32 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

Two components, one that treats Morte as an undead and makes only 4 deaths possible. Another that introduces additional dialog in UB and replaces the one in the fixpack?

Nah, I'm not gonna go the two route thing on every arguable decision. It's a bug and it'll get fixed in the Fixpack. I'm not interested enough in the issue to actually -mod- it.

Now, what you're suggesting as the Fixpack component is an interesting idea, but has one fly in the ointment. I actually kinda agree that the most fitting overall solution to the conflict of Morte never dying and the lore is that Morte shouldn't give you a life, and we could justify this on the basis that Morte is undead. But, so is Vhailor. I notice you said "4 deaths possible" as the max, which would be Dak'kon, Grace, Annah and Nordom, all of whom are alive by any conventional definition, I'd say. Morte and Vhailor are not, really. If only we could consider Ignus undead, then yeah, I'd probably be inclined to say that only the 4 living PC's can grant you extra lives, and you lose those lives as they die in the fortress.

But, I'm pretty sure that technically Ignus -isn't- dead. Thus, he ought to be able to die in your place (even if you are the delayed delivery method of the death that replaces yours). So we've still got an issue there.

Note also that the initial count of how many lives you get seems to be done in the engine, so we'd need Scient to tweak that, assuming we decide to do so. And at this point he's been gone so long, I'm hoping scient is alive, okay and we get to see him again someday.

Qwinn

P.S. Oh, I'm dropping the whole Lim-Lim thing, by the way. That was just a misconception on my part. The NMP kills the Lim-Lim soon as you enter it, and it'll stay that way.

Edited by Qwinn, 19 June 2009 - 03:21 PM.

[nevill]

Note also that the initial count of how many lives you get seems to be done in the engine

I don't remember that part well (or at all), but since you know how many lives you get via engine (1 life for every party member up to 6), you can ajust the number through the scripts, right? And there you can do everything you want based on whom you have in the party.

Am I missing something?

Edited by nevill, 19 June 2009 - 04:10 PM.

[Qwinn]

Well, IE scripting isn't the best place in the world to do anything resembling math, heh.

But yeah, I should be able to zero it out and repopulate it after it gets set without too many problems. Good point.

In fact, in theory, I could say that Ignus gives an extra life and Vhailor doesn't in such scripting, though that would be an advantage for good/neutral TNO's that I would have a hard time introducing, even if it is the most logical resolution to the issues.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 19 June 2009 - 04:14 PM.

[nevill]

Well, IE scripting isn't the best place in the world to do anything resembling math, heh.

Being a mathematician, I don't have any problems with that. I can come up with the code if I know what exactly needs to be done.

But trere are quite a few issues concerning the Fortress and the number of lives. How is was supposed to work?

I always was under impression that once a curse of TNO is at work, there is no way to return the one who died to life, even with a resurrection spell. But that may be just my imagination. Most important, I can't figure out the logic behind the whole multiple lives thing. You start with 6 lives for a party of six. You die 5 times. Then you still have 1 life left. Then you see cutscenes with your comrades dying. What should happen then? The most logical thing would be - nothing. No change is supposed to happen because you have those lives for the sole reason they died then (I'm not talking whether it happened before or after). Raising OR reducing the number of available lives would be like applying a second effect to the cause.

Otherwise you can end up with the negative number of lives.

So, the only ways that make sense to me would be doing something along these lines:

1) You start out with the amount of spare lives equal to the number of party members, except you don't get an extra life for Morte, Vhailor or yourself. As for yours:

In fact, in theory, I could say that Ignus gives an extra life and Vhailor doesn't in such scripting, though that would be an advantage for good/neutral TNO's that I would have a hard time introducing, even if it is the most logical resolution to the issues.

I'd say 1 life is not that a big deal and I would much prefer logic over any kind of advantage/disadvantage. Isn't your alignment mod introducing even bigger disadvantages for those who like murdering innocents (if being a CE may be considered a disadvantage, of course)?

2) The amount of lives you get does not change in any way, expect for dying.

Much better way (but it probably doesn't belong to FixPack):
1) You start out with zero lives. If you die - you die for good.
2) You gain a life every time one of your living party member dies during a cutscene.
2a) You lose a life for each party member resurrected for the last battle. Balance in all things, yeah.

P.S. What should logically (that is, not in the game itself ) happen if your party members died prematurely (not by the hand of TTO)? What should happen when they are resurrected? Isn't it some kind of perpetuum mobile if you don't lose a life?

Edited by nevill, 20 June 2009 - 02:35 AM.

[Qwinn]

I always was under impression that once a curse of TNO is at work, there is no way to return the one who died to life, even with a resurrection spell. But that may be just my imagination.

It's an understandable assumption... supposedly if someone replaces you in death, they become a shadow, and you'd think it'd be hard to get raised from that. But game mechanics demonstrate that your Raise Dead power is in fact strong enough to do so.

Much better way (but it probably doesn't belong to FixPack):
1) You start out with zero lives. If you die - you die for good.
2) You gain a life every time one of your living party member dies during a cutscene.

....

My head hurts. I don't see how this makes any sense at all. Is there some in-game lore I've missed that explains why this keeps getting suggested? It contradicts everything I'm aware of.

Otherwise you can end up with the negative number of lives.

Assuming this doesn't break things from a technical standpoint, I don't have a problem with it. Getting to a negative number of lives via dying and then cutscenes, I'd expect the only consequence to that would be that... the next time you die, you die for real. Same whether you're at 0 lives or -2 lives. Doesn't really matter, AFAICT.

I always was under impression that once a curse of TNO is at work, there is no way to return the one who died to life, even with a resurrection spell. But that may be just my imagination.

Resurrecting your friends for the final fight doesn't give you additional lives. You die once in battle with TO, you're done. I think we can just assume that any single individual can only die in your place in this way one time.

You die 5 times. Then you still have 1 life left. Then you see cutscenes with your comrades dying. What should happen then? The most logical thing would be - nothing. No change is supposed to happen because you have those lives for the sole reason they died then (I'm not talking whether it happened before or after). Raising OR reducing the number of available lives would be like applying a second effect to the cause.

Actually, it's like adding a second cause to the effect. The way I look at it, your dying seals the PC's fate. Were they going to die -anyway-? Yes, but this is just a sad coincidence. Before you died, the PC still had a chance (however minimal, and in OOC terms it never works out) of surviving, but once you died and they are slated to take your place, they are truly doomed. In effect, their dying in your place doesn't -change- anything, because TO will still be the method by which their doom will be delivered either way.

There is no real "logical" way to handle this. If like me you think that the PC deaths can be delayed just as Mebbeth's death after Ravel's was delayed, OR if you don't think the cutscenes you get to see OOC while you are instantaneously teleporting around represent the actual literal sequence of events going on in the Fortress, then the way we're intending to do it works. If you think the PC death needs to be instantaneous AND the sequence of events of the teleportation-cinematics is literal, then the "logical" answer is that, when you die, we should see either a full cutscene where one dies, or alternately just a Monty-Pythonesque cinematic where they just keel over, and you don't get to see the cinematic that comes after. I'd prefer the "full-cinematic-at-death" answer, I think it would work most logically, but I don't think it's technically possible. So we'll just need to grant poetic license and understand that the last cutscenes you get to see represent what happened at the time you died, working backwards.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 20 June 2009 - 01:24 PM.

[nevill]

My head hurts. I don't see how this makes any sense at all. Is there some in-game lore I've missed that explains why this keeps getting suggested? It contradicts everything I'm aware of.

I began to write a thorough answer, but the more I think about it, the more I am inclined to agree with your thoughts. Sorry for the confusion.

So, am I correct in suggesting that you think that "spare lives" should be available only before the cutscenes, and if the party members die while you haven't used your limit to its fullest, they die in vain? For example, you enter a Fortress with a party of 4 - that should be 3 extra lives. You die 2 times, then you get to see all the cutscenes, and then you are on your own. And because you have a cutscene for each character, you will always be left with no extra lives when you are fighting TTO. Right?

I'd prefer the "full-cinematic-at-death" answer, I think it would work most logically, but I don't think it's technically possible.

I am curious to why not. Not that I want it implemented right away, I am interested in technical details. We can make the game recognize when TNO dies. The cutscenes are already coded. What do we lack to merge the two?

[Qwinn]

So, am I correct in suggesting that you think that "spare lives" should be available only before the cutscenes, and if the party members die while you haven't used your limit to its fullest, they die in vain?

Correct. In a way, I think this has the side benefit of balancing things out for new players and making metagaming knowledge less useful. A new player isn't going to know where to go, and will likely go further toward clearing out the area before finding the teleports and starting the cutscenes. Given the bonus lives you get early on, this is actually the smarter approach. A metagamer might want to rush through the whole thing, knowing exactly where to go (which is quasi-cheating), but this makes that approach a little riskier since you'll wind up with a ton of shadows chasing you around by the end when you no longer have bonus lives left.

For example, you enter a Fortress with a party of 4 - that should be 3 extra lives. You die 2 times, then you get to see all the cutscenes, and then you are on your own.

Correct.

And because you have a cutscene for each character, you will always be left with no extra lives when you are fighting TTO. Right?

Yep. This is already the case in the unmodded game. See the initial post: once you enter the crystal, any death is permanent.

We can make the game recognize when TNO dies.

Not really, at least not without Party AI turned on, and while I'm willing to make banters depend on having that turned on (since you don't -have- to install the Banter Accelerator anyway), I'm not willing to make something as plot critical as this dependent on it.

Qwinn

[nevill]

Not really, at least not without Party AI turned on, and while I'm willing to make banters depend on having that turned on (since you don't -have- to install the Banter Accelerator anyway), I'm not willing to make something as plot critical as this dependent on it.

I think there IS a way. Making a check for a certain creature's HP in the area script should do the trick unless my memory is so rusty I am confusing this with another IE game with much more advanced modding capabilities.

Or there can be ANOTHER script (general, race or something like that) with an area check assigned to the PC's cre file. They are independant of party's AI.

I know this is possible. I had to rely on that to check if I was killed by the nobleman in the Pendant of Yemeth quest (he has a dialogue related to that case). BTW, how did you make it work without that? Ahh, need to get the game, install your mod and see everything for myself.

[Qwinn]

I'm fairly sure I tried other scripts for TNO and other PC's when I was doing the banter accelerator, and none of them worked unless I had Party AI on. But I'll give it another try, maybe it only works if you start a new game with it set up that way, or something.

I really hope it -does- work, I'd love to be able to separate my banter method from the Party AI if it's possible, but it wasn't working when I tried it previously.

I think there IS a way. Making a check for a certain creature's HP in the area script should do the trick unless my memory is so rusty I am confusing this with another IE game with much more advanced modding capabilities.

This -may- be possible. But I suspect even if it does, it won't be as smooth as you seem to think. When TNO dies, the engine takes over, does the fade-in and fade-out and respawns TNO wherever the INI files tell him to. Can a cutscene interrupt that process? I'm tending to doubt it, but I'll give it a try.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 21 June 2009 - 12:22 AM.

[nevill]

I'm fairly sure I tried other scripts for TNO and other PC's when I was doing the banter accelerator, and none of them worked unless I had Party AI on. But I'll give it another try, maybe it only works if you start a new game with it set up that way, or something.

Ah, forget it then. I had to rely on them too much for my purposes and it seems I overestimated them. Sorry.

But I suspect even if it does, it won't be as smooth as you seem to think.

It gets the job done, that's all that matters. I am farly sure that a cutscene can not be incerted while fading in and out (hmm, maybe setting a variable on death, then an immediate check for that variable to fade out again?), but it can trigger the very next moment. Although a bit crude, this is as close to "instantaneous death" as possible.

Also, do you happen to know who was in charge of the Fortress thing? Their input on what should happen there would be most valuable.

[Qwinn]

Although a bit crude, this is as close to "instantaneous death" as possible.

I prefer to avoid adding content that could be described as "crude". If we can't fix something at least relatively cleanly, without crudity, then I prefer to keep mitts off.

Also, do you happen to know who was in charge of the Fortress thing? Their input on what should happen there would be most valuable.

I asked Colin Moulder-McComb about this issue also. According to him, the Fortress was all Chris Avellone's baby. So we'll have to wait till after Alpha Protocol ships before getting any answers regarding this (I promised I wouldn't bug him till he's done with that

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 21 June 2009 - 08:56 PM.

[Zwolf]

Who need extra lives anyway? Don't tell me some lazy players go to the Fortress without previously farming to level 20+ on larval worms!

I feel like any of the potential fix gonna let me unsatisfied as it's crystal clear for me that Vhailor and Morte shouldn't give an extra life.