25 replies to this topic

[njw]

Hi Qwinn,

Firstly thanks alot for all the work you've done here. I've just recently got hold of a copy of PS:T and am playing through it for the first time.

I'm currently in the process of making some installers for IE games natively for Linux (just as awesome bash scripts), and am planning to include your mods as optional extras as part of the install as well.

Thing is that the .rar format is not that well supported in Linux (it's proprietary and no-one's done the work to properly reverse-engineer it yet), and while one can get a freeware extractor few of the distributions will ship it due to its license constraints. This means extra hoops to jump through to install your mods, which is bad, and some users may not be keen on agreeing to the terms of the freeware unrar license.

So I was wondering if you'd consider repackaging (either as an extra option or instead of) your mod in .zip format, which is easy for anyone in the world to use. I don't think the compression is too much worse, and I think the extra compatibility would be well worth it.

Thanks very much, again, and keep up the awesome work!

Nick

[the bigg]

license constraints.

Pull your head out of your arse. PST already has a restrictive license, and I don't see how PST's license is any better or worse than the RAR license.

[njw]

PST already has a restrictive license, and I don't see how PST's license is any better or worse than the RAR license.

That's true. However I'm writing this largely with GemRB in mind, which is GPLv2 licensed.

Also the first half of my point still stands:

while one can get a freeware extractor few of the distributions will ship it due to its license constraints. This means extra hoops to jump through to install your mods, which is bad

[the bigg]

sudo sed -e's/main.*/main restricted universe multiverse/g' -i /etc/apt/sources.list
sudo apt-get install unrar rar

Besides, GemRB is quite a bit forward thinking (BG2 isn't yet properly playable, and it's the closest to completion). Besides, PST Fixpack still has bigger hurdles than .rar or .zip if it were to be converted to GemRB anyway (there's sections of code that depend on the executable, and those need rewriting/rethinking for GemRB).

Edited by the bigg, 15 April 2009 - 04:26 AM.

[njw]

sudo sed -e's/main.*/main restricted universe multiverse/g' -i /etc/apt/sources.list
sudo apt-get install unrar rar

How simple this is depends on your knowledge of the system. But enough of that.

GemRB is quite a bit forward thinking

Yup, sure is, but it's a nice project and I wanted to help out in my own small way by writing some installers, even if it won't be ready for the prime time for a while yet.

there's sections of code that depend on the executable, and those need rewriting/rethinking for GemRB

You guys certainly know the fixpack code much better than I do, but looking through the readme and pst-fix/tph/enginefixes.tph I don't see anything which is required for a separate part of a patch to work; that is any patches which would break things without the exe patches being applied.

As there are plenty of useful patches outside of the main engine, could you point me to any which also require the exe modifications, so I can disable them in my installer?

Thanks alot,

Nick

[the bigg]

If you don't know tp2 language, the quickest way is to comment (/*...*/) the section(s) of code (in find . -iname '*.tp*') that start with COPY ~torment.exe~ ~torment.exe~ (as judged by indentation).

[njw]

If you don't know tp2 language, the quickest way is to comment (/*...*/) the section(s) of code (in find . -iname '*.tp*') that start with COPY ~torment.exe~ ~torment.exe~ (as judged by indentation).

Thanks. I grepped through the *.tp* files, and the only modifications to torment.exe were those that I went through in the tph/enginefixes.tph file. As I mentioned these look to me to all be safely independent from the other patches. Is this a reasonable assumption?

Thanks for your help.

Edited by njw, 15 April 2009 - 10:04 AM.

[scient]

The problem is a number of Qwinn's fixes have been setup to specifically work with the engine fixes. For example, PermaStatChange workaround he had was depreciated for engine fix. There are changes based on morale system I setup, ITM flag for rat charm, changes to Eli Havelock based on PickPocketFailed fix, and secret door in Tenements of Thugs. There might be more, those are ones I can think of off top of my head. Why would you even want to not use the engine fixes? It doesn't make sense. You'd be better off using v2 of fixpack rather than v3.

[Qwinn]

I'd have to say that I share thebigg's objections.

That's true. However I'm writing this largely with GemRB in mind, which is GPLv2 licensed.

I would assume that would get around problems with the Infinity Engine license, but that doesn't say anything about the PS:T or Planescape or D&D licenses.

Secondly, and this applies to anyone who's thinking of rehosting my mods: please, do not. You do not have my permission. There are a good number of reasons for this, which I can get into if I absolutely must, but from the beginning and continuing forward, whenever asked I am denying requests to rehost my mods. Feel free to link. I know it's been rehosted a few times already on different-language sites, and although it is annoying that I was never asked permission, I am mostly okay with it because it will indeed be easier for the users to download it from a site in their own language. But any redistribution or rehosting on English sites in particular is not authorized or condoned by me, and while I have no legal power to prevent it, I -can- say that A) you suck, and B) you are a disincentive to me continuing to support the mods. That's all.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 15 April 2009 - 11:40 AM.

[njw]

Why would you even want to not use the engine fixes? It doesn't make sense.

As I explained above, the primary target is GemRB, which is a reimplementation of the Infinity Engine. So exe patching wouldn't make sense, and the work would have to be done in GemRB in due course (which would be a good while away).

I would assume that would get around problems with the Infinity Engine license, but that doesn't say anything about the PS:T or Planescape or D&D licenses.

That's right. I was talking about those who care a great deal about the license of any code they run, but who do not necessarily feel the same about the licenses of non-code files.

to anyone who's thinking of rehosting my mods: please, do not.

No problem - I was never planning to; that's why I came here to ask you about it.

You'd be better off using v2 of fixpack rather than v3.

Sounds like that's true. Is there anywhere I can get it?

If not I guess I should just call it quits and leave the fixpack out of my installer - I didn't anticipate it being this big of a deal. I evidently should have read up a little more on its history and workings. Apologies for hassling you guys.

[Qwinn]

No problem - I was never planning to; that's why I came here to ask you about it.

I am confused. Were you not "planning to include [my] mods as optional extras as part of the install"? That is essentially the same as hosting them elsewhere. If there is a substantive difference, please let me know, since it may change things.

Apologies for hassling you guys.

No worries, I don't think I ever posted my position on this publicly before, so additional research wouldn't have helped. Thanks for respecting my position on it.

Sounds like that's true. Is there anywhere I can get it?

I'm afraid not. One of the Two Big Reasons for my not wanting it hosted elsewhere is the specific desire not to have to maintain multiple versions, which would be inevitable when other hosting sites failed to update on a timely basis.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 15 April 2009 - 01:25 PM.

[the bigg]

Secondly, and this applies to anyone who's thinking of rehosting my mods: please, do not. You do not have my permission.

Go search and download the bios for a Saltek SL-85SD-C. See if you don't change the opinion about this "permission" bullshit shortly thereafter.

[Qwinn]

Whatever point you're trying to make, it's a bit too cryptic for me, thebigg.

If you object to my not handing out permission, is your point that I am obligated to provide support for multiple versions when people -inevitably- come here seeking answers to questions, and it's not until I've spent several hours working on the problem that I figure out they're on an old version? Cause I feel no such obligation. Of course, people will be able to steal my work and rehost it and there's no legal remedy for it, but why do you have a problem with me asking them not to?

Qwinn

[scient]

I think he meant the original company for Saltek went out of business and the homepage is now defunct. So, having the firmware posted on other sites let users still have access. But I don't see how that example applies unless SHS plans on shutting down soon.

Why would you even want to not use the engine fixes? It doesn't make sense.

As I explained above, the primary target is GemRB, which is a reimplementation of the Infinity Engine. So exe patching wouldn't make sense, and the work would have to be done in GemRB in due course (which would be a good while away).

If what you're working on is geared toward GemRB, why would you want a PST fixpack?

Edited by scient, 15 April 2009 - 01:48 PM.

[Qwinn]

Oh. Hey. Once I stop maintaining my mods, which I don't think is likely anytime soon, sure, I won't have any objection to multiple host sites. If that's the problem, there's the solution.

If what you're working on is geared toward GemRB, why would you want a PST fixpack?

GemRB is basically a rebuilding of the Infinity Engine from scratch. In theory, you can play PS:T using it rather than the Torment.exe that shipped with the game.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 15 April 2009 - 01:50 PM.

[the bigg]

SHS failing is just one example. I'm sure that spending an afternoon checking all google hits for a piece of hardware and having them all pointing to the defunct producer page rather than finding one hosting the actual driver is better teaching than any amounts of words I might write, and will make you change your opinion about having additional hosters in normal conditions.

If you're worried about the additional support burden, that's what VERSION is for (and if somebody alters the mod code without adding a note in the VERSION or notifying you, well, that's the author being stupid, and not something you can control with all that "permission, permission, permission, permission").

[Qwinn]

Like I said - when I have stopped maintaining my mods (for a period of more than a few months anyway), everyone's got full permission to go ahead and rehost 'em. That's fine. And if SHS fails before that, I'll be almost certain to find another site to host 'em.

And sure, VERSION is nice if I actually think to look for it in the log. Whether I remember to do so before wasting any time looking at the errors themselves is something I'd rather not have to be chained to.

But as long as I'm maintaining 'em, I want one place to do so. I'd also like to have something like an accurate download count. I don't know why this preference of mine should be causing anyone any heartache. SHS is alive and well, and I have a pretty much constant presence on these forums, so what's the problem?

Qwinn

[njw]

I am confused. Were you not "planning to include [my] mods as optional extras as part of the install"? That is essentially the same as hosting them elsewhere. If there is a substantive difference, please let me know, since it may change things.

My plans were to ask the user to download the patch archive in advance (or just download it for them), then basically unrar it and roll it into the ps:t installation with WeiDU (using the language chosen when they installed), without any further interference (or requisite knowledge) required. So I wouldn't have hosted it, just rolled it into an integrated install.

But it seems pretty clear that for the fixpack this is going to be too difficult to get right, so I'll leave it out. People who know enough to deal with it can come here and install it themselves, after all. Perhaps sometime in the future if/when GemRB is nearer completion I'll have another look at the feasibility of rolling this work into the installer.

Thanks again

-Nick

P.S. The installers, in case you're interested, will be announced in the next few days on the GemRB forum on Gibberlings3, and their current (unreleased) state of development can be seen at http://git.njw.me.uk...gameinstallers/

Edited by njw, 15 April 2009 - 02:15 PM.

[the bigg]

But as long as I'm maintaining 'em, I want one place to do so. I'd also like to have something like an accurate download count. I don't know why this preference of mine should be causing anyone any heartache. SHS is alive and well, and I have a pretty much constant presence on these forums, so what's the problem?

If you had followed the permission system with regards to PST, you wouldn't be able to make mods for it. If you can't see the hypocrisy in claiming 'permission system' yourself, well...

[Qwinn]

Well, xcept for the fact that Chris Avellone and Colin McComb seemed pretty happy that I'm doing it, last few times I communicated with them...

If he'd said "cut it out, I don't like what you're doing", I would have.

Your analogy fails anyway. I'm not putting up the PS:T game itself and offering it to people to download. If I were to try to do that, I certainly would expect "permission" issues. That would be the proper analogy to other people putting up mirrors of my mods. Now if someone were to create entirely new mods that -depend- on my mods (in the same way my mods depend on someone having pre-installed PS:T itself), hey, they can feel entirely free to do so, and yes, -that- would be silly and hypocritical for me to deny permission for.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 15 April 2009 - 02:45 PM.