9 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

But he doesn't have to be.

Looking through, I just discovered that there are actually 5 levels of TO, and the higher levels would make for a MUCH more interesting fight, but as it stands, it's pretty much impossible to see the 3 higher levels.

The level of TO that you get is dependent on YOUR level, but unfortunately the level ranges you get are kinda ludicrous.

If you are less than 19th level, you get TRANS1.CRE: a measly 320 hp, AC -3, and weapon resistances of 50%.

If you are between 19th and 33th (and virtually everyone will fall in this range), he gets 350 hp, AC -4, weapon resistances 55%.

You have to actually be between 34th and 66th level to see version 3: 500 hp, AC -5, weapon resistances 60%

You have to be between 67th and 89th level to see version 4: 750 hp, AC -7, weapon resistances 65%

And finally, for the strongest version of TNO, you need to be 90th level: 999 hp, AC -10, weapon resistances 75%.



I'm going to playtest this a bit, but I suspect you'd pretty much have to get to the fourth or fifth versions for a real challenge if you've got your whole party fighting with you.

Anyways. Those level ranges are completely ridiculous. Even if you get the bronze sphere and do every last bit of content in the game, you're going to be around 26th level as a mage when you meet TO. A thief would probably be higher, but even then at best he'd get the 3rd version. You'd have to farm Undersigil for-freakin'-ever to get to the actual challenging TO's.

I'm not going to playtest it now, because the only save game I have at TO is with a TNO with 325 hp, which won't be remotely possible after constitution bonuses are fixed. But one way or another, I'm going to definitely write up some scripting to change those level ranges (and probably base it more on XP than on level, so that thieves don't get a much tougher fight as a penalty for an easy XP table) and so I'll probably be offering that as a Tweak for version 4.0.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Hmm, thinking about it, the thief is getting the pretty hefty bonus of a whole buttload of stat points for that higher level of his, so maybe I should just keep it level based.

Qwinn

[sanityisfortheweak]

Cool find that made me wonder...

Would it be possible for you programming people to add an option in some of the future versions of UB/Fix/Tweak that would allow players to adjust the "challenge rating" of the Transcendent One regardless of the character level you attain by the time you reach the Fortress of Regrets? Something like the game difficulty tweak that you can set on - 1 child's play (less than 19th lvl), 2 regular (19th through 33th lvl), 3 hardcore (34th to 66th lvl), 4 insane (67th-89th lvl) and 5 psychotic (90+ lvl); but this wouldn't alter the overall game difficulty (it would remain the same) just the TNO's power in the end (endboss difficulty). Sounds interesting to me...and how hard it would be to implement such a change?

Maybe you could additionally change/add some more flavor text to Deionnara's vision ("you shall meet enemies three, but none of them stronger than you in your full glory...") that would further describe the TNO's power when you meet him (the stronger the boss the frightening the text; something along the lines "I'm not sure that you can end this my love, because the more you die the more your enemies grow strong...and strong they are now. Stronger than ever"...etc for lvl 90+). Hm?

What do you think of this (just an idea)?

Edited by sanityisfortheweak, 07 May 2009 - 08:30 AM.

[Qwinn]

What I was suggesting is along the lines of changing the levels to something more realistic, like:

TO1: Under 18th level
TO2: 18-20
TO3: 21-23
TO4: 24-26
TO5: 27+

However, looking at it further, I'm more inclined to go with my original idea of basing it on XP rather than level. Going by the above formula, pretty much every thief is going to get the hardest TO, while mages would be much less likely to. I don't really see that as equitable. So it'd probably be more like:

TO1: less than 3 million xp (i.e. 18th level mage, 20th level fighter, 24th level thief)
TO2: 3 million - 4 million xp
TO3: 4 million - 5 million xp
TO4: 5 million - 7 million xp
TO5: More than 7 million xp

I may adjust this, however, based on how many NPC's it is possible for TNO to fight with. If the player has somehow or another made it impossible to get any help in the fight (or restricted to only one NPC), I'd probably adjust his difficulty downward at least one level, maybe 2. At least, I'm playing with the idea, but I'll have to playtest it some. If it turns out that soloing TO5 with a mage is effectively impossible, I don't see where I'd have much choice in the matter. If it is possible to do so, though (and I know all the dirty little overpowered tricks, muhahaha), then I will just play the xp ladder straight... after all, choices should have consequences.

I won't be changing existing game dialogue to reflect this, though. I try never to do that. I may -add- dialogue if the situation really demands it, but I'd never change what's there to begin with. And even adding dialogue is something I prefer to avoid, unless I think I have something pretty spectacular to contribute. Beyond "don't fix it if it ain't broken", I also don't want to place unnecessary demands on my translators.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 07 May 2009 - 10:26 AM.

[gothemasticator]

TO1: Under 18th level
TO2: 18-20
TO3: 21-23
TO4: 24-26
TO5: 27+

OR

TO1: less than 3 million xp (i.e. 18th level mage, 20th level fighter, 24th level thief)
TO2: 3 million - 4 million xp
TO3: 4 million - 5 million xp
TO4: 5 million - 7 million xp
TO5: More than 7 million xp

Qwinn

This is interesting, because your STR progression fixes will impact TNO's effectiveness as a fighter. I have often battled TO with an 18th level fighter, but my STR was maxed. Your xp-based progression would seem to address that situation a little better. I'll be curious to see your opinions after you playtest. My guess is that to supply reasonable challenge, you'll have to move the whole ladder down. More like:

TO1: <15th level mage, <18th level fighter, I'm ignorant of Thieves
TO2: <18th level mage, <20th level fighter, I'm ignorant of Thieves
etc.

And, ooh I'd really like it if that battle was actually challenging!

gothemasticator

[Qwinn]

Yeah. I'm actually really thankful that you can talk your way through the final fight. It takes a lot of pressure off me having to make the fight be perfectly balanced no matter what the circumstances. I mean, I'll still make it as balanced as I can, but it's not like if I fail you can't win the game.

Because of that, I'll probably be leaning toward making it harder rather than easier. We've all had 8 years of an easy-as-hell TO. Let's make it a -challenge-. And since it'll be a tweak anyway, why not?

I would actually be tempted to do the same for Trias... he has 3 different strength levels, and that's determined by how many "good" quests you do in Curst Gone, and what I would do is make it where, for example, you only got the easiest version if you did -every- possible "good" quest in the best way... but I still hear people complain that the Trias fight is too hard, so. Course, when they say that, I have no idea if they skipped all the quests or not. Shrug.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 May 2009 - 01:18 PM.

[Qwinn]

One of the things that I think was supposed to make the final fight hard, but failed, is that the Guardian Mantle spell, which is the first spell TO casts, just isn't very good by the time you get to him. Basically, every time someone attacks him, he has to make a save vs. spells at a -4 penalty. SOUNDS good. But by that time, your save vs. spells is probably something like 2. And also by that time, most of that -4 penalty is probably going to be compensated for by Luck. So, yeah, it adds maybe a 5-10% chance that a hit won't get through. I think they expected this to be a lot more powerful a protective spell than it turned out to be. So when you get the lowest forms of TO, with an AC of only -3 or -4, it's silly easy to interrupt all his spells and whittle him down rather easily, even meleeing him solo as a mage.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 May 2009 - 01:41 PM.

[Philiposophy]

Having stronger versions of the Transcendent One more accessible would be very good, I think.

I'd look forward to having a real scrap if I decided to fight him. Currently he's a little too easy to defeat with a party, but that's because my Nameless One usually ends on a level between 20 and 28.

[Qwinn]

My 26th level mage actually has no problem whatsoever soloing him down to nothing, using just melee. He'd be getting the TRANS2 version, which is probably what almost everyone gets. Course, by that point I've gotten him 25 STR and 25 CON too, but that really isn't that hard to do by that point, even for a mage. Where else are you going to put all those points, really?

This is, of course, with 325 hit points due to the bug where you keep getting a CON bonus after level 10. With a 25 CON, that amounted to, um, 112 more hit points than I should have. Usually I'd finish those fights with just under half my health, so I'd probably still be able to solo him pretty easily without it... but I'll give it a bunch of playtesting when I get there during my version 4.0 test run.

Frankly, if you can solo him with a mage using just melee, no spells, it's way way way too easy. The very easiest he could arguably be should require your mage pulling every trick in the book and still die half the time anyway, cause even that is going to be absurdly easy for a full party fight.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 May 2009 - 05:51 PM.

[xantrius]

Sounds awesome, the TO was too easy.

Also I'd love to see Trias being able to shift between the 3 different strength levels as you mention. I have always found my fights with him trivial. Or maybe implement it as a tweak instead.