88 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

Okay, looking for input.

We've mentioned a few times before that scient was going to look at the strength progression issue, namely, the fact that during character creation, stat increases during levelups, and the strength/power of one spells, strength goes up the 18/01, 18/51, etc. ladder, but item boosts and strength boosts in dialogue do not, they just hop to 19. Virtually every fan-written strategy guide out there recommends planning on exploiting this from character creation.

We were intending to fix this, and make item boosts and dialogue boosts also use the ladder. Except here's the problem. I -believe- that it is actually 2nd ed. D&D rules that only fighters go up that progression, and that all other classes actually do go directly from 18 to 19. Can someone confirm this?

Cause that is one mechanic that -really- doesn't blend well with TNO's class switching ability. It actually makes the fighter progression a -penalty- to fighters, which really makes very little sense.

I'm pretty sure that if you are a TNO mage with 18 strength, and you gain a new level, and you put a point into strength during levelup, it also uses the 18/XX progression, which according to that 2nd ed. rule it shouldn't. So there is at least one exception to the rule as it was implemented in game. (I will test this to verify for sure).

I'd like to put it up for discussion. What do people think about this? It's exceedingly inconsistent the way it works now, and doesn't make sense that fighter TNOs receive a pretty huge penalty in an area where they actually should outshine the other classes.

Qwinn

[scient]

I would also note that "Improved Strength" uses the 18/01, 18/51, etc ladder for all classes while "Strength" and "Power of One" only for fighters (other classes go from 18->19). In character sheet on level up it uses 18/30, 18/60 progression for all classes.

There are only three other places besides spells and character sheet where strength is modified: items (tattoos or things like whispering flask), on level up of fighters (strength bonus) and PermaStatChange (boosts to STR from dialogs). All three of these go from 18->19.

Edited by scient, 17 January 2009 - 12:02 AM.

[Qwinn]

I would also note that "Improved Strength" uses the 18/01, 18/51, etc ladder for all classes while "Strength" and "Power of One" only for fighters (other classes go from 18->19).

Bwahaha... did I mention that it was wildly inconsistent?

So, basically, even though a fighter gets 1d8+1 strength points from Power of One, and thieves only get 1d6+1 points from it, TNO is -still- much better off switching to thief before having the spell cast on him, because as a thief the boost will hop directly from 18 to 19 while the fighter wastes 4 or 5 points going up the 18/XX ladder.

*shakes head*

What a mess.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 16 January 2009 - 11:56 PM.

[Shambelle]

We were intending to fix this, and make item boosts and dialogue boosts also use the ladder. Except here's the problem. I -believe- that it is actually 2nd ed. D&D rules that only fighters go up that progression, and that all other classes actually do go directly from 18 to 19. Can someone confirm this?

Yes, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers follow this progression, not the other.

You must also see that 19 is suprahuman, 18/XX is extraordinary but still human (and counts as 18 when you must add a point)...
You can not roll 19 with a generic race (Elf, Human, Dwarf, etc...), a PC with 19 would have been enhanced by magical means.

A similar case was found in Baldur's Gate I with the Tome of Strength.

Concerning the spells:

Strength: Fighters can go up to 18/00, other up to 18. No problem.

Power of One: the description is too ambiguous. There is mentions of Race/Classes restrictions to apply. Are they used?
If so, for a human mage, you couldn't get more than 18 and for a human fighter more than 18/00.

Improved Strength:You must ignore Race/Class restriction so 18/XX has not to be used as I understand it and you can go up to 25.

Edit: I looked in my books...
A Githzerai has a max Strength of 17 (penalty of -1 to Strength), a Tiefling too.
A Rogue Modron has no penalty to Strength.

Edited by Shambelle, 17 January 2009 - 06:23 AM.

[scient]

Strength: Fighters can go up to 18/00, other up to 18.

Correct.

Power of One: the description is too ambiguous. There is mentions of Race/Classes restrictions to apply. Are they used?
If so, for a human mage, you couldn't get more than 18 and for a human fighter more than 18/00.

Per spell description it says max it can give out is 20. For non-fighters it goes ...17, 18, 19, 20 and for fighters 17, 18, 18/xx, 19, 20.

Improved Strength:You must ignore Race/Class restriction so 18/XX has not to be used as I understand it and you can go up to 25.

All of them do check class for die size but nothing beyond that. It is possible to get 18/xx for ALL classes using Improved Strength. If you have a human mage with 14 STR and roll a 6 they will be assigned 18/51 STR.

[Shambelle]

Strength: Fighters can go up to 18/00, other up to 18.

Correct.

I have to add to this that this spell should also take note of the race as per description.
If so, Dak'kon and Annah couldn't go beyond 17...

Power of One: the description is too ambiguous. There is mentions of Race/Classes restrictions to apply. Are they used?
If so, for a human mage, you couldn't get more than 18 and for a human fighter more than 18/00.

Per spell description it says max it can give out is 20. For non-fighters it goes ...17, 18, 19, 20 and for fighters 17, 18, 18/xx, 19, 20.

In this case, the spell has a problem...

This spell increases the target's Strength score by a certain number of points
(or tenths of points above 18) which will still be qualified by race/class.
restrictions.

So, as per the description, the Nameless One (as a human) couldn't go beyond 18 as a Thief or a Mage and beyond 18/00 as a Fighter.
If the rules from the pen & paper are implemented, Dak'kon and Annah as githzerai and tiefling respectively couldn't go beyond 17. If these are not implemented, they should be considered human by the code and so couldn't go beyond 18/00 as multiclassed fighters.
Ignus shouldn't go beyond 18.
Nordom shouldn't go beyond 18/00.
Morte from what I understand shouldn't go beyond 18/00.

Vhailor, I don't know even if he already has a high score.(18/00 if considered as an human)
FFG, I don't know.(18 if considered as an human)

All considered, this spell must work like Strength even if a little better due to the +1 to the die.

Improved Strength:You must ignore Race/Class restriction so 18/XX has not to be used as I understand it and you can go up to 25.

All of them do check class for die size but nothing beyond that. It is possible to get 18/xx for ALL classes using Improved Strength. If you have a human mage with 14 STR and roll a 6 they will be assigned 18/51 STR.

I must have misunderstood the description.
Seeing that the spell is two level beyond the first two and that all the classes are affected in the same way with the progression but with differents die sizes, it seems to work as wanted.

Edited by Shambelle, 17 January 2009 - 09:09 AM.

[Qwinn]

So, as per the description, the Nameless One (as a human) couldn't go beyond 18 as a Thief or a Mage and beyond 18/00 as a Fighter.

Except, clearly, TNO as a special case can violate the racial 18 limits in -any- stat, not just strength.

The question is, what to do in regards to the exceptional strength ladder, that avoids having to do stupid things to get the best effect like "switch to thief, Dak'kon casts Power of One, switch back to fighter and enjoy the better strength".

In my googling around, I'm not finding any 2nd ed. description of "improved strength". I'm presuming it's special to PS:T?

And if anyone happens to have 2nd ed. D&D rulebooks around, does the description of the Strength spell specifically state anything regarding limits? Could we get exact wording, if so?

Qwinn

[Shambelle]

So, as per the description, the Nameless One (as a human) couldn't go beyond 18 as a Thief or a Mage and beyond 18/00 as a Fighter.

Except, clearly, TNO as a special case can violate the racial 18 limits in -any- stat, not just strength.

Yes......and no.
The Nameless One is a special case and he could have 23 to Strength...
But he's still an human.
As per the rules, Strength and Power of One can't give him more than 18 as a Mage and a Thief and 18/00 as a Fighter.
If you use these spells with a Nameless One, your strength of 23 would go down to 18 or 18/00.

Yes, it's not that usefull and this is why Improved Strength was added to the game...

The question is, what to do in regards to the exceptional strength ladder, that avoids having to do stupid things to get the best effect like "switch to thief, Dak'kon casts Power of One, switch back to fighter and enjoy the better strength".

I don't see any problem...
The Nameless One would gain only a strength of 18: not so great for a fighter...

You could always do the reverse but mages are bad to fight hand to hand and thiefs are not so good.
IMO, if I wanted to use some tweaks for my fighter with switch between classes, I would cast Fist of Iron as a mage then switch to fighter to enjoy the +3 to Hit and the +6 to damage.

Edited by Shambelle, 17 January 2009 - 10:16 AM.

[Shambelle]

The original "Strength of One" from TSR 2121 Tome of Magic is quite different from the one in the IE games, so I don't think we should take that one as gospel. (Is it really "Power of One" in Planescape? Then they probably changed it for a reason.)

It's really an original spell.
In the game, you have some vanilla spells then Dak'kon and Ignus have their own versions, often better.
The Nameless One can sometime learn these versions.

Ex:

Strength and Power of One (Dak'kon)
Magic Missile, Reign of Anger (Dak'kon) and Tongues of Flames (Ignus)
Blindness and Vilquar's Eye (Dak'kon)
Etc

Edited by Shambelle, 17 January 2009 - 10:30 AM.

[Qwinn]

Okay, a lot of what you guys are saying indeed makes sense in light of what we're seeing in game. Scient noted that even though Power of One's spell description says that PoO "cannot raise strength above 21", the ceiling was in fact 19 (not inclusive). With everything you guys are saying, it seems likely that it's the description that's wrong, rather than the way it is implemented.

And I am willing to buy the following arguments that have been made as well:

1) The limit should apply to TNO as well, despite his lack of hard stat restrictions.

2) "Yes, it's not that usefull and this is why Improved Strength was added to the game..." Okay, I'll buy that.

It actually seems to be working as intended, and in a way that makes sense to the rules. At least, if everything is working as I -think- it does. Strength and Power of One should be raising STR to a max of 18 for non-fighters, and to 18/00 for fighters. That makes sense. Improved Strength really is improved, and can overcome racial restrictions, but it uses the exceptional table for everyone.

Yep. I like it. Not seeing much need for change, actually, if it's working the way I think it is. Will have to do some testing.

So... now... let's hear arguments on item boosts. Right now they skip right over the 18/XX ladder, even for fighters. Should they, considering this is very inconsistent with everything else we've discussed, and is highly exploitable?

As of right now, I'm leaning toward the opinion that they should be modified to work like Improved Strength does ... they can overcome max strength restrictions, and if they do so, they do climb the 18/XX ladder for all classes. And yes, I'm thinking the same thing for Vhailor's strength boost (which is necessarily fighter-only anyway) and the boosts for fighter specialization.

You guys did a great job clearing up the spells issue for me, so let's see if you can argue for or against what I'm suggesting on these

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 January 2009 - 11:03 AM.

[scient]

Scient noted that even though Power of One's spell description says that PoO "cannot raise strength above 21", the ceiling was in fact 19 (not inclusive). With everything you guys are saying, it seems likely that it's the description that's wrong, rather than the way it is implemented.

Ya, I thought this was a bug but I guess not. Dropping that from my fix list. The 19 str check is base only and it is possible with PoE to get boosts of 19 or 20 if when cast base str is ~18.

It actually seems to be working as intended, and in a way that makes sense to the rules. At least, if everything is working as I -think- it does. Strength and Power of One should be raising STR to a max of 18 for non-fighters, and to 18/00 for fighters. That makes sense. Improved Strength really is improved, and can overcome racial restrictions, but it uses the exceptional table for everyone.

Strength is handled this way but PoE can give boosts past 18/00 to 19 or 20. Say you have a mage with 17 str and PoE is cast on them, if they roll a 3 it would go to 20. For a fighter with 17 str and a roll of 3 would go to 18/51. There are no racial checks, only class but I can add them in if you like.

[Qwinn]

Ah okay, I see what you're saying.

Ugh, that sucks. I'm finding myself in one of those (actually very rare) situations of saying "Screw designer intent, that's just wrong", and allowing 2nd edition rules to override how they implemented. Just in the case of Power of One.

There is clear evidence of the intent that Dak'kon's spells be slightly more powerful than the standard version of the same spells, while lasting only half as long, half the range or some other limitation. Compare Magic Missile to Reign of Anger, for example. But even if we nix the ability to go over 18, that design would still exist... Power of One adds a +1 to the die roll that the base strength spell does not. That is reasonably in line with the difference between Dak'kon's spell versions and the standard fare.

Allowing it to go up to 21 just breaks all kinds of things, though, and totally messes things up. That is explicitly clear in the following:

Say you have a mage with 17 str and PoE is cast on them, if they roll a 3 it would go to 20. For a fighter with 17 str and a roll of 3 would go to 18/51.

That's just wrong. There's no way that's just -not- wrong, designer intent or not.

The fact that the "base 19" check remains even in the PoO spell is a slight boost to the argument. Why would you be able to raise 18 strength to 20 but not be able to raise 19 to 20? That seems inherently messed up as well.

Any objections to this line of reasoning?

And Scient, is the strength spell working as I think it does? Is there a hard cap of 18 for non-fighters and 18/00 for fighters, regardless of what your strength is when the spell is cast?

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 January 2009 - 11:34 AM.

[scient]

And Scient, is the strength spell working as I think it does? Is there a hard cap of 18 for non-fighters and 18/00 for fighters, regardless of what your strength is when the spell is cast?

That is correct. There is an initial check if str is above 18 which skips the spell completely. Fighters (including MC ones) have a separate code path that calculates the 18/## bonus while all other classes do not. Fighters have a cap of 18/00 and non-fighters have a cap of 18. PoE works exactly like this except the cap is 20.

[Qwinn]

Yeah... double checked to be sure. The way I'm suggesting making Power of One would still be in line with the way his spells work compare to their standard counterparts.


Magic Missile: 1d4+1 damage per missile
Reign of Anger: 1d4+2 damage per missile but half the range.

Shield: AC 3 for 25 sec/level
Submerge the Will: AC 2 for 12 sec/level


I think what I'm proposing for Power Of One fits that design quite well. Making the cap the same as Strength, while leaving everything else the same:

Strength: Fighters 1d8, clerics/thieves 1d6, and mages 1d4. Lasts 60 min/level
Power of One: Fighters 1d8+1, clerics/thieves 1d6+1, and mages 1d4+1. Lasts 30 min/level.

Still nicely fits the general theme of his spells without also artificially removing a very important cap that is the only thing keeping the 2nd edition rules making any sort of sense or balance. If a designer did indeed intend to remove that cap without making it work like Improved Strength, that designer really didn't think things through. In this case, I'm gonna have to go with 2nd ed. rules > "designer intent", on the premise that if I could find that designer and actually explain why that cap is so important and point out the consequences, I'm pretty confident the designer would agree.

If the designer had raised the cap for Power of One while making all classes use the 18/XX ladder, like Improved Strength, I wouldn't change it, even though I'd think it was poor design from a balance perspective, on the basis that it would make Dak'kon's version of the spell unreasonably better than plain Strength. But as it stands... removing the cap -without- the 18/XX ladder applying to all classes, well, that's just plain broken. You can't do one without the other, which they seemed to recognize in the implementation of Improved Strength. In fact, for mages and thieves, it makes Power of One way way way better than the much higher level Improved Strength.

(I'll also note that, prior to the class-based THACO change, this was yet ANOTHER reason why fighter would be the class you'd -least- want to be if you were actually engaged in melee, lol. As a mage, way better AC -and- strength spells on you are much much better.)

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 January 2009 - 12:12 PM.

[Qwinn]

Hey, actually, I feel a lot better about this now in terms of conflicting with "designer intent", seeing what I just noticed in the spell description of Power of One.

This spell increases the target's Strength score by a certain number of points (or tenths of points above 18) which will still be qualified by race/class restrictions. The spell cannot bestow a Strength of 21 or greater. The bonus is as follows:

The bolded and underlined parts could be seen to contradict one another, but actually, they really don't. It's just that the way the game was implemented, the bolded part was ignored, whereas in what I propose, both parts are true... it's just that all the relevant race/class restrictions are actually lower than 21, heh. Making it say "The spell cannot bestow a strength of 19 or greater." would be more informative, but the "21" version is still technically accurate.

So I could actually list this bug fix as: "As per the in-game spell description, Power of One will now observe race/class restrictions".

Cool.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 January 2009 - 12:32 PM.

[Qwinn]

Okay, so anyways, my mind's made up on how to deal with the spells, and I think from the spell description that there's reasonable support that we're -not- opposing designer intent, we're actually fulfilling it. Yay.

So. Again, back to the "items that give +strength" issue.

What is the 2nd ed. rules about items that grant strength bonuses? I realize that the more popular ones actually set it to an absolute value ("Gaunlets of Ogre Strength" giving 18/00) rather than a simple + boost... and now we know why, heh. Are there -any- 2nd ed. items that gave a relative rather than absolute boost that we can look at for guidance?

To make things consistent and balanced for the classes, we could probably go one of two ways. 1) Make them work like "Strength", hard caps at 18 for non-fighters and 18/00 for fighters. I don't like this approach. 2) Make them work like "Improved Strength" - caps ignored, but all classes use the 18/XX tree.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 January 2009 - 12:45 PM.

[scient]

I'd vote for second option.

Patch for PoE cap is done, will post in Workroom shortly so you can mess with it.

[Shambelle]

This spell increases the target's Strength score by a certain number of points (or tenths of points above 18) which will still be qualified by race/class restrictions. The spell cannot bestow a Strength of 21 or greater. The bonus is as follows:

The bolded and underlined parts could be seen to contradict one another, but actually, they really don't. It's just that the way the game was implemented, the bolded part was ignored, whereas in what I propose, both parts are true... it's just that all the relevant race/class restrictions are actually lower than 21, heh. Making it say "The spell cannot bestow a strength of 19 or greater." would be more informative, but the "21" version is still technically accurate.

So I could actually list this bug fix as: "As per the in-game spell description, Power of One will now observe race/class restrictions".

Yes, but you have still to deal with this part:

This spell increases the target's Strength score by a certain number of points
(or tenths of points above 18) which will still be qualified by race/class.
restrictions.

So, as per the description, the Nameless One (as a human) couldn't go beyond 18 as a Thief or a Mage and beyond 18/00 as a Fighter.
If the rules from the pen & paper are implemented, Dak'kon and Annah as githzerai and tiefling respectively couldn't go beyond 17. If these are not implemented, they should be considered human by the code and so couldn't go beyond 18/00 as multiclassed fighters.
Ignus shouldn't go beyond 18.
Nordom shouldn't go beyond 18/00.
Morte from what I understand shouldn't go beyond 18/00.

Vhailor, I don't know even if he already has a high score.(18/00 if considered as an human)
FFG, I don't know.(18 if considered as an human)

All considered, this spell must work like Strength even if a little better due to the +1 to the die.

What is the maximum score of Dak'kon and Annah ?
17 as per AD&D rules or 18 if assimilated to humans (except with exotic names)
And in the first case, what are then the maximum Strength scores of Vhailor's and Fall from Grace's races ?