybody. Taken by sudden impulse she scared Tethtoril a bit that's all. technically blackmail -lexicon- but more like an innocent joke!

rogue vs thief. we are talking about the same thing but we understand different things when we say thief. For me thief is burglar and thug and evil. Rogue is somewhat random, noble and Imoen like. I take it as a PC class. And Imoen becomes a guild leader in future and her origins should be mentioned in BG2 to make her char development realistic. Otherwise I agree with your analysis.

I strongly disagree, although Imoen seems random she does know a lot about lore stuff and Bhaal. Identifying and all. She had used to read. And she is not a sorcerer, but mage. Magecraft requires careful and regular study. I think she reads and reads much but her style is free. She does not like lessons but doing her own research. But she mentions Candlekeep books always. She talks much about Bhaal lore even when PC is ignorant.

Well u can do nothing about it. Yes, big fat man. Just begin BG2 anew read her first dialogue while talking to PC for the first time. Though I agree, it seems weird. Maybe she learned hiding in order to avoid Winthrop and his chores?

As for boys... Let's say my Imoen is not SO naive but she is appearing naive. But her Sarevok months and BG2 tortures changed her deeply. Realy a childish character does not mean a totally indifferent, just living for fun, low wisdom and irresponsible character. I don't think such naive NPCs can help PC. Minsc? Nah! He maybe crazy but not fool! He knows to travel land and survive alone!

Nonono! She did read those sex tomes Quitch! She tells this Anomen in TOB! No naive person would do that and certainly nobody would remained naive after that unless she was mentally retarded.

I understand your point and u think I cannot catch the essence of Imoen. I think your Imoen did not catch the essence of Imoen instead. Nothing to discuss here I am afraid. But maybe I can give u some other ideas to be accepted in future.

Take care.

[Ishinglyed]

Wh-aaat? dont tell me no one is going to reply to me now that im all registered and what-not. Well, maybe i should just be patient.

[kozand]

Just for indulging u: I agree.

[Nithalor]

Well, don't even know where to start, but I'll try and make you understand me. Or something. Hmm. Needs to darken my room so I can be in peace...

I've played the games about 20 times, read many novels and such, so I am not someone who don't know what I'm talking about. Now here's how I see Imoen, and what I disagree with you on.

Before I start, I just must say that I've always though that the PC is Imoens older brother/sister, not younger... Can be my mistake, but are you 100% sure that she's older?

To begin with, Quitch, your analyse of Imoen seems pretty good. The only thing I disagree with is that "hide in shadows"-thing that the other guy already told you about. The other thing is the way Imoen refers to herself.

No sir, little Imoen just scouts ahead
and
Yep, poor little Imoen is just gonna have to live in your shadow
is new to me. I've never heard Imoen refer to herself as little, not as I can remember anyway.

One more thing about it too, Imoen looks really happy. This novel seems to be happening at the beginning of BG2, and according to me lost Imoen his happyness somewhere in BG1. Pretty fast, too. Wrong mood in the wrong place, I'd say.

Now, let's move down to where you guys are diskussiong different stuff...

Leader?
Definatly not. Imoen never ever says that she's willing to be a leader, but she does say that she isn't fit for the leadership if you put her in charge. Then, 'fcource, she says that she'll try her best anyway. Typically Imoen. Well I've never seen Imoen as a leader, for me she's the charakter that stays back whenever things are happening in the environment. She prefers to help the others, not to make the big part herself.

Blackmail? She's very capable of doing blackmail, but it must be to the right person. She could really blackmail somone if it is for a good purpose, like if the blackmailed is a murderer, a really greedy merchand, or otherwise mean person. She wouldn't even thing the though of blackmailing innocent people for money.

Thief or Rogue? Don't have much to add to this one. She's a thief, but she'd never say it herself. She knows all the things that a thief do, only that she's not using them for evil, wich marks a thief... Kind of. Argh. Nevermind this one, peoples...

Last, and the most interesting part: The secret meetings with nice boys in Candlekeep part.
Here I totally agree with Quitch. I tried to imagine the story you told(kozand), and no, hehe, only cause I needed to see if it was realistic. And no, it wasn't There's no way I can see Imoen doing such a thing. The first meeting with her was that she was to innocent, to childish.

I know that there's nothing that we can know for sure, and the charakter Imoen surley differs from person to person, but that's the way I have known Imoen from all hours I've spent in front of this, the best game ever (well, it will have to share a place with Planescape: Torment), and nothing can change that.

Anyway. I'm leaving Imoen as I know her, and I won't be writing or making any changes in the game. That's one thing I can't really understand about people such as you two, writing and mixing with the game... You don't need to know everything. There's some thing in BG that I don't understand, and charakter that I know very well, but I leave it after I've played the game. Some things is best the way they end, and BG are such a thing.

Much talk here... Hmm... Must be tired, excuse me. Gotta go replay to some else post...

[Quitch]

Before I start, I just must say that I've always though that the PC is Imoens older brother/sister, not younger... Can be my mistake, but are you 100% sure that she's older?

She's not, she's younger. Both the PC and Imoen are 20 (or were in BG) and Imoen is the younger of the two. Incidently, Jaheira is 20 as well (surprises most people). However, Imoen uses this as her pet name for the PC (see first post).

No sir, little Imoen just scouts ahead
and
Yep, poor little Imoen is just gonna have to live in your shadow
is new to me. I've never heard Imoen refer to herself as little, not as I can remember anyway.

I'm pretty sure she refers to herself in the third person, but I'd need to check, so you may be right.

One more thing about it too, Imoen looks really happy. This novel seems to be happening at the beginning of BG2, and according to me lost Imoen his happyness somewhere in BG1. Pretty fast, too. Wrong mood in the wrong place, I'd say.

For her descent into near maddness at the beginning? I agree. As I said, this is more to judge my writing than anything else. When the post was originally put up, it was a mish mash of places. I really didn't worry too much about setting. My positon on this was pretty much stated in an earlier post.

[Nithalor]

Well I'm tired and angry cause I just spilled 1 litre of Loka all over my keyboard, and it don't work, so even since I read the whole thread I must have missed some part, my apologies.

But what I meant with Imoen was that she don't call herself "little", or at least I don't remember she's ever used that.

I'm reading through the Imoen straith/bi/lesbian-topic right now... I'm on page 2... Seems people really has found something to discuss. be back @ that topic soon...

[Luvian]

Nonono! She did read those sex tomes Quitch! She tells this Anomen in TOB!  No naive person would do that and certainly nobody would remained naive after that unless she was mentally retarded. 

Keep in mind that Baldur's Gate is happening in a medieval setting, and while commoners might be a little loser with rules of etiquette than nobles, having sex before mariage at that time was not really accepted. Especially for people living in a monastery.

Sure, she might have read such novels, but I'm pretty sure she is not the kind of person to go have sex with the first cute random guard.

She was also probably reading them in secret, too. She also must have been feeling all rebel for reading those. Much like a teenager who go to a party without permission.

Edit: Also keep in mind that there was no birth control or real abortion back then. Most single female didn't really go around having sex for fun as they might do these days.

[Quitch]

But what I meant with Imoen was that she don't call herself "little", or at least I don't remember she's ever used that.

If you mean "How do you know she is younger?" then it's because she says so in the first conversation you have with her. If you mean calling YOU little brother/sister, then she does it if you kick her out the party later in the game and then come to collect her.

[mickeyblueeyessj]

Incidently, Jaheira is 20 as well (surprises most people).

I must say I was surprised. The game made it seem that she was a lot older and it seemed to me she would be since she's been long time friends with Gorion.

Where did you find this out? I've been trying to find out her age for a while now.

[mickeyblueeyessj]

About Imoen's heterosexuality. Imoen had used to flee from Candlekeep at night, visiting nearby hamlets and villages. Choosing some handsome guys whom she saw during daylight when they come to Candlekeep to sell their goods. She had used to use her cantrips and invisibilty to charm hunks (even some burrowed magical cloaks or rigns or such) and well... have intimate relationship.

I wouldn't think that this was very Imoen. During her Candlekeep years she still strikes me as a sort of "Boys? Urghh!" kind of person. Considering the number of novels she reads, I would wager that someone would need to ride in and sweep her off her feet. She certainly wouldn't go looking for sex IMO.

I have to agree with Quitch here. To me, Imoen seems like someone who keeps people from getting close to her despite her friendly nature.

She grew up with the PC and developed a strong bond with the PC and that is good enough for her.

The only male I can see Imoen actually being interested in is the PC, but only if the PC is male. You know, like in the movies how when two people from diferrent genders grow up as best friends, one of them develops a romantic interest in the other when they get older. But of course, Imoen would quickly lose those feelings once she finds out your her brother.

[Quitch]

Incidently, Jaheira is 20 as well (surprises most people).

I must say I was surprised. The game made it seem that she was a lot older and it seemed to me she would be since she's been long time friends with Gorion.

Where did you find this out? I've been trying to find out her age for a while now.

Dave Gaider, lead designer of BG2. Probably got mention during the development of Ascension, though he may have said this on one of the forums... I don't remember. He also said that he had always thought of her as around 30 (in human terms).

[mickeyblueeyessj]

Is there a difference between elven years and human years?

[TheBalor]

Is there a difference between elven years and human years?

It depends on who you ask. An elf, according to D&D 3e, is considered an adult at around age 100. Whether this is due to the extremely slow pace of elven society, or an actual biological difference is up to debate.

[fallen_demon]

Actually, the Realms is only a medieval setting in terms of the technology level and general appearence. Not a whole lot else is similar at all. Remember, Faerun is not Earth 500 years ago, but a different world with different religions and morals.

earth 500 years ago wasn't really medival either, but i get your point.

[Kaeloree]

I'd have thought Jaheira was at LEAST 40, being a half-elf!

Kinda funny, considering she was married to Khalid for how many years?


On another note, I reckon this is a wonderful idea for a mod! I would DEFINATELY download this. Good luck!