88 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

Actually, I do need to revise what I said in one respect: item boosts WILL skip 18/0 depending on your class... so yes, if you are equipping +STR items, and those items are raising you from below 18 to 18+, then changing class will change your strength. That's the only way though.

Otherwise, the change I'm implementing takes place only -at the time the point of strength is gained-. When you level, if you gain the stat point that puts you at 18 STR as a fighter, it'll put you at 18/30, and you'll keep that 18/30 even if you switch class to mage/thief. If you gain that stat point as a mage or thief, it'll put you at 18, and that's what you'll be at even if you change to fighter.

Make more sense now?

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Yeah I understand what it is now. But now I see it as bringing back that efficient leveling min-maxing behavior that (I think) you tried to reduce. Namely - it's better to get that 18 STR for TNO as a fighter than as something else.

It's a -lot- less pronounced, and remember that to "exploit" this you would have to actually get your fighter level higher than either your mage or thief level to get a stat point when you level as a fighter. If you're playing as a mage or thief and you then devote -that- much of your xp so that your highest class becomes fighter just for the sake of skipping that one point boost, you've earned it. I don't think any min/maxer would spend that much xp just to skip one point in the exceptional strength tree, he'd be way better off continuing to spend xp as mage/thief and gaining another stat point -that- way.

That's a lot different from the min-max behavior necessary for what used to be in game, which is just to wait until you get to Vhailor to skip straight from 18 to 19.

What if a fighter TNO reaches lvl 12 and gets his specialization as fighter. And then he switches to mage. Does this kensai-mage get some penalty to something (THAC0, #attacks) to make him somehow weaker than a pure fighter, or am I just dreaming again?

In the vanilla game, this leveling pattern does, in fact, result in an ungodly overpowered kensai mage with the full THACO and # of attacks of a 12th level fighter while having all the spell capabilities (and massive AC boosting items) of a mage. It is so overpowered that it pretty much makes any other leveling pattern just plain dumb from a tactical game perspective.

So, yes, in the vanilla game, a 12th level fighter changing to a 3rd level mage is WAY WAY WAY better in melee combat than a 12th level fighter, just by virtue of being able to slap on the massive AC boosting bracers and rings only available to mages. And yes, I still sometimes get arguments from people who insist that that was intended.

In Fixpack version 3.0 forward, this is no longer the case. When TNO changes class, his THACO will change to that of the class he has changed to. Number of attacks is still based on fighter level, due to engine limitations there's nothing we could do about that, but it's really nowhere near as big a deal after the THACO change, so there's no plan to change it anyway.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 13 January 2010 - 02:27 PM.

[Karnor]

It's a -lot- less pronounced, and remember that to "exploit" this you would have to actually get your fighter level higher than either your mage or thief level to get a stat point when you level as a fighter.  If you're playing as a mage or thief and you then devote -that- much of your xp so that your highest class becomes fighter just for the sake of skipping that one point boost, you've earned it.  I don't think any min/maxer would spend that much xp just to skip one point in the exceptional strength tree, he'd be way better off continuing to spend xp as mage/thief and gaining another stat point -that- way.

That's a lot different from the min-max behavior necessary for what used to be in game, which is just to wait until you get to Vhailor to skip straight from 18 to 19.

There is one slight exception, which is the strength gain provided by Vhailor.  Unlike other strength bonuses this is available to non-fighters.  So a mage/thief with 18 strength would be better off by switching class to fighter for the conversation (which would increase strength to 18/30), getting +1 from Vhailor (going up to 18/60 strength) and switching back again to presumably retain the 18/60 strength.

Although its not really a massive benefit given that you only get a free +1 strength from it (compared to the free +5 you can currently get).  Plus of course a mage/thief would need to have put enough points to get 18 strength in the first place which isn't likely to be optimal.  And in any case I'm not sure what you could do to fix it.


As a matter of minor interest (and not really relevant any more to this discussion), I did happen to find the old Dragon magazine in which Gary Gygax had suggested a possible half-ogre PC race.  Among various racial adjustments, they would have gained +1 strength, unless they had rolled 18 already in which case they would gain +50 to their exceptional strength roll (with a cap of 00 still).  So their maximum strength would have remained the same as a human, but they would have been much more likely to reach the maximum.

[Qwinn]

Unlike other strength bonuses this is available to non-fighters.

I can't check right now but I'm 99.9% certain this is not the case. I'm pretty sure you *have* to switch to fighter before you can have the conversation that leads to his strength gain.

Although its not really a massive benefit given that you only get a free +1 strength from it (compared to the free +5 you can currently get).

Not sure what you're referring to here. In the vanilla game you can get anywhere between +1 and +3 strength depending on how Lawful you are. I wouldn't be changing that, it would just take you 1 to 3 steps up the progression in the case where that gain takes you through the exceptional strength tree. So if you are due the +3 gain and you are at 18/30, it would take you to 18/99.

Qwinn

[Karnor]

Hmm, my first attempt at a reply got a bit messed up there (and I can't seem to delete/edit it).

Unlike other strength bonuses this is available to non-fighters.

I can't check right now but I'm 99.9% certain this is not the case.  I'm pretty sure you *have* to switch to fighter before you can have the conversation that leads to his strength gain.

Actually I think you are probably right about this.  I rarely play a lawful character so don't often get Vhailor's strength upgrade.

Although its not really a massive benefit given that you only get a free +1 strength from it (compared to the free +5 you can currently get).

Not sure what you're referring to here.  In the vanilla game you can get anywhere between +1 and +3 strength depending on how Lawful you are.  I wouldn't be changing that, it would just take you 1 to 3 steps up the progression in the case where that gain takes you through the exceptional strength tree.  So if you are due the +3 gain and you are at 18/30, it would take you to 18/99.

Qwinn

I was meaning that free +5 strength you currently get (i.e. in an unpatched game) if you go from 18 or below to above 18 using Vhailor.  i.e. +1 strength from Vhailor gets you from 18 to 19, but if you bought that upgrade via level up points it would take 6 levels.  And if you got +3 from Vhailor then you would effectively gain 8 levels worth of strength (i.e. still getting 5 'free' points).