57 replies to this topic

[smoky tune]

Sorry smoky tune, I have to disagree with you about this kit's balance. You're giving the bard most of the powers of being a cleric (access to all clerical spells levels 1-6), none of the disadvantages (highly limited weapon selection), you're throwing in a few goodies besides (regeneration, FTW, though all of the chants are better than a regular bard gets at the same level), and on top of that, he gets thieving abilities. OK, so he can't pick pockets. He's still detecting and disarming traps, using stealth and opening locks. And picking pockets is probably the least useful of the thief skills, IMO. Even a fighter/cleric can't use a bow, but there's nothing to stop a bard from using one.

I can't agree with you neither
Though this bard gains cleric spells, he still remains a bard:
He cannot wear armour greater than chainmail, while clerics can use plates.
He uses thac0 progression table for thieves, which is worse than clerics' one.
And yes, what thieving abilities were you talking about?
Getting access to priest spells, he however can cast lesser amount of them per level, and doesn't recieve bonus spells from high wisdom. On the other hand, to tell the truth, this is compensated by his chants, because all of them simulate cleric spells, with less power but affecting all party members:
Sanctum is like lvl 1 Remove Fear + ST bonus
Contegitas is like limited combination of Protections from Fire/Acid/Cold/Lightning.
Consilium is a limited lvl 5 Chaotic Commands but enchanted with Hold resistance. It may seem quite cheesy, especially at lvl 9, but not much actually, provided it doesn't remove already active effects.
Sanitas is a long-lasting lvl 5 Mass cure and lvl 4 Negative plane protection. Gained at lvl 14, it is available only in SoA, where there's plenty of heal-per-time-period items. So it won't be of much importance already. Besides such healing isn't very useful in battle, unlike Mass Cure spell.
Veritas is lvl 6 True seeing.
Here you can aruge that chants have unlimited uses, but actually I can't remember necessity to cast more spells that I've prepared for a well-planned day of adventures. For example, if I'm going to face Firkraag, I get all third level spell slots filled with PF Fire, and all my party gets almost totally immune to his firebreath. When I'm planning to confront mages, I memorize two True Seeing, and so on.
Finally,chants are indeed better than usual bard song, but keep in mind that all of those effects are not cumulative, and you'll gain only one of the bonuses at the moment.

Thereby there's no reason to call this kit overpowered in any way, is there?

[berelinde]

Dang. Too much Dragon Age recently. I'd still consider halving the lore ability.

And yeah, I'd still call it overpowered. Unlimited use of *any* spell is a bit much. I run clerics all the time, and I'm forever running out of spells. Then again, I don't rest after every encounter. As for the difference between a thief's combat tables and a cleric's, the difference is really not much.

Edited by berelinde, 06 February 2010 - 02:57 PM.

[smoky tune]

And yes, I forgot to say that restricting his weapons selection to only those that priest can use seems logical to me, for obvious reason, I suppose.

[berelinde]

That would help. A cleric's weapon limited weapon selection, and the lack of variety in magical maces/hammers/flails in the game, would make it a more balanced kit.

Don't forget that clerics really don't get that many spells/day. A 10th level cleric gets 4/4/3/3/2. And the wisdom bonuses aren't anything special. Gavin, an NPC cleric, has a 17 wisdom and gets a 2/2/1 bonus, bringing his total spell arsenal up to 6/6/4/3/2 at 10th level. I've been known to burn through that in one encounter, let alone patching everyone up afterward.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Don't forget that clerics really don't get that many spells/day. A 10th level cleric gets 4/4/3/3/2. And the wisdom bonuses aren't anything special. Gavin, an NPC cleric, has a 17 wisdom and gets a 2/2/1 bonus, bringing his total spell arsenal up to 6/6/4/3/2 at 10th level. I've been known to burn through that in one encounter, let alone patching everyone up afterward.

Well, when considering if the bard kit is OP, you must realize that the bard can get spells, but how many... while Gavin is at level 10, his XP is 450 000Xp, and with Bard that means 12nd level that 440 000 Xp... and that means that the bard gains total of 3/3/3/2 'clerical' wizard spells. Too much? To me, no...
But then again my clerics gain their 1st level spells every 60 real seconds after they use one, while their 2nd level spells are gained 105 seconds after usage... and the 7th level spells are regained 420 seconds after usage. All because I adjusted an old mod to my liking.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 06 February 2010 - 04:53 PM.

[smoky tune]

Unlimited use of *any* spell is a bit much.

Then original skald kit is way too OP, because it combines doubled Defensive Harmony, Protection From Fear, as well as Confusion and Stun Immunity.

I run clerics all the time, and I'm forever running out of spells.

Never had such a problem. Even with SCS my clerics run out of spell only after the toughest battles. Usually they have 1/3 of spells unused.

As for the difference between a thief's combat tables and a cleric's, the difference is really not much.

Alright, taking into account bards' faster lever progression they have approximately equal thac0 with the only (but somewhat important) difference. Resulting thac0 for clerics is 6 while thieves' is only 10. All I wanted to say is that they do not get all priests benefits.

... the lack of variety in magical maces/hammers/flails in the game...

Jarno Mikkola, the main question is what spell progression table does this kit use - bards' or clerics'?
Anyway it is of no great importance for me as long as he doesn't replace pure cleric (personally I believe he shouldn't just like simple bard can't replace mage or sorceror).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Jarno Mikkola, the main question is what spell progression table does this kit use - bards' or clerics'?
Anyway it is of no great importance for me as long as he doesn't replace pure cleric (personally I believe he shouldn't just like simple bard can't replace mage or sorceror).

What do you mean what progression table, it's always main class specified, in this case, the Bard table, of course it can be extended with spell effects in the ADULC.2da, but still, if we change the Bards rules, this Kits rules change with the same extend(as we can overwrite the mxsplbrd.2da table, like the Rogue Rebalance and BG2Tweak packs do, if you install their specified components for this change).

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 07 February 2010 - 10:42 AM.

[smoky tune]

Agreed

[Adul]

I am delighted to see that my favorite kit has generated such detailed discussion on balance. I do not consider the chanter to be overpowered when compared to vanilla bard kits, but I understand that this is completely subjective and others may see the changes I made differently.

To be fair, I will add below a description of each of the HLA's (high level abilities) the chanter has, as in the long run these contribute a lot to kit balance.


Extra Level 4 Spell: As the vanilla bard HLA of the same name.

Extra Level 5 Spell: As the vanilla bard HLA of the same name.

Extra Level 6 Spell: As the vanilla bard HLA of the same name.

Alchemy: As the vanilla bard HLA of the same name.

Scribe Scrolls: As the vanilla bard HLA of the same name.

Magic Flute: As the vanilla bard HLA of the same name.


Mantra of Purification
Level: Quest (6)
Range: Touch
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: 4
Area of Effect: 1 Creature
Saving Throw: None

The caster of this spell augments a sound with divine power. The mantra created this way has the ability to transform the body of a single creature, cleaning away wounds and illnesses.

Practically, this spell combines the effects of the heal and lesser restoration spells. However, it does not exhaust the caster.


Warding Whisper
Level: Quest (6)
Range: Touch
Duration: 2 rounds
Casting Time: 1
Area of Effect: 1 Creature
Saving Throw: None

This spell enables the chanter to imbue an ally with almost complete immunity to offensive magic. For two rounds, the recipient gains 100% magic resistance. After the spell wears off, he will become vulnerable to magic once again.


Purgatorium

This powerful chant is the chanter's alternative to the turn undead ability of clerics. Any demonic or undead creature hearing it needs to roll a saving throw vs. death each round or be destroyed. If it successfully rolls its save, it will still take 4D6 fire damage.


Improved Chanting

Choosing this ability replaces the chanter's chants in the following manner.

Sanctum: +4 to all saves instead of +2

Contegitas: +40% to resistances instead of +20%

Sanitas: regenerates 3 HP per round instead of 1 HP


Restful Meditation

Focusing inward for a moment the chanter refreshes his mind, recalling two memorized spells which he has already cast. These spells are chosen by spell level, and the highest level spells are returned first. In addition, restful meditation will clear any state of exhaustion.

This ability can be taken 3 times for a total of 3 uses per day.

[Adul]

Okay, there was an error in the kit's 2DA file that prevented it from getting the sanitas chant (health regeneration) at level 14. It certainly took me a while to detect this issue, but now it's fixed, and you can implement the fix by downloading the new version 1.1, then replacing the ADULC.2DA file in the BG2 override folder with the one in the archive, under the ChanterKit folder.

[Jarno Mikkola]

then replacing the ADULC.2DA file in the BG2 override folder with the one in the archive, under the ChanterKit folder.

... and then level up the character at least one time, so the tables spells get recasted to the character in question...
Had you already started and leveled the character above the required level...

Hmm, still haven't really tried this kit... really would like to... maybe the band of bards (team of 6 Bards)really becomes much better with this one.

[Adul]

Actually I'm currently playing through the game with this kit as the protagonist with NPC companions. The advantages may sound overpowered at first, but it is really not more powerful than other bard kits, in fact I am having much more trouble with certain encounters when compared to other playthroughs. Although chants can make some vampire and mage encounters easier when being used right.

EDIT: Oh, and it helps tremendously with the micro-management if you use an auto-bardsong script.

Edited by Adul, 03 May 2010 - 08:46 AM.

[smoky tune]

For the last three time I've played with bards and I these guys. Now I'm glad that to a list of roles a bard can play in your party (support mage (buffer, summoner, debuffer), damage dealer, tank) yet another one is added: buffer-healer.
Some futher analysis of the kit:
With magic flute he gets access to a powerful offensive arcane spell: delayed blast fireball.
As long as he cannot use scrolls of arcane magics, his HLA "Scribe Scrolls" is useless for him. And how a bard specialized in divine spells can subscribe scrolls of arcane magic?

SOME SPOILERS:
The possibility to use any kind of weapon along with priest spells in wizard's book makes usage of Dak'kon's Zerth Blade overpowered IMO.
There's another advantage for chanter over clerics: as he gains levels faster, spells that improve with caster level (Armor of Faith, Call upon Holy Might, Barskin*, Holy Smite, Unholy Blight, Poison, Magic Resistance etc.) will improve faster and grant him good offensive/defencive possibilities.
* Barskin is an ultimate defence spell for chanter: on 20th level for example it will grant him effect of wearing full plate mail (AC 1) and goes in no comparison to arcane armour spells. Combined with AC-enchancing items and dexterity bonus this will let him go melee Buff him Holy Power (4) and he'll become a dangerous destructing machine... especially if surrounded with Blade Barrier. Tenser's Transformation at the same time is a lvl 6 spell.
By the way, maximum arcane spell level is 9 so standard bard usually lacks high level mage spells. But maximum divine spell level is 7, so a chanter gets access to almost all high level priest spells

For a test I've created a half-elven lvl 20 chanter (2,2kk exp) [18 18 16 7 16 13], put proficiency in katanas and single weapon, gave him Ring of Protection +2, Cloak of the Sewers, Dak'kon's Zerth Blade. Thus he got 90 hp, AC 1 (no armour), thac0 8.
The buffed him Barskin (AC became -, Defensive Harmony ( AC -10), Holy Power (108 hp, 18/00 str, thac0 -2) and Armour of Faith (25% res. to all types of damage).
No futher comments needded I suppuse.

END SPOILERS.

I haven't tested it yet, but I suppose that this bard's songs are less useful as skald's one because the latter is used in every battle (with a possible exception of confrontations with mages) and the former ones are suited for special cases only.
What song would you use fighting dragons? Contegitas? No, 20% resist bonus is too little. Sanctum only comes to mind, because of it's bonuses to STs and fear resistance. Not much I would say.
Fighting illithids you should buff chaotic commands, songs are of little use here.
Beholders cast different spells, so the 1st level song Sanctum is again preferrable.
As you can see song won't be a great advantage in a half of the toughest battles in the game.
Resistance to stun is quite cheesy, but the problem is as easily resolved with Remove Paralyse spell.
Sanitas will be of great use when fighting vampires, but such items as Mace of Disruption and Amulet of Power make this battles unseriously easy. The main advantage of this song is healing, which let's say grants everyone ring of regeneration.
Veritas is not more powerful than inquisitor's true sight innate ability, or priest of helm's one. Moreover illusions is not an ultimate defence for spellcasters.
To sum up I'd like to say that this kit doesn't solve all party's troubles with one click. It requires preparing for battles and trying different tactics.

[smoky tune]

I wonder how am I supposed to create a new character when on spells selection screen all spells are faded as well as the 'next' button?
I encounter this problem in my BWP set and in clean BG2 setup.
In my BGT installation I can create a chanter because in SoA section he starts as lvl 1 character but with 89k exp. So the spell selection screen does not appear. However when exported-imported the character class is set to bard and he doesn't gain his special songs.
Perhaps some mod that makes your character lvl 1 at SoA start could help, but I don't know any.
Even if such mod exists, IMO there should be more convenient way to solve this. Any clues?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Any clues?

Attached Files

•  xppatch.rar   8.15K   304 downloads

[smoky tune]

Thanks much for that, it really helped.
But as a proverb says "trouble doesn't come alone". After patching my game started to run incredibly slowly. Restoring backup file didn't help
It is animation that runs slow. When I click some char to move, he either frozes and appears only on a destination spot or moves jerkily. Other BG setups run properly. Overwriting bgmain.exe with ones from other installations didn't help. I didn't do anything but patched bgmain.exe with that patcher. What's wrong?

[Jarno Mikkola]

But as a proverb says "trouble doesn't come alone". After patching my game started to run incredibly slowly. Restoring backup file didn't help ...What's wrong?

1. Always patch the game(s) with the latest official patch, start a new game and exit after the game has auto-saves itself(so you have to make a char or choose a pre-made one), before you install any mod, and you might as well make a safe backup from the important files: data and override -folders, baldur.exe, BGMain.exe, dialog.tlk and CHITIN.key, in the unmoded game this should take about 960 to 1020 MB's, depending on how the computer counts it, or use the BWS to do it with a lot less space required.
2. Put the ambient sounds off from the BGConfig.exe, as some of the areas might have no ambient sounds and so the game tries to start them many time continuously, and so looses processing power.
3. Get a huge RAM storage, and set the Cache size to huge from the BGConfig.exe... the recommendations wary, but it can be from the 300 to 4000(Mb's) depending on the size of your installation and how large the .bif files end up being. This will eat your hard drive space fast, but only temporarily.
4. Don't mess with the game configurations so the speed adjustment percentages stay on "normal" ratings even if you have very high end machine, as the game has own it's internal fps counter, it sometimes tries to correct the fps on it's own by lowering graphs etc. Also the games frame rate should be set to about 30, as that's the default.
5. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to install any of the speaking item mods, as they use the only script the game uses to control everything essential, and as the mod changes the complete structure of the baldur.bcs to fire the comments everywhere, that's bad for the frames/second count, and can make the everything essential not to work, and that's bad and worse.
6. Trying to avoid too many effects on a character(about 20 is fine, 200 is too many, and 20 000 is way way too many...)
7. De-fragmenting your hard drive might also help... as you don't have to go find the data in the pieces. (hmm, there is a joke in there, hih)
8. Before installing the mods, plan the exact order, so they are in correct order, and make sure if you uninstalled the game that you deleted the old mod files, the data and override folders(don't go and overwrite them) so you can start from a clean install, so there is no leftovers from old mods.
9. Helpful links for Tutu and BGT(the English and German .pdf files) -based Megamods. And the most recent BWP vX, which today is the v9..., or later.
10. Take note that you should have done all the points 1-9 before you install any mods! But you should be able to do them still, with few alterations.
11. When you make an install order, make it the final install order, so do not expect yourself be able to install and uninstall any mods or their components after you have started a new game, and if you use biffing; a new install restart, or your saves and probably the whole game will get cheesed if you uninstall and reinstall/change install components. The only exception is the so called 'Hot Fixes'. So if a mod is updated with a new version, DO NOT INSTALL IT, unless you wish to restart the current game from a a totally new game, and probably from a new install too.
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12. And when you have installed all the mods you are going to, it might be a good idea to test your game to make sure your mods work, particularly any newer or untested mods. Once you are satisfied your install works, and only then, you will want biff your override folder, but do that knowing that you generally can't change the game much after. The easiest way to do this is to use the End_biff from here, or the more modern Generalized Biffing.
13. Repeat the step 7 again, if you think it might help.
14. Run as few programs on the background while playing as possible, if you think it might help. And scan for viruses, but do so when you are not playing the game... so don't have the Anti virus program running in the background.
15. When you quit the game, delete all the files from the Cache, temp and tempsave folders, if the game even puts any files in these. This might cause a little loading time increase, but it is worth it, cause it removes lags and assertion errors when playing the game.
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16. Inventory management(no stacks that have more than about 200 items, in a bag, arrows etc.), -might also help, as in if you drop an item to the ground and or store it in a stash the stuttering might go away in a few seconds there after. And do not carry too many bags of holding and the like storage_items.
17. NPC management, some mods might cause lag if a particular NPC is in the party for some odd reason or another, so if dropping the NPC from the party and waiting a few seconds, results in the end of the lag or stuttering, you should do so. And don't forget that somebody needs to know about it, the circumstance this happens etc. good debugging info...
18. Play the game yourself! So, if needed for large battles etc. heavy AI usage requiring encounters, turn the group AI's off by pushing the glowing lantern on the bottom right corner of the screen so it's not lightened anymore, unless it's strictly necessary for 1 action or another... as it might be needed to be running... for example while you level up with a few mod installed Kits, and if possible make the characters AI to be the None, or very limited and small script, such as auto attacking an seen enemy if the character is idle in battle.
19. Complete all the quests you are given, as in a long game, some scripts that are looking IF you have this-or-that quest active, will be screaming and causing lags, if their checks are in global category and they remain true all the time... it can be very bad, but the mod doing this should be fixed.
20. For some unexplained reason, when you have played the game quite long time, starting a new game so it autosaves in ToB and importing the BG1 or SoA game in, might help to clear out some of the stutter in them, even after you go back and load the game in the BG1 or BG2 portion of the game, we have to investigate this a bit.
21. And if you know your way around coding a .tp2 file and have file name knowledge, you can debug files with a custom made mod based on this.
21.1 The other is to play the game as far as humanly possible can with the growing stutter/lag/slowdown until you can't take it anymore, and make more than one save along the way, then install the LStest mod from the bottom of this thread, use NearInfinity to export the script source of the .bcs's that are reported by the dialog window the most frequently, and report us what it gives and upload the exported .baf files as they are easier to read, and someone should be able to help you then. Then you can uninstall the LStest mod, copy the fixed .bcs file to the 'override' folder if someone is able to help you, and then you get to play the game once more. If you do not have a NearInfinity, then follow the Answer 11 in this post.*
22. Keep in mind that these advices won't solve the whole problem, as there can be things that make a lot of lag for no apparent reason, until they are found, and then it's more than obvious... like the ambient sounds caused lagging problem, it's caused by missed files that references have never been rechecked to be accurate.
23. The last miracle cure, while you are desperate, and so still reading this, let me remind you that there is nothing at the bottom of the barrel, so you have probably missed one of the earlier tweaks, so it's time to recheck them again. And the latest version is of this Mini infopack is the only accurate one, as I might have changed a few of the above mentioned things, after the last time you have read them, so read them again.

[smoky tune]

Thanks again for your replies, but I'm sure there was some bug or error in the game so I decided just to reinstall everything. It helped indeed.

[Adul]

I've done another update to version 1.2 today, which fixes the bug that made it impossible to start a chanter at levels over level 1.

I've basically done what Icen has recommended *cough* over a year ago *cough* and added a "dummy kit" that resembles the real kit in every way except for the restriction flags, and now you choose this kit at character selection, which allows you to select from mage spells. Then, once you start your character, the AI script immediately switches your kit to the real one, adding the abilities and also removing all mage spells from your spell book.

[Jarno Mikkola]

and added a "dummy kit" that resembles the real kit in every way except for the restriction flags,

Like the Refinements mod did...
It might be a good idea to mention that one cannot have more than (256-(32+installed kits))(/2 if you have refinements installed)=x kits in the game, and your mod installs two kits in one_*cough*...