85 replies to this topic

[dorotea]

Hmm, I think I liked Quitch's approach to Imoen's mod well enough to try starting my own thread on the topic I am planning to adress in the new Redemption mod. Regardless of what I think - I solicit your opinion. Was Irenicus actively 'channeling' your dreams or was it all in your imagination only? Also, if you think he did not know about the dreams - how come they were aimed to lure you into Spellhold and 'awaken' your essense?

[Andyr]

I'd always thought the dreams were a result of Bhaal, as opposed to Irenicus or yourself. Like he was driving you towards your destiny. I don't know if Irenicus would have been able to alter your dreams like that.

Just my tuppence, and I suppose there's not really any evidence for my viewpoint. B)

[The Amazing Maurice]

could be your subconceousness twisting your forgotten memories of what Irenicus told you during your stay with him in the dungeoun combined with your knowledge that he is in the Spellhold.

I think that would be the most likely, Irenicus was a powerful mage but not *that* powerful.
After what he did to CHARNAME in his dungeon you'd expect your main character's head to be more than a little screwed.

But then on second thoughts wasn't the PC's dreams in BG1 controlled by Bhall? The river of blood and the whole "you *will* learn thing".

[Andyr]

^Yeah, that too and the dream you have where you go to Candlekeep and Irenicus takes your soul, thinking you'll die made me think that Bhaal was in control.

[The Amazing Maurice]

Couple of dialogs from the dream sequences

Irenicus. "She resists. She clings to her old life as though it actually matters. She will learn."
PC."What is this place? What is this all about?"
Irenicus. "It is a portrait of what has happened, and what may happen. Do you cling to the past, or can you see through the pain?"
You feel the potential within, don't you? Will you cringe from what you know you want? What you can take as your own?
You know what you want. It is you, after all, which has brought us to the dream. Nothing is real. Yet. "

Imoen. "You are to be given a gift. It is a valuable prize, one that you had better appreciate.
You worry for your comrades perhaps? Leave them, abandon them, and become what you must.
There is great power in your heritage. Use it, and you will become closer to who you are... what you could be.
Feel what is in the void. Use the tools that you are given. Become part of something greater. I am in you, and I know what is best.
Each time you use it, each time you accept it, you move a little closer to the evil within.
Perhaps you lose yourself in the end, but you will go to a greater reward than you can know.
After all, what does an eternity of nothingness matter, when you can destroy all that would oppose your development as easy as "one"..."

Now to me that sounds like Bhall is directing the dreams.....

[The Amazing Maurice]

Plus Spellhold might have been equipped with mind bending tools, since it was there where CW studied madeness and magical deviations.

Good point

[dorotea]

I'd always thought the dreams were a result of Bhaal, as opposed to Irenicus or yourself. Like he was driving you towards your destiny. I don't know if Irenicus would have been able to alter your dreams like that.

Interesting... but would not Bhaal be in favor of keeping you away from Irenicus - ie keeping you alive? Or would he actually like to see you die? Or maybe he would prefer to have Jonny take your soul after all - because Bhaal would think 'him' a better candidate?

The whole matter of Bhaal induced dreams is sort of fishy, since as we learn at the end Bhaal does not really want any child of his to succeed - he wants them to slaughter each other.

Would Bhaal be ultimately interested in Irenicus succeding in 'freeing' your taint by removing part of your soul? Also - since Irenicus gets part of the taint and the Slayer transformation - would Bhaal like this idea, and thus would want you to actually get caught and have the soul removed?

Just random questions - I have no answer to these yet, but it maybe fun to speculate on the matter.

[Andyr]

Plus Spellhold might have been equipped with mind bending tools, since it was there where CW studied madeness and magical deviations.

Good point

Indeed.

[Andyr]

I'd always thought the dreams were a result of Bhaal, as opposed to Irenicus or yourself. Like he was driving you towards your destiny. I don't know if Irenicus would have been able to alter your dreams like that.

Interesting... but would not Bhaal be in favor of keeping you away from Irenicus - ie keeping you alive? Or would he actually like to see you die? Or maybe he would prefer to have Jonny take your soul after all - because Bhaal would think 'him' a better candidate?

The whole matter of Bhaal induced dreams is sort of fishy, since as we learn at the end Bhaal does not really want any child of his to succeed - he wants them to slaughter each other.

Would Bhaal be ultimately interested in Irenicus succeding in 'freeing' your taint by removing part of your soul? Also - since Irenicus gets part of the taint and the Slayer transformation - would Bhaal like this idea, and thus would want you to actually get caught and have the soul removed?

Just random questions - I have no answer to these yet, but it maybe fun to speculate on the matter.

Well, perhaps it was the Bhaal taint in you acting subconciously, then, rather than Bhaal himself.

On one hand at that point in the game Irenicus is more powerful than you, so would be a better candidate for having your divine essence.

On the other perhaps Bhaal guided you towards Irenicus to make you more powerful and more deserving?

[dorotea]

Plus Spellhold might have been equipped with mind bending tools, since it was there where CW studied madeness and magical deviations.

Good point, yes - by the way can someone remind me - do you have the first dream after you agree to work for Bodhi/Thieves and it is about Irenicus breaking free, or is it the one about Life is ... strength?

[The Amazing Maurice]

Some more dream lines

Irenicus. "You will do what you must, become what you must, or others will pay for your cowardice.
You *will* accept the gifts offered to you.


OR

Irenicus " When the opportunity comes, accept the gifts offered to you. Follow, our meeting is inevitable."

The first, in my opinion sound's like Bhall, the second like Jon.
(BTW they depend what choices you make in the "life is strength" dream)

[The Amazing Maurice]

I think the first dream is the one with Imoen and the stone statues of Elminster and Sarevok etc. Can't remember if that's before Jon breaking out of Spellhold. I'm sure it's after.

[Andyr]

Irenicus " When the opportunity comes, accept the gifts offered to you. Follow, our meeting is inevitable."

The first, in my opinion sound's like Bhall, the second like Jon.
(BTW they depend what choices you make in the "life is strength" dream)

Hmm, Irenicus wasn't really offering you gifts..... I think this one was Bhaal, and he knew was Irenicus was planning. He could be telling you about the Slayer avatar you will be able to become, his gift? He is telling you to accept it and become the Slayer, ie murderous.

Plus if Bhaal knew Irenicus would take your soul, it would explain the Follow, our meeting is inevitable comment. Though that could just as easily have been Irenicus.

[The Amazing Maurice]

Sound's a bit like the "you *will* learn" dream in BG1as well.

[luek]

Hmm, I think I liked Quitch's approach to Imoen's mod well enough to try starting my own thread on the topic I am planning to adress in the new Redemption mod. Regardless of what I think - I solicit your opinion. Was Irenicus actively 'channeling' your dreams or was it all in your imagination only? Also, if you think he did not know about the dreams - how come they were aimed to lure you into Spellhold and 'awaken' your essense?

Sorry, delurking.

I have to admit that The Amazing Maurice came up w/ some remarkable insights and makes a very persuasive case.

I don't know, before I read his observations, I thought that maybe the dreams were a result of some experiment Irenicus performed. I also thought that maybe the PC's original escape was another experiment-hey, even on Brynnlaw, he's interested in exploring the parameters of Charname's soul, i.e. the Cowled Wizard with the Fireball book.

Of course different people have the right to different opinions, or so I hear. B)

[El Diablo]

i do not believe it is bhaal actively influencing your dreams since bhaal is dead and powerless
i also do not think its irenicus in spellhold messing with your head
i believe that durning your stay at the first dungeon irenicus "planted" certian motions and ideas into your mind which combined with a bit of trauma and the bhaal taint results in the dreams
also i like to piont out that it is actually a D&D rule that bhaal spawn have nightmares quiet often

[dorotea]

i believe that durning your stay at the first dungeon irenicus "planted" certian motions and ideas into your mind which combined with a bit of trauma and the bhaal taint results in the dreams
also i like to piont out that it is actually a D&D rule that bhaal spawn have nightmares quiet often

Can you point me out to this reference? So, the spawns of Bhaal have nightmares. Hmm... are they defines as a sub-class then? Like half-fiends or something? This is the first time I hear of spawns being mentioned outside the game actually.

[Tancred]

There is a point... when you have awoken from the soul-removal and you have defeated the Bhaal thing in the ghost Candekeep, a point when you can tell Irenicus 'Ha! I defeated your creature!' or whatever.

Jon, at that point, appears to take no notice, dismissing any visions you had as some weird adverse reaction to what happened and stressing that his experiment was a complete success. Given that your vision of battling Bhaal is very strongly like the dreams, I would think the dreams are more of a symbolic vision of your inner self.

If the vision and the dreams are linked - and they look similar - I would imagine Jon to be slightly more forthcoming about them if he had anything to do with them.