From my perspective, there have always been three series of dreams.
Irenicus.
Imoen.
Elliseme. (Just the one, but still.)
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It's very obvious that Elliseme is speaking to you directly by conduit of the dream... and being both an elf, and something of a 'tainted one' herself, albeit with the good and noble spirit of the elven god in her case, I have no trouble buying that she could reach into your dreams.
It's also obvious that it can't be internal. At this point in the game, you've never /met/ nor /seen/ her, so... where would that image come from? It's hard to tell whether 'And the Liars have had their say' refers to your own internal lies, or... if she is simply saying... 'Okay, you've heard Irenicus's spiel, this is the truth.'
The Imoen dreams are two seperate entities. During the candlekeep dream where you defeat the Bhaal-Taint with her help, she is clearly your soul. After that, she is clearly your Instinct... that which empowers you and promises the strength to defeat your enemies, and then stabs you in the bacck.
But the Irenicus dreams? I think they were sent by him. Consider this... he's a master of torture both physical and psychological. As he said... 'I had to show Imoen some very dark shadows indeed.' And this was before he /really/ set into her in Spellhold. Given that the protagonist is under his tender mercies for who knows how long before Imoen escaped, I have no trouble believing that Irenicus has all he needs of the main character to do something as simple as send dreams.
After all... Irenicus's dreams never really /do/ anything. They just try to encourage the main character to follow along. After all, Irenicus has no reason to bank on the character being a good and noble type, interesting in following to save Imoen. It's equally possible the PC is a raging jerk, and dosen't care. Irenicus always mentions following for noble reasons at the very end, almost as an afterthought. Given the way he thinks, that isn't surprising. "Follow... if only to protect the weak that fell because of you."
What it seems he's trying to do, is insure that the character is interested in Irenicus's ability to brink out his Bhaal power. Which Irenicus genuinely wants to do. As with Imoen, he coulden't steal her soul until he brought the Bhaal Taint to the surface.
The real kicker? Every Imoen dream has immediate and drastic consequences. In the first dream, the protagonist looses part of himself (the stat point), and then looses his soul (all his Bhaal powers.)
In the second Imoen dream, he gains the ultimately self-destructive ability to become the Slayer.
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So my take on it? The Irenicus dreams are just him nudging you from afar to insure you don't loose interest. The Imoen dreams are something /far/ more deep and internal... not messages from Bhaal. Bhaal is dead after but. But messages from the inner god-taint, all that is left without opposition once the soul is taken away.
Was Irenicus aware of the dreams you were having?
Started by dorotea, Aug 07 2003 09:38 AM
85 replies to this topic
#62
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Posted 15 August 2003 - 10:44 AM
Then again... I start to think the first Irenicus dream is very different. Irenicus only shows up at the end, and seems almost surprised to see you there. 'She resists, she clings to her old life as if it matters.' Clearly he's speaking about Imoen. But I think this is just him baiting you too. After all... the dreams usually happen in Chapter 2.
Irenicus has not taken over Spellhold nor resumed torturting Imoen yet! He's still playing 'prisoner'.
You /always/ see Imoen in the dream... but is it... Imoen. Or is it your soul in the background, which Irenicus always tortures at the end. Perhaps Imoen has always represented the same thing, your soul, all along.
Irenicus has not taken over Spellhold nor resumed torturting Imoen yet! He's still playing 'prisoner'.
You /always/ see Imoen in the dream... but is it... Imoen. Or is it your soul in the background, which Irenicus always tortures at the end. Perhaps Imoen has always represented the same thing, your soul, all along.
#63
Snowking
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Posted 15 August 2003 - 08:47 PM
I don't know if this has already been said, but it could possibly be Jonny.
He's got his own underground empire a pocket plane of air , all undetected.
(Though what's up with the goblins??)
He's obviously trying to lure you into the trap.
He's got his own underground empire a pocket plane of air , all undetected.
(Though what's up with the goblins??)
He's obviously trying to lure you into the trap.
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#64
Tancred
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Posted 16 August 2003 - 03:20 AM
Is Irenicus' capture by the Cowled Wizards an orchestrated event or an unplanned one?
#65
dorotea
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witch extraordinaire
Posted 16 August 2003 - 04:55 AM
At some point I suspected him of orchestrating the whole ordeal - but remembering the 'I cannot be caged understand it as you die ever pathetic ever fools' scene, I think he is genuinely angry as he takes over the Asylum. So, I would say he did not expect it , but he was pretty sure he can break out of any prizon when he was taken, and thus allowed himself to be captured together with Immy.Is Irenicus' capture by the Cowled Wizards an orchestrated event or an unplanned one?
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
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#66
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Posted 16 August 2003 - 11:19 AM
Agreed. Remember, in Jon's diary he comments on this. He's a genius, yes... but he described his condition as 'Succumbing to all the hallmarks of senility with the rage and power of a young elf to lament it.' Indeed, the PC's escape in the first place was likely due to Jon making some small mistake or error the last time he had Imoen locked up. I think he simply got bushwhacked when the Shadow Thieves attacked. Of course, the Shadow Thieves in turn had /no clue/ just what kind of monster they were tackling.
Hence, Jon letting himself get captured... and he may well have /had/ to let himself get captured, since the Cowled wizards made a point that eventually he would have been overwhelmed, was probably just quick thinking on his part.
Hence, Jon letting himself get captured... and he may well have /had/ to let himself get captured, since the Cowled wizards made a point that eventually he would have been overwhelmed, was probably just quick thinking on his part.
#67
Bruno
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Posted 19 August 2003 - 02:16 PM
AD&D Player's Handbook"I think that would be the most likely, Irenicus was a powerful mage but not *that* powerful. "
"Dream" (8th level spell)
The mage can talk to a person through his/her dreams .
Yes , he *is* that powerful.
"Where the bad folks go when they die ? They don't go heaven where the angels fly...
They go to a lake of fire and fry , you won't see them again till fourth july ..."
They go to a lake of fire and fry , you won't see them again till fourth july ..."
#68
The Amazing Maurice
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Did-a-chick? Dad-a-cham? Ded-a-check?
Posted 21 August 2003 - 01:47 PM
I am no D&D expert but this a excerpt:AD&D Player's Handbook
"I think that would be the most likely, Irenicus was a powerful mage but not *that* powerful. "
"Dream" (8th level spell)
The mage can talk to a person through his/her dreams .
Yes , he *is* that powerful.
"The communication is one-way; the recipient cannot ask questions or offer information, nor can the sender gain any information by observing the dreams of the recipient."
Obviously Irenicus and <CHARNAME> talk to each other in the dream sequences...
#69
Tancred
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Posted 21 August 2003 - 03:47 PM
So we can assume that's exactly what Ellesime did, then?
#70
Escuan
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Posted 25 August 2003 - 10:32 PM
I am no D&D expert but this a excerpt:
AD&D Player's Handbook
"I think that would be the most likely, Irenicus was a powerful mage but not *that* powerful. "
"Dream" (8th level spell)
The mage can talk to a person through his/her dreams .
Yes , he *is* that powerful.
"The communication is one-way; the recipient cannot ask questions or offer information, nor can the sender gain any information by observing the dreams of the recipient."
Obviously Irenicus and <CHARNAME> talk to each other in the dream sequences...
I'm not sure but I believe if a mage is a high enough level he can create or modify a prexisting spell. So it is possible that Irenicus could have changed the dream spell so he and the pc could have a conversation or just used his power to make his own spell. But then again when the pc has these dreams while Irenicus is locked up in Spellhold. But the scene where Irenicus escaps it seems he wasn't heavily guarded. The two wizards we see didn't think much about any of the prisoners (exept Imoen) and were completly caught off guard by Irenicus. So I guess they couldn't have noticed if Irenicus was creating a new spell or whatever.
BTW, did anyone find it real obvious that the wizard/tour guide you meet when you enter spellhold was Irenicus? I thought it was really stupid you couldn't acusse him outright that he was really Irenicus (although the prissoners were really interesting).
#71
Bruno
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Posted 27 August 2003 - 02:26 PM
A new spell ?So I guess they couldn't have noticed if Irenicus was creating a new spell or whatever.
"Irenicus: Casts Wish"
"Genie:What do you wish"
"Irenicus: I wish to double the effects of 'Dream' "
He's a 30rd level mage , I mean, few things are beyond his magical spells and rituals .
"Where the bad folks go when they die ? They don't go heaven where the angels fly...
They go to a lake of fire and fry , you won't see them again till fourth july ..."
They go to a lake of fire and fry , you won't see them again till fourth july ..."
#72
Jinnai
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Bye Sanzo! You'll play with me again next time?
Posted 28 August 2003 - 08:45 AM
Ahh but be careful what you wish for. Traditionally wishing is all in the wording. So he might get some effects doubled and others not, he might get the effects of normal dreams doubled instead by what he asks for and he didn't do the #1 rule...specifiy a time limit.A new spell ?So I guess they couldn't have noticed if Irenicus was creating a new spell or whatever.
"Irenicus: Casts Wish"
"Genie:What do you wish"
"Irenicus: I wish to double the effects of 'Dream' "
He's a 30rd level mage , I mean, few things are beyond his magical spells and rituals .
#73
Escuan
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Posted 08 September 2003 - 07:53 PM
You don't need the wish spell to create a new spell. It just costs alot of xp and gold (and free time in a roleplaying view).A new spell ?So I guess they couldn't have noticed if Irenicus was creating a new spell or whatever.
"Irenicus: Casts Wish"
"Genie:What do you wish"
"Irenicus: I wish to double the effects of 'Dream' "
He's a 30rd level mage , I mean, few things are beyond his magical spells and rituals .
#74
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Posted 08 September 2003 - 09:25 PM
Hehe,well,Irenicus is a 30 lvl wizard, presumably most skilled elven mage since the fall of netheril.Dont you really think he would be able to cr8 new spells?If not him, then who?C'mon...
#75
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Posted 10 September 2003 - 10:58 AM
Actually, Irenicus sais to PC in one of the dialogues "you brought us here", ie he believes that PC initiates the dreams and involves him in them. Which is irrelevant, if that is PC-imagined Irenicus, not the real one...
#76
Tancred
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Hapless Paladin
Posted 10 September 2003 - 12:13 PM
The full quote would be "You know what you want. It is you, after all, who has brought us to the dream. Nothing is real. Yet."Which is irrelevant, if that is PC-imagined Irenicus, not the real one...
The sentence 'nothing is real' deserves some scrutiny. What's he referring to?
#77
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Posted 10 September 2003 - 12:17 PM
PC's choice re: embracing his/her heritage.... 
or...literally nothing...meaning the game is not real.... 
or...literally nothing...meaning the game is not real....
#78
deganawida
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Posted 10 September 2003 - 05:18 PM
One thing that one must consider, is that Irenicus' spell did not work as intended. He did not, in fact, steal the entirety of the protagonist's soul, but instead shared it with him/her (as revealed in his final conversation in the Abyss). It could therefore be argued that Irenicus established a link to the protagonist's soul during the captivity, and that is why Jon didn't worry about being separated from the Bhaalspawn. Thus, it could have been both a combination of Irenicus and Bhaal-taint in the dreams. Or, as we know, it could be that the Bhaal essence possessed some faint knowledge of what was to happen to each of the Bhaalspawn and goaded them on to their fates.
#79
Bruno
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Posted 18 September 2003 - 02:37 PM
It could have been Irenicus , or even the taint of Bhaal .
Like a sequel for BG1 dreams .
Like a sequel for BG1 dreams .
"Where the bad folks go when they die ? They don't go heaven where the angels fly...
They go to a lake of fire and fry , you won't see them again till fourth july ..."
They go to a lake of fire and fry , you won't see them again till fourth july ..."
#80
Icefloe
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Posted 02 October 2003 - 04:39 PM
we could say that some of the dreams were 'Bhall inspired' but I'm not sure that Bhall himself actively had a hand in them, as before metioned, he's dead, though I suppose that he could be pushing around the ether somewhere, perhaps having just enough power to affect the dreams of his children or something like that. As for having any special interest in the PC, I don't see how he's really 'like' you more than anyone else. If he wanted the one most likely to revive him or whatever, why not one of 'The Five' or even somehow communing with Melisaan <sp?> Those really have alot more potential and did more to further the cause of the god of murder than the PC ever did through SoA and ToB.
Just my two and a half shillings.
Just my two and a half shillings.
