51 replies to this topic

[berelinde]

If I won the lottery and was able to quit work and mod full time...

Anyway, this convo was going on in the BioWare Romance Expansion thread about possible expansions to Anomen and Keldorn. I don't want to hijack that thread anymore, since it was somebody else's stage I was stealing.

I'm not thrilled with how the NPC Flirt Pack handles Anomen. OK, there are some things that are all right, but I get the impression that the writers didn't really like him. Fortunately, it's possible to install individual components. If I had time, and I'm not saying that I ever will, I'd give the guy new flirts and a new PID menu.

As for Keldorn, well, where to start? A while ago, last year or before, Saphira had an idea for developing a relationship with Keldorn that would develop only if the PC tried to help him reconcile with Maria. This is different from BWL's romance, which happens only if Maria is imprisoned, as I understand it. Sometimes, when one spouse has to do without the other for a long time, they grow apart. The spouse who stays home becomes accustomed to being the one who makes all the decisions, and learns to get by very comfortably without the other one in the picture. When the absent spouse returns, the stay-at-home spouse now has to share the decision making process and loses a great deal of his/her independence. He or she might grow resentful. So, Maria has broken it off with Sir Winthrop, but that doesn't change the fact that she and Keldorn have grown apart. Now, Keldorn is home all the time, leaving his gauntlets on the table she just polished, tracking in mud from the garden, expecting her to have dinner with him when she thought she might attend a griffon-fancier's lecture. In short, he no longer has a place in her life.

What the PC would see would be Keldorn's sudden reappearance about 10 days after the reconcilliation. He'd evade discussing the reason for his presence as long as possible, but eventually, he'd be forced to admit that she threw him out.

A male PC would have the opportunity to bond with him and help him get past the failure of his marriage. Keldorn was always the one with the life experience to draw on, so a male PC who considered Keldorn a friend might enjoy having the chance to help him through a rough patch.

A female PC would have the opportunity to do that, too, but Keldorn might have an easier time talking about some things with a woman. After all, no matter how comfortable two men are around each other, there's things they won't talk about. Keldorn couldn't tell Anomen that he was feeling less confident than previously, but he could say that to a female <CHARNAME> without feeling that his masculinity was diminished.

As for where it goes from there, well, hard to say. Jaheira might be willing to forget Khalid and frolic with the PC a couple months later, but Keldorn? It might happen, but it wouldn't be until ToB, to say the least.

So, that's what I've been thinking about with regards to Anomen and Keldorn. Don't worry, though. My chances of winning the lottery are not high. Espcially since I play so rarely.

Edited by berelinde, 22 May 2009 - 10:17 AM.

[xdeathplanetx]

oh u have greats ideas and....
if u winn a lottery make a higth donation to every shs forum actives members! hahahaha

[Aeryn]

I really love the ideas for Keldorn. He is one of my favorite, if not my favorite, original NPC, and I see so much potential for a deeper relationship with him. A romance with him would be really tricky...and to be honest, I can only picture a few, very specific character types being even remotely successful at any attempted romance, which in and of itself could be a turnoff for players. I personally can picture a working romance for him in my head, but it makes for a better fanfic than a mod. But even a deeper friendship would be a great addition. As for this:

Keldorn couldn't tell Anomen that he was feeling less confident than previously...

I think that has more to do with maturity (as well as the fact that Keldorn feels the need to set a good example to Anomen specifically) and less to do with gender. A mature, understanding male PC could probably get him to talk more in-depth almost as easily as a female PC. Of course, there will always be some things that no two men would ever talk about together.

Hope you win the lotto.

[Mistress Elysia]

I totally agree with your assessment of Anomen's treatment - as a recent Anomen convert, I would love to see him treated with sensitivity rather than just playing the old 'he's an arrogant twat and must be ridiculed at every turn' card (something I admit in full to doing in the past - believe me, I am going to take steps to amend this!).

As for Keldorn, like Aeryn, I am rather fond of the old paladin. Rather than a romance per se, I envisioned an almost father/child relationship developing, where Keldorn partially fills that big, Gorion shaped hole in the PC's life. Keldorn is, after all, a father himself, and for that reason alone I could see him taking an interest in such a young person with such a huge responsibility upon their shoulders - he seems to have quite a strong paternal streak in him, and having him pass on his wisdom to a younger student figure would, I think, fit his personality. However, like all children (biologial or adopted...), how the PC takes this interest is another matter!

To bridge that gap between a full blown romance and a student/mentor thing, the PC could develop a bit of a crush on him; Lord knows, I know I quite easily could...

[berelinde]

I shouldn't have said anything, becaue now I'm thinking about ways the mod could go. This would definitely be one mod where a romance with an NPC was not assumed. It might be *possible* late in ToB, if things go that way, but it would be a friendship first and foremost.

It might help to know that my vision of Keldorn is probably a lot younger than most people's. I don't see him as a hale sexagenarian. I imagine he's in his *early* forties, say forty-two or forty-three. I imagine he married Maria in his early twenties, e.g. 23, and had Leona when he was in his late twenties, e.g. 27. I figure she's in her mid-teens, so 42 isn't so bad.

He calls himself old, but he's a mature man in a young person's profession. He probably feels positively ancient, at times, but that doesn't change the fact that he's still relatively young and vital.

I'd say that having the PC look up to Keldorn as a father substitute before finding out about Maria would definitely reduce the chances of a relationship deepening (romantic or platonic) later on. If he knows he has the responsibilty of mentorship over the PC, he would be less likely to talk about his own problems. He'd probably save that for a peer.

[xdeathplanetx]

berelinde i don't know if u have ever played to the 'Angelo' mod he as Keldron is older the your pc but in the game as is specified in this mod (and i think that also biowere thougth so...) their age is compared to their expectative of living that for Medieval age was around 55 years old (if nobles and well manteined) rare where the axception to live more and also without the "blue pillow" a man over 55 years old was not very usefull in bed
However your ideas of a later romance in tob is really good

Edited by xdeathplanetx, 22 May 2009 - 01:23 PM.

[berelinde]

There was a census done in London near the start of the thirteenth century that found that only about half of all infants born lived until their fifth year. The most common cause of death after infant mortality was burns (children were left home unattended while parents went to work, oftentimes). If a child lived to be 5, there was every expectation he or she would live to reach puberty. There was another 50% mortality rate between puberty and the age of 40. Men would die of injuries sustained in war, agriculture, fishing, or other industry, women, in childbirth or illness thereafter. The mortality rate was slightly higher for the men, but not as high as you would think. Between 40 and 60, another drop, though it was due to disease, now. If a person lived to be 60, though, he or she might expect to live to be 80.

What has this got to do with the Forgotten Realms? Nothing.

But yeah, I know Angelo. I'm not going to have Keldorn be that old. Certainly not old enough for pills of any color.

Seriously, though, not everybody needs medication, no matter what Angelo implies. There have been 80-year old fathers for ages, long before televised infomercials. Besides, Angelo is just saying that as a last-ditch effort to scare the PC away.

[KIrving]

I'm not thrilled with how the NPC Flirt Pack handles Anomen. OK, there are some things that are all right, but I get the impression that the writers didn't really like him. Fortunately, it's possible to install individual components. If I had time, and I'm not saying that I ever will, I'd give the guy new flirts and a new PID menu.

My feelings too. I love that there is a flirt pack as Anomen's romance really needed something to spice it up. I like the morning after talk (continuation) and some of the flirts, however there are some aspects of it that I don't like. I would be really interested in new flirts and especially a new PID menu. (and more smut! )

I've always had an interest in extended interaction with Keldorn and even a romance with a female PC. I play a character in some pnp roleplaying that has a 'thing' for older men and it spills over.
Although I get somewhat where Mistress Elysia is coming from in the case of a mentor, especially if the PC is a Paladin or maybe fighter/cleric class, I really dislike the idea of Keldorn as any type of father figure.
It would take some deft and delicate handling by a female PC to awaken romantic feelings in Keldorn, but it would be great to have the opportunity to go down that road, (even maybe starting near the end of SoA with the promise of further development in ToB, perhaps?)

Here's wishing you win the lotto too!

Edited by KIrving, 22 May 2009 - 03:12 PM.

[Aeryn]

Seriously, though, not everybody needs medication, no matter what Angelo implies. There have been 80-year old fathers for ages, long before televised infomercials.

My husband's father is one such example.

I pictured Keldorn as roughly 50-ish, so a few years either side works for me. I have no qualms whatsoever with older men. It seems like the most important thing to him is maturity and how a person handles themselves. If the PC acts like a kid (ie, the way Imoen behaves most of the time), he will treat them in a father/child way. For a more grounded/mature (though not necessarily serious) PC, I can see an "accidental" romance happening. Something like a mutual "You're always there for me...I've really come to depend on you...you always protect and respect me...oh wow I think I might be developing some feelings I wasn't expecting here..." A PC who blatantly comes onto him, though...I just don't see it happening.

I shouldn't have said anything, becaue now I'm thinking about ways the mod could go.

I know exactly what you mean. Although for me, the ideas develop a life of their own in my head whether I talk about them or not.

[berelinde]

If the PC acts like a kid (ie, the way Imoen behaves most of the time), he will treat them in a father/child way. For a more grounded/mature (though not necessarily serious) PC, I can see an "accidental" romance happening. Something like a mutual "You're always there for me...I've really come to depend on you...you always protect and respect me...oh wow I think I might be developing some feelings I wasn't expecting here..." A PC who blatantly comes onto him, though...I just don't see it happening.

Ah, I see we're on the same page, after all. That's what I intended. The bolded part of your statement is the direction I intended to go with it. But yeah, a PC who blatantly comes on to him won't get anywhere.

I should start buying more tickets, perhaps.

[Ankhes]

I wish I could remember where someone said they found this but a poster said that Bioware officially had Keldorn's age as 39. He just keeps referring to himself as old because of his time in the order. And his children are young so being in his 50's wouldn't really fit. If I ever find that post I'll link to it if it seems credible.

I myself always thought of him as around 40 realistically. And if the pc is a elf or half elf wouldn't she be much older than he? But I'm not a person who knows much canon of the game.

Oh, do buy tickets Berelinde! But I don't think anyone should judge Senka's Keldorn romance until it is done and played so we can see how she did it. After all people have differing viewpoints and until I see the finished product I won't assume hers is invalid. Just sayin.' I just have the feeling here that people are already disagreeing with BWL having a Keldorn romance at all. But as always I maintain the right to be wrong!

*I've really got to stop posting. I swore I wouldn't and here I am breaking my word. *

Edited by Ankhes, 22 May 2009 - 03:26 PM.

[berelinde]

I'm not saying anything against Senka's Keldorn Romance! It might be wonderful.

I'm not sure that I can agree with the premise behind it, but that does not invalidate the opinins she has. It just means that my ideas are different. If you're modding BioWare characters, everyone is going to have differnt interpreations.

[Aeryn]

I wish I could remember where someone said they found this but a poster said that Bioware officially had Keldorn's age as 39. He just keeps referring to himself as old because of his time in the order. And his children are young so being in his 50's wouldn't really fit. If I ever find that post I'll link to it if it seems credible.

His kids aren't that young by my definition - he tells Imoen that he has a daughter her age (19?). He could be 39 and have a 19 year old daughter (I'm 26 and have an almost 7 year old after all ), but 50 is by no means an unreasonable guess. Not that it really matters either way. He certainly behaves like an older man, and that's part of his appeal to be honest.

[GeN1e]

Keldorn Firecam thought his travels with <CHARNAME> marked the end of his active career, both as an adventurer and in service to the Order. He retired to Athkatla, hoping to live in as much peace as an old warrior can expect, but the call to serve came one last time. It was years later, and Amn was besieged by giants. In his 60th winter, Keldorn and five knights held a strategic pass until the main Amnish force could arrive. He won the day, but his wounds were severe and the old paladin fell on the battlefield. As his knights watched, the hand of Torm descended upon the scene, and when it departed, Keldorn was gone. From that day, visions of the True God were accompanied by the stalwart ghostly form of Keldorn at his right hand.

Years, not decades. He's 50-something.

he tells Imoen that he has a daughter her age (19?

Imeon, as we know from BG1's and BG2's prologues is the same age as PC, who's 20, maybe 21 (BG1 wasn't won in a day or two, you know). At the same time iirc he talks to his older daughter the way that seems to implement she's in her mid teens.
Everyone knows there's very little chronological consistency in BG's story - think of Abazigal's adult dragon son.

Stuff like this happens when several people write for one game. So Keldorn indeed has a right to be 40. Yet he does look more like 50.

Edited by GeN1e, 22 May 2009 - 04:16 PM.

[Tempest]

He is, however, in an extremely physically demanding career-being an active-duty paladin in a nation as routinely faced with problems as Amn is not a move calculated to keep a youthful appearance. There's a Marine who attends my church who's only in his thirties, but people often mistake him for being in his forties at least. Personally, I peg Keldorn as early 40's, maybe even late 30's-humans in Faerun are considered adult at 15, so it's quite probable he had his first daughter before he was 20.

[Ankhes]

All this is true, but years could be decades. I often hear people in everyday speech say "years" when they are indeed referring to "decades" ago. It may not be the best way to phrase something but it is often done.
If it is indeed true that Bioware says 39 somewhere than so be it. 39 he is. I would just like to see the source of that to verify.

[jcompton]

I'm not thrilled with how the NPC Flirt Pack handles Anomen. OK, there are some things that are all right, but I get the impression that the writers didn't really like him.

I enlisted some of the fanniest fangirls around to help me build it. So on their behalf, I say

"THAT'S JUST YOUR IMAGINATION WE LUUUUUUV ANOMEN XOXOXOXO!!!!!"

[berelinde]

GeN1e, I'm going to disagree with you, but at least I'll tell you why.

I'm a native English speaker. I would say "It's been years since I've had to deal with public schools." What I mean by that is that I graduated from high school 24 years ago and have not had any dealings with public schools in the interrim. Twenty-four years is still "years." I would also say "It will be years before I think about retirement." What I mean by that it will be at least 24 years before I am old enough to retire. Perhaps "years" implies a narrower margin in your lexicon, but in mine, it covers any interval of time larger than months.

It isn't at all unusual to hear someone speaking of something in the distant future or past as "years from now" or "years ago," but it *is* unsual to hear someone say "decades."


We know the year of Baldur's Gate. "1368, The Year of the Banner: "Baldur's Gate": Sarevok, spawn of the dead god Bhaal, plots with the Iron Throne to start a war between Amn and Baldur's Gate. Scar of the Flaming Fists and Grand Duke Eltan of Baldur's Gate are slain. Another spawn of Bhaal, Abdel Adrian, confronts Sarevok and slays him." BG2 happens one year later.

Unless you can produce a timeline that says that Amn was invaded by giants between 1369 and 1379, this invasion by giants cannot have happened before the extremely comprehensive timeline I use ends, in 1390. Even if the invasion by giants happened in late 1390, just beyond the edge of my favorite timeline, if Keldorn was 60 when he died, that would have meant he was born in 1330, which would have made him 39 in 1369 at the time of BG2.

Hey, what do you know! That matches the age Ankhes has for him. Maybe she's right about developer intent. And I think that's logic enough to set his age at 39, as well.

Edit: and Tempest has a point about a physically demanding profession aging a person.

Edit2: @JC: It isn't like I'm likely to have the time to write it.

Edited by berelinde, 22 May 2009 - 04:59 PM.

[GeN1e]

I know that 'years' can be more than 10. Ok, you may well be right, I suppose I'm just way too used to think of him as 50.

So Keldorn indeed has a right to be 40.

[jcompton]

Edit2: @JC: It isn't like I'm likely to have the time to write it.

That's irrelevant to the matter of reassuring you.

The process was fairly well-documented on the old FWP forums, but of course those have been offline for years.