52 replies to this topic

[Mistress Elysia]

This might not be the right forum for this - if it isn't, just move it and give me a slap on the leg

After coming back to BG after a while away from it, I have decided to run a vanilla game before fiddling around with mods again. It is largely a pleasant experience - even Irenicus' hellish first dungeon isn't as unpleasant as once it was, and whilst it isn't like playing for the first time, it is nice to come back after a protracted break to discover that BG is indeed as awesome as I remembered it, and not due to a horrible case of rose-tinted glasses.

One thing that really has struck me, however, is how much more respect I have for Anomen as a character. Whilst I still find him arrogant and boastful, whereas once I thought these flaws were irritating, I now find them interesting and inspired.

Over the last couple of years, I have really gotten into writing in a big way, and due to this, I have gained a love for truly flawed characters; ones that have real flaws as opposed to 'cosmetic' flaws (like being an arrogant wanker compared to being 'a bit clumsy' or having a bit of a temper... you know, annoying, real life flaws as opposed to 'these are *technically* flaws which would make me a total idiot in real life, but in the realms of fantasy, they make me look cool'). Due to this, I have been able to look at Anomen and at last see this much maligned, often ridiculed character for what I think he really is - a character with 'proper' flaws that make him incredibly real in ways other NPCs (canon and mod - and I include my own mod in this!) aren't. Of course, this means he isn't totally appealing in terms of being compatible with most female fantasies of their own personal 'knight in shining armour', but that doesn't mean he's a bad character - quite the opposite, in fact...

I was once one of those people who called Anomen 'Annoyman', but this is no longer the case. I am not saying he doesn't irritate me - sheesh, if I met him down the pub in real life, I'd be making my excuses to leave pretty damn sharpish! - but I have to admit that after ridiculing him for so long, I now feel a trifle silly and sheepish, because in reality, he is actually, I feel, a triumph of character creation.

TL;DR? Anomen FTW. Never thought I'd say that, but hey, you live and learn...

Anyone else had any revelations about any NPCs over the years? Ones the initially hated but have over time discovered respect for? Or how about vice versa? Maybe there was once a character you liked, but over time they have been revealed for the frauds they truly are...

(For purposes of keeping this topic unbiased, it pribably is best to stick to canon NPCs... although let me be the first to say that I am acutely aware that I definitely need to put a few more genuine flaws into my next NPC! )

Edited by Mistress Elysia, 21 May 2009 - 12:32 PM.

[Eleima]

I certainly am glad that someone managed to convey how interesting Anomen really is in such an articulate way. I have always been fond of Anomen because he tries so hard to be your character's "knight in shining armor", but like any another man I've ever met, he's not perfect. That's kind why all the Anomen flaming out there always kind bothered me: I had the feeling that people didn't bother to see beyond the most obvious (yes, he can be boastful and pompous and seem arrogant, but he can also be a really nice guy sometimes). Thank you for putting this in such nice words.

As for other NPCs... Well, I have always hated Jan, and I still do... And I have always loved Minsc, and I always will! Oh, and Boo too!

Imoen used to bug me a little because she was so cheery, but that must've lasted 5mins before I started warming up to her.
Valygar initially seemed boring and cold, but then I saw as the silent and brooding type. Even though that pretty much amounts to the same thing, the light in which I saw him changed.
I used to find Jaheira extremely annoying, but once I started playing BG1 (I played BG2 first, when it came out, and played BG1 in 2005 or so, no earlier), I started to understand that when she comes out as bossy, it's just her maternal streak. I still find her annoying, but I understand that she means well.

That's what so great about this game. No matter how many times you play, vanilla or modded, there's always something something new to discover, or maybe your point of view on certain things will change.
That's what keeps us all coming back for more.

Edited by Eleima, 21 May 2009 - 12:57 PM.

[Eocine]

Tragically I'm actually in your camp here.

After playing it through again faily recently Anomen actually annoyed me a lot less than normal. This was doubly bad for me as it meant that El Wife was actually right over one of my long held personal dislikes not actually being as much of a gimp as I'd thought. There are still things that he says that make me want to introduce him to the business end of a crossbow bolt, but then again that's the case for virtually all of the NPC's on the game.

[Azkyroth]

I initially didn't give it much though, but over the last several years, as I've been conceptualizing and writing for Arkalian behind the scenes, I've become a bit disappointed with Keldorn as presented. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I think Keldorn really got screwed over from a characterization perspective. Between his stats (INT 12 - above average, WIS 16 - impressive, CHA 18 - astronomical) and his character concept - a paladin who has not only spent years as a passionate defender of his beliefs in word and deed but mentored those who would follow in his footsteps - he should be articulate, forceful, convincing, and compelling when speaking of them - he should truly understand his view of the world, have thought through its implications, be able to make a strong, appealing, and eloquent case for the superiority and even necessity of the values he holds and the principles he lives by, both in principle and as a guide to living actual life in the real world, whether considered in isolation or in comparison to another worldview. One should not already have to lean that way before he speaks in order to agree with him at the end of it, and his case should present a credible challenge to other belief systems that they must engage with intelligently even if they ultimately come to the opposite conclusion.

Instead, we get "Are you mocking my values? You dare scorn everything I hold dear and everything I stand for? Do not be such an ass, Cernd." Etc. There are a few dialogues in which he performs a little better in this regard, but still. With those stats and that history, he should be able to persuade people, not just preach at them. It's unfortunate that this capacity is never developed or articulated in his Bioware dialogues; I think a lot of character potential is being wasted in the "official" characterization.

I've found this a stumbling block in attempting to write his dialogues with Arkalian (who is logical, analytical, and abrasive enough to rip that approach to shreds), and was initially quite annoyed by the need to write him "out of character" relative to the Bioware dialogues in order to produce banters I felt were worth writing at all. I recently had the insight that he may have simply spent so much time "moving" and inspiring people that he's somewhat forgotten how to approach persuasion, rather than being actually unable to articulate his principles, and the reasons he holds them, intelligently.

I know Tempest doesn't agree with my interpretation of his character. Has anyone else noticed this, though?

[theacefes]

To be honest....I never really focused *that* much on the characters of BG2, because in all honestly I truly believe that our "canon" interpretation of the characters comes from the years of bg fanfic that's circulated around the community, not necessarily from the game, which actually had very little in party dialogue. It had more than bg1, true, but still not enough that warrants the long debates that I've seen.

I do have to agree with Mistress E though. Flawed characters in fantasy are cool. Stuff like that makes the game more than a hack n slash (which is what it would be if not for the great storyline!)

[princesspurpleblob]

I think we all had period of "I hate Anomen". The first time I got him, I got sick of his "Order" talk and booted him out. I finished BG2 with selected few NPCs (mainly Minsc, Jaheira, Yoshimo/Imoen) and got REALLY attached to them and started to wonder if I am ignoring all other awesome NPCs in BG2. So I've started to take in people I used to dislike in past and found out just how gorgeous and sweet Anomen is. Now he is my absolute favourite NPC of all time and I never ever play BG2 without him =)

Edited by princesspurpleblob, 02 June 2009 - 02:24 AM.

[Deva]

I love Anomen for exactly this reason. I think of all the characters in BG, he's the one that has the most convincing journey. I think whoever wrote him intended the brashness and arrogance to cover the fact that he is, in actuality, very insecure in himself. He's more trying to convince himself that his achievements are worthwhile and his course is the correct one than he is the PC. Unfortunately, I think the subtly of the characterization can be lost sometimes, which is why he has the reputation of being a massive plonker. I like that its a bit of a subversion of the old 'knight in shining armour' idea.

I still think his romance could do with a little refining - maybe more PC options, a few less weird romance breakers. But even the vanilla romance - I've yet to find one that beats it. Edwin came close. Coran is amazing to. But Anomen... he will always be my snugglebunny.

[WeeRLegion]

I never had anything much against Ano, he always seemed more useful than annoying.
But eh... I only recently ran into it first time; his 'Lol! U r lowly halfling!' dialogue with Mazzy...
Is that added by the banter pack or something?
It's so ridiculously stupid that it's brilliant! XD

[Kulyok]

I've always had the same perspective on Anomen as I do on my favourite books: "This is MY book". Like, "This is my character. How can anyone else like him, or talk about him, or write for him? I mean, sure, he's in the game, but he's MY Anomen - what are these other women doing here?"

I recall that a girl talked about Harry Potter books this way during a conversation with J.K.Rowling. And, not surprisingly, JKR agreed with her.

[berelinde]

The first time I played BG2, I didn't like Anomen much. I went out looking for an alternative love interest and found this mod NPC, Kelsey, and I thought "Anything just to shut that arrogant jackass up." And then I discovered that arrogance is not the worst sin a mod NPC can commit. It didn't help that I wasn't very good at installing mods at that point, and the strings got scrambled, and the "You must gather your party" line was replaced by Kelsey's snarkiest jab about the butterknife, so I heard it *all the time*.

Kelsey's obvious need to get the better of every NPC in every banter, especially Anomen, got on my nerves worse than Anomen's insecurity ever did. Since it's obviously a mod NPC, it's equally obvious that the modder wrote both sides of the banter, so yeah, he's never going to let his NPC look bad, but it still made a negative impression on me, and gave me fresh sympathy for Anomen.

All of a sudden, Anomen's debilitating self-doubt and over-compensation were endearing quirks, not character flaws. OK, they were still character flaws, but I could look at them with indulgence. These are normal human traits. They're amplified, but they're understandable. Anomen might not be the most likable character in the Copper Coronet, but he's lovable, despite his faults.

So now, I still love Anomen, I still dislike Kelsey and other mod NPCs that have to win every banter and always come out ahead of their romantic rivals, and I've still never read a BG2 FanFic, so I'm completely uninfluenced by anything anyone has written about him.

@WeeRLegion: it's original BioWare, I think.

[princesspurpleblob]

I've always had the same perspective on Anomen as I do on my favourite books: "This is MY book". Like, "This is my character. How can anyone else like him, or talk about him, or write for him? I mean, sure, he's in the game, but he's MY Anomen - what are these other women doing here?"

I recall that a girl talked about Harry Potter books this way during a conversation with J.K.Rowling. And, not surprisingly, JKR agreed with her.

No! He is *my* Anomen...

[Cal Jones]

I understand that Anomen is actually a very cleverly written character with flaws, but whilst I find him useful for his combat skills (exploding undead ftw!) I just can't warm to him as a love interest. The problem for me is all the "fair lady" business. He wants the PC to be the damsel to his knight in shining armour. I cannot relate to that fantasy at all. In reality, although I'm a woman, and a straight one at that, I'm actually pretty butch and macho. Whilst I do shave my legs, I also lift very heavy weights very seriously, like action movies, despise chick flicks, babies and shoe shopping, and, if I see a bunch of girls tottering along in short skirts and heels, they might as well be another species.

When I play a game, I can quite happily roleplay a male character, but if I'm playing a female, it's invariably me, because I have trouble relating to most women. (Don't get me wrong, I like women and get on with them well enough, but I tend to view them as something different from me. Which is probably why nearly all my friends are gay men).

If there were dialogue options that said, "Anomen, stop treating me like a bl**dy princess, I'm not that sort of woman" then I'd have enjoyed the romance more, but for the mostpart, I was cringing all the way through. It's especially annoying that you end up having a massive wedding in the epilogue even if you tell him you want something small. (I hate weddings!)

I'd be happier with a rough, tough romance option - someone more like a grizzled merc who would share a drink with the PC and wouldn't mollycoddle her, though he might give her a shoulder if she felt bad about something. I guess that's why I enjoy Angelo (and also Edwin - not a merc, but he does at least treat the PC as an equal, and the arguments and insults are fun).

I'll agree about Kelsey, though. He wasn't so bad in SoA, but by the time ToB came around, I wanted to throttle him. I guess I just don't like salesmen, and his constant sales pitch really hacked me off.

[berelinde]

Lifting heavy weights isn't feminine? Go fig. Guess I'll have to go find something else to do at the gym after work. I wonder if they have a class in swooning or kerchief waving.

Seriously, though, I do get a bit offended when folks imply (or state outright) that it isn't ladylike to be physically strong or that being athletic is somehow masculine or "butch." It's kind of like saying that it isn't feminine to be left-handed.

Sure, my PCs aren't wilting flowers. They can take care of themselves. That doesn't mean that my PCs don't want someone being polite to them, though. This is a game, not real life, but chivalry makes a nice change from the cretins who let the door slam in your face.

[Cal Jones]

Heh heh. Well there are plenty of feminine women who lift weights - I'm also on a figure competitor site which is full of girls with diesel bodies who totter about in heels and complain they can't get any cute outfits to fit anymore. Then there's me, whose idea of dressing up is to wear jeans instead of jogging bottoms.

Yeah I'm not saying a guy should be rude, but like I said, I'd rather be treated as an equal than a delicate flower. Anomen does seem to figure this out eventually, but not until ToB by which time it's far too late for him in my books. Each to their own.

[Azkyroth]

Reason number 762 why I think the constructs of "masculine" and "feminine" have outlived any usefulness they ever had.

As contrasted with Anomen's attitude, how do you two find the portrayal of the different Bioware women's expectations from relationships?

[Leila]

I really didn't think Anomen treated the PC as unequal. He looked to her for a lot of support and basically put his fate in her hands. The 'fair lady' act was just that: an act. His father was a drunkard and crude as can be, and he was probably overcompensating for that by acting far beyond what chivalry calls for.

[Azkyroth]

I really didn't think Anomen treated the PC as unequal. He looked to her for a lot of support and basically put his fate in her hands. The 'fair lady' act was just that: an act. His father was a drunkard and crude as can be, and he was probably overcompensating for that by acting far beyond what chivalry calls for.

I'm uterus-impaired, but curiously I find the perspective that comes most easily to me in much of my writing is that of an androgynous woman. From this perspective, there are a few elements of Anomen's dialogues I would find quite patronizing - his contually comparing you to his sister comes to mind, and the fact that throughout the romance you're essentially asked to play the role of "the woman behind the man." I remember a few holding/cuddling related comments that struck me as curiously one-sided. I don't know how a more typical femalish perspective would interpret that sort of thing, though.

[Tempest]

My perspective, as someone who can empathize very heavily with Anomen, is that he isn't asking Charname to be his damsel-not really. My analysis of Anomen is that he's a man for whom neither his god nor his Order will ever really be sufficient as his cause to fight for. Sure, he loves and respects both, but even before he joins the party, he's not really fighting *for* Helm or the Order. He's fighting for his sister, and what she means to him. When Charname comes along, and especially when Moira is killed, Anomen is still acting in the same fashion-he has to fight for *someone*, and that someone is Charname.

I don't think Anomen intends his behavior as arrogant-to the contrary, I think he's actually quite humble, once you look past the surface. He's basically throwing his life into the hands of a woman he hardly knows, simply because she reminds him of his sister-reminds him of the one thing he knows as truly good, the one person he's fought for all this time, and it's up to Charname to decide what to do with that devotion (see his alignment split). Anomen is deeply insecure in his own capabilities-I think he certainly does treat Charname like a damsel to his knight, because that's what he's accustomed to thinking a lady should be treated like, even a strong and capable Charname.

Take it from one who's been (and pretty consistently *is*) guilty of doing much the same thing in real life-Anomen doesn't really *think* you're some soft damsel, he's simply trying to treat you with the respect, concern, and otherwise behavior that he feels you deserve-it's just his own ideas of how to express those things that are old-fashioned and come across as arrogant to a more modern-minded woman.

[Eleima]

I pretty much agree with Tempest on the whole, with one exception. I'm not altogether certain that he *was* fighting for his sister. I like to think that he really *did* fight for Helm and the Order, and that trying to help his sister whoever he could was an added bonus. Of course, I don't have a valid explanation, that's just what I have surmised.
I do, however, strongly agree that Anomen's bravado is just a facade, that you have to chip away at it to discover a kind man who's actually having a crisis of faith of sorts. Sometimes I think he's trying to convince himself as much as the PC when he tells the tall tale of the terrible Hillgnasher giants (oooh, I like my little alliteration back there! ).
And Tempest... That last paragraph of yours in that last post is one of the sweetest things I've read today, and I couldn't agree more. As you put it so well, Anomen is just trying to treat the object of his affections with the respect he believes she deserves. And that doesn't have to be for everyone (and that's why they should've included alternatives for females in the romance department, but that's another story - thank goodness for mods!), but that's one of the reasons I've always been extremely fond of Anomen.


And anyways, Anomen was voiced by Rob Paulsen, therefore he rocks!

[Leila]

I'm uterus-impaired, but curiously I find the perspective that comes most easily to me in much of my writing is that of an androgynous woman. From this perspective, there are a few elements of Anomen's dialogues I would find quite patronizing - his contually comparing you to his sister comes to mind, and the fact that throughout the romance you're essentially asked to play the role of "the woman behind the man." I remember a few holding/cuddling related comments that struck me as curiously one-sided. I don't know how a more typical femalish perspective would interpret that sort of thing, though.

I'm sure your assumed role gives you much wisdom on the subject.
A few questions, though:
1. How is being compared to his sister patronising? He incessantly refers to her as determined. The only thing I could ever mistake for it is that he refers to her as 'young,' which as far as I know is a generally accepted way to describe someone younger than you, and when he says he was not there to protect her, which makes sense for as far as we know, Moira is an unarmed noblewoman.
2. I just finished playing through the romance, but I don't remember anything coddling beyond what the flirt pack decided to assume. Could you be so kind as to point these out?
3. Are these comments that are so patronising only spoken so, or did you analyse them to be so?

@Tempest: Well said, and I agree completely. I also believe class plays into his character. He comes from a 'noble' family with little money, and I think he may view it as Napoleon viewed his own, with the way his father acts. I think far too many people prefer to stop at the surface rather than actually read into what NPCs say.

If you notice, the only times he acts so, ah, 'coddling' is when his temper hasn't flared yet. When it has, he brings up CHARNAME's strength and resents that which he lacks. The only reason I would dislike him if I met him is that I don't appreciate false visages, even when they're probably for the best.