29 replies to this topic

[Lykainon]

After writing my reply to Slyde in the other thread I kinda figured that whether or not I'll get around to making this kit, I clearly should be made and I might as well share some of my ideas on the subject. I probably won't start coding anything just yet since I'm (trying to be) working on Cason but, hey, maybe thinking about something else will increase my inspiration on the subject, who knows?

Anyhow, these are my thoughts on the matter. I know very little about how item-crafting is done in D&D and since so much else is altered in BG, I don't really aim to emulate it but if anyone knows stuff about it that might fit into this, feel free to tell.

First of all, I think it would be most fitting as a bard kit. It might seem kinda strange seeing as it doesn't have a whole lot to do with music but I think basing it on bards offer some other interesting pros. A bard is a pretty lousy fighter with high lore (is it possible to change the amount of lore a kit gains per level? If so, the Crafter should be the motherfrakkin king of identifying) and no thief-skills beside pick-pocketing which seems good. The bard song button would most likely be disabled unless someone comes up with a really cool version of singing that fits a crafter. Spellcasting would either be disabled or heavily specialized (see the paragraph below).

Now... a question for people more skilled at coding then me. Is it possible for a spellcaster to only be able to memorize a very limited number of spells? It seems reasonless but I've never looked into custom kits much so I'm not sure. If so, that might be the best way to go about with the actual casting. A crafter would then be able to find written recipes (my not-quite-fancy name for crafter scrolls), learn them and then craft stuff through spellcasting.

Related to the above is the question on whether or not crafters are magic-users. It's an easy way to explain how the create really fancy stuff in a fantasy-setting but on the other hand it would be nice to separate them from the gazillion kinds of magicians that already exists. Thoughts?

One of the few things I do know about D&D crafting is that you need both physical components and (I think) sacrificing a bit of XP to build stuff. This is something I'd like to keep for a BG crafter. Since buying stuff for everything you're going to craft would be goddamn annoying, it'll probably just drain a bit of gold. The XP sacrifices wouldn't be very heavy most of the time (maybe a couple of hundred XP for a minor item and a few thousand for a somewhat powerful one).

As for what the crafter (most likely a temporary name by the way...) actually would be able to, well, craft... I'm not entirely sure. First of all I'd like to throw in a bit of alchemy. I've always thought that it's a little annoying that the Create Potion HLA or whatever it's called doesn't become available until a lot of the potions you can make doesn't matter much to the gameplay. So potions for healing and other boosts would probably be among the first things a crafter could do.  After that it would be reasonable to have some fighting-related stuff since a nerfed bard isn't much good in a fight. I don't have any concrete ideas yet but stuff similar to Jan's Bruiser Mates  and the pantaloon-bazooka-what's-its-name (i.e. projectile weapons with neat effects) usable only by the crafter could probably be nice.

Another thing that could increase a crafter's usefulness in combat would be the ability to create some sort of pseudo-familiars that can fight his fights for him so to speak. I'm not sure what those would be like (although golems come to mind). If that living-chain-creature mentioned elsewhere is released it would be tempting to have them as an alternative.

Then, of course, there are "normal" magic items like magic weapons, armors, rings, etc. that everyone can use (or sell). While I'm having a hard time coming up with a good in-game reason, these should probably be one-off abilities (or very costly ones) or a party with a crafter in it would raise the Shadow Thieves/Bohdi's Guild money in about three minutes.  

There could also be items that need actual components to be made, similar to those put together by Cromwell and Caspenar. Either a crafter of sufficient level could make the same items as them (free of charge! Yay!) or additional magic items in need of assembling could be put into the game.

The kit should probably have it's own HLA list full of epic items they can make.

Ehm... I'm sure I've thought of more stuff as well but I can't think of it right now. I'll probably add to this idea-list later. Until then... gimmie, gimmie, gimmie feedback.

[Slyde]

Only problem is that you have to give away any other classes or kits to use this one , but for balances sake it makes a lot of sense.

As for restrictions to help balance it out.
Firstly I think dialogue based crafting, rather than spell based would be better, because:
a) Spells need to be memorized each time (which is illogical) but the use of spells could be included into magical items
b) With the dialogue based way, all your choices are laid out in front of you, and if you include time penalties (can you make armor in 25 seconds? ) it will be easier to do it that way (add a fatigue penalty after bigger jobs?)

Or it could be entirely magically done (Role Playing wise I mean) which would make what I just said unnecessary, but I prefer normal skills with added magical enhancement. It makes more sense to me.

Crafter Items
To use more than basic crafting abilities, you could use a talking item to link to the different tiers of items, through dialogue. Each item, more expensive than the last, would link to a higher tier of items. This would restrict early progression.

(From the original post on SP forums- edited)

* It would then check your attributes, it was Strength for brute work like armor and dexterity for jewelry and then combinations for other more complex such as Elven Chain. Levels could also play a part. This level bonus system would allow those focusing on other attributes to still be able to craft items although later on in the game and restrict more powerful items until later

I like this level idea, personally.

And the more epic HLA items (good idea, I think) could have item requirements like Cromwell and Cesp- . . The Imp Butler

EDIT: I also had thought about Golems too, and including them, but that would have to be high level as well, for balances sake.

Edited by Slyde, 12 January 2009 - 06:07 PM.

[Lykainon]

Only problem is that you have to give away any other classes or kits to use this one , but for balances sake it makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, while including crafting for everyone into the game could be kinda cool but it would probably be a whole lot more complicated.

a) Spells need to be memorized each time (which is illogical) but the use of spells could be included into magical items

With a little fluff-text and suspention of disbelief "memorizing" a craft-spell could be considered getting the proper supplies, looking over the recipe in detail, etc.

b) With the dialogue based way, all your choices are laid out in front of you, and if you include time penalties (can you make armor in 25 seconds? ) it will be easier to do it that way (add a fatigue penalty after bigger jobs?)

Choices would be similary visable in front of you in a spellbook (recipe book?) and time penalties could be included in spells as well. I'd say minor items (potions and weak weapons) could be like normal spells with fairly long casting times while more major items could force-rest the party (only avalible when normal rest is of course, we don't wanna make a loop-hole ).

Then again, I'm open to the idea of dialogue-based crafting as well. We'll see what everyone else thinks, I suppose.

Or it could be entirely magically done (Role Playing wise I mean) which would make what I just said unnecessary, but I prefer normal skills with added magical enhancement. It makes more sense to me.

I agree. Aside from making sense it would also give a crafter a more unique flavour compared to mages and such.

To use more than basic crafting abilities, you could use a talking item to link to the different tiers of items, through dialogue. Each item, more expensive than the last, would link to a higher tier of items. This would restrict early progression.

Don't really know what I think about this one. While it has the pros you mention, I think it could turn out a little complicated compared to other systems as well as making a crafter too restricted if not done absolutely right.

I like this level idea, personally.

Yeah, it would make sense if some general crafting-skill (and not just your selection of stuff to craft) improved as you increased in level. I think ability-checks might make things unnecessarly complicated though, not to mention forcing crafters to have several pretty high ability scores to be good and diverse in their crafting.

And the more epic HLA items (good idea, I think) could have item requirements like Cromwell and Cesp- . . The Imp Butler

Great idea, can't believe I didn't think of this one myself. That would give a good in-game reason for not being able to create sixty-two Big Goddamn Sword of Doom + 7 (or a similarly epic item ).

EDIT: I also had thought about Golems too, and including them, but that would have to be high level as well, for balances sake.

Yeah but perhaps a lesser crafter (i.e. lower level) could create a lesser golem and as he gets better, so does the golems he create. This would allow a crafter of fairly low level to have that sort of pseudo-familiar I mentioned earlier without someone having to create new creature animations.

Edited by Lykainon, 12 January 2009 - 06:22 PM.

[Slyde]

Oh, um, whoops the ability checks were from the original idea about anyone being able to craft, not your class mod. So, um, yeah that's why

AS for the memorization.
But if you include the time penalty, couldn't that also include the the preparation as well? And who goes out and collects metal and wood before sleep? Praying and memorization (ask most uni student) I can understand. But that's just my opinion.

As for Aes, if I can get these animations looking right its all yours to include.

You're making the mod so its always your decision, I'm just here to help.

[Thanatos.]

Great Idea! No ideas from me though. Just passing through

[EpitomyofShyness]

I LOVE this idea! Not only would it be fun, but it would perfectly suit a personality for a PC I've had in my head for awhile but no class really suits.

No ideas sorry, but I really hope this gets made. I'd absolutely love it.

[Lykainon]

Thanks for the support, guys.

Another idea, if I get this started and even more if I get it finished a nice addition would be to add a stronghold for crafters (since the Five Flagons doesn't really fit). What would such a stronghold be, you ask? Well... there's a part of the Underused Ideas List that I've been thinking about since I first read it.

A mage/smith guild to justify the abundance of magic items

Not only does whoever came up with it have a very valid point, it would also fit my thoughts about a crafter-stronghold very nicely. In other words, a guild of crafters would be kick-ass in every single way. It could also tie into "related" mods like Slyde's ideas about the chain-familiar (got to get that one somewhere, huh?) and talking items (those aren't very common even in BG2 but these guys know where to look ). Naturally, it would be ran mostly by gnomes (possibly including one of the countless Jansens).

[Slyde]

This guild also could be used to explain those inventions in Waukeen's Promenade. Since when does a guild restrict itself to mundane and small things

[Lykainon]

This guild also could be used to explain those inventions in Waukeen's Promenade. Since when does a guild restrict itself to mundane and small things

Good idea. It would be reasonable if the members make a living by making magical weaponary to anyone with cash but spend their free time on more... extravagant projects.

[Icendoan]

No ideas either, but I am bored and will code it for you (Only the core, really, as I have other mods to do, which I really should, but am not for some reason :X)*

Except having a crafter guild would make the mod amazingly difficult, and complex, for a very small aim.

Also, what I meant with a crafting 'kit' was an item! NOT A PLAYER CLASS! xP I am surprised that people took it like that.

* As in, the basic crafting kit and minor dialogue, with additions for other items and a "charges" idea. I will also add them to stores around the place. PM me if you are interested.

Icen

[Lykainon]

No ideas either, but I am bored and will code it for you

Sweet. Coding probably won't be needed for a while since there is a whole lot of planning to do first but I'll keep you in mind. (Admit it, you just wanna increase you mods-saved rating ).

Except having a crafter guild would make the mod amazingly difficult, and complex, for a very small aim.

Not necessarily. It could be kept fairly minor with a fitting location (hopefully one is available as creating one from scratch would indeed be quite difficult), spawning a few NPCs with fitting dialogue and give crafters some sort of benefit for joining (as well as the ability to do so) such as a place to sleep and maybe some special recipe. It wouldn't have much to offer compared to the vanilla strongholds but it would be better then nothing. Granted, it's still a fair amount of work which is why I see that as a more or less different project do be done after the actual crafter.

Also, what I meant with a crafting 'kit' was an item! NOT A PLAYER CLASS! xP I am surprised that people took it like that.

Yeah, I suppose the word "kit" can have different meanings. Although to be honest I started thinking about it after Slyde's original post regarding crafting, before you mentioned anything on the topic.

Edited by Lykainon, 13 January 2009 - 09:00 AM.

[Icendoan]

The thing is, there are fairly few meaningless areas, particularly in Brynnlaw, I have found.

(And yes, 11 mods is very tempting... )

Icen

[Lykainon]

The thing is, there are fairly few meaningless areas, particularly in Brynnlaw, I have found.

Yeah, you're probably right. The next best thing we could do without having to create an entirely new area would probably be to "copy-paste" an existing area (maybe several areas as different rooms) and insert it into Athkatla as smoothly as possible. Is it possible to turn one of the unused doors in the Promenade into a working door without too much hassle? If so, that could be a nice solution, especially if the inventions there are linked to the crafters guild.

[Icendoan]

Probably, but unless you want to make a bigger deal of this mod other than the simple stuff, like reducing something to components and then rebuilding something from those components.

IE, you could salvage a level one scroll to get something like 5 paper shards. You need 10 for your scroll, and then some ink, which could be bought, or made from something else, and then you "cast" a level 9 spell and it is now a level 9 scroll. It would also exhaust the caster and prevent spells being cast for one game hour, with only a 25% success rate.

(I am already drafting out code to make the replies automagically. Does anyone know if there is a something like foreach in WeiDU?)

Icen

[Lykainon]

That sounds kinda cool but could possibly get needlessly complicated (which is why I suggested a simply money-loss to account for supplies). Interesting idea, though...

[Icendoan]

Yeah, perhaps for a v2

IF ~Global("#!Charges","LOCALS",5)~ BEGIN main5
SAY ~The kit has 5 charges remaining.~
++ ~I wish to use it to salvage something.~ + salvage
++ ~I wish to use it to make something.~ + make
++ ~I wish to put away the kit.~ EXIT
END

IF ~Global("#!Charges","LOCALS",4)~ BEGIN main4
SAY ~The kit has 4 charges remaining.~
++ ~I wish to use it to salvage something.~ + salvage
++ ~I wish to use it to make something.~ + make
++ ~I wish to put away the kit.~ EXIT
END

IF ~Global("#!Charges","LOCALS",3)~ BEGIN main3
SAY ~The kit has 3 charges remaining.~
++ ~I wish to use it to salvage something.~ + salvage
++ ~I wish to use it to make something.~ + make
++ ~I wish to put away the kit.~ EXIT
END

IF ~Global("#!Charges","LOCALS",2)~ BEGIN main2
SAY ~The kit has 2 charges remaining.~
++ ~I wish to use it to salvage something.~ + salvage
++ ~I wish to use it to make something.~ + make
++ ~I wish to put away the kit.~ EXIT
END

IF ~Global("#!Charges","LOCALS",1)~ BEGIN main
SAY ~The kit has 1 charge remaining.~
++ ~I wish to use it to salvage something.~ + salvage
++ ~I wish to use it to make something.~ + make
++ ~I wish to put away the kit.~ EXIT
END

IF ~Global("#!Charges","LOCALS",0)~ BEGIN main1
SAY ~The kit has 0 charges remaining. It is now unusable.~
++ ~I wish to put away the kit.~ EXIT
++ ~I wish to destroy the kit.~ DO ~DestroyItem("#!kit")~ EXIT //May result in bugs
+ ~HasItem("#!ink")
HasItem("#!Thread")
HasItem("#!Oil")~ + ~I wish to restock the kit with supplies."~ DO ~DestroyItem("#!ink")
DestroyItem("#!Thread")
DestroyItem("#!Oil")
SetGlobal("#!Charges","LOCALS",5)~ EXIT
END

IF ~~ THEN BEGIN salvage //I use my prefix, but if you have a better one
SAY ~The kit has supplies for 5 more uses.~
++ ~I wish to put away the kit.~ EXIT
+ ~CheckStatGT(LastTalkedToBy(),DEX,12)
Random(2,1)
HasItem("leat01")~ + ~I wish to gather some hardened leather.~ + leat01.success
+ ~CheckStatGT(LastTalkedToBy(),DEX,12)
Random(2,2)
HasItem("leat01")~ + ~I wish to gather some hardened leather.~ + leat01.fail
END
+ ~CheckStatGT(LastTalkedToBy(),DEX,13)
Random(3,1)
HasItem("leat04")~ + ~I wish to gather some soft leather and metal rivets.~ + leat04.success
+ ~CheckStatGT(LastTalkedToBy(),DEX,13)
OR(2)
Random(3,2)
Random(3,3)
HasItem("leat04")~ + ~I wish to gather some soft leather and metal rivets.~ + leat04.fail
END

IF ~~ THEN BEGIN leat01.success
SAY ~You gather some tough leather from the armour, destroying it for other uses.~
DO ~DestroyItem("Leat01")
CreateItem("#!leat",5,0,0)
IncrementGlobal("#!Charges",LOCAL",-1)~ EXIT
END

IF ~~ THEN  BEGIN leat01.fail
SAY ~You tried to salvage the leather armour, but only succeeded in destroying it beyond all other use.~
DO ~DestroyItem("leat01")
IncrementGlobal("#!Charges","LOCALS",-1)~ EXIT
END

IF ~~ THEN BEGIN leat04.success
SAY ~You gather some soft leather and metal rivets, but render the armour unusable.~
DO ~DestroyItem("leat04")
CreateItem("#!sleat",5,0,0)
CreateItem("#!rivet",12,0,0)
IncrementGlobal("#!Charges","LOCALS",-1)~ EXIT
END

IF ~~ THEN BEGIN leat04.fail
SAY ~You fail to gather anything, rendering the armour unusable.~
DO ~DestroyItem("leat04")
IncrementGlobal("#!Charges","LOCALS",-1)~ EXIT
END

//More item code goes here :)

(Point out any glaring mistakes, because there are probably some!)

Make blocks will come later, if you are interested in the concept.

Icen

Edited by Icendoan, 13 January 2009 - 12:50 PM.

[Lykainon]

Yeah, perhaps for a v2

Maybe, or maybe we can somehow merge the ideas.

(Point out any glaring mistakes, because there are probably some!)

Possibly but I didn't see any. Then again, I was just trying to grasp the big picture of it and you're most likely a better coder then I. Doesn't really matter at this stage anyway.

Make blocks will come later, if you are interested in the concept.

I like the concept but isn't sure on how it should be used. I'm starting to warm up to the idea of dialogue-based crafting. What do you (and everyone else) think about having the "dialogue-object" be a cook book of sorts that, aside from allowing the actual crafting, keeps tab of your available recipes in the description text. It should be possible to add to/change that text as your learn more stuff, right?

The "charges" concept feels a little bit abstract and it would probably annoy players to go around harvest items for components (just imagine if mages actually had to get the spell-components specified in D&D) and I'm still rooting for crafting to drain money and XP. One interesting option (I have no idea on how complicated/doable it would be) is for the crafter to select an ability (most likely some "cast spell X one time per day" or something) and then put it on a non-magical item of his choice (if nothing else it could make non-magical rings somewhat useful).

To keep the things he can make organized I'm thinking of dividing them into different categories (that the crafter gets access to at different stages). There would be "Alchemy" that handles potion-making and possibly other one-charge-only items (how about one-off lock picks that can open most locks and then go vanish, kinda like a "knock" spell in solid form), "Pseudo-familiar making" that, obviously, handles creating allies for a fight, "Arcane Forging" that handles making "standard" magical items (and possible Cromwell-ish composite items as well) and possibly other categories as well. Please note that these are mainly to keep me things organized for me and other people involved and probably won't have any effect in the actual game and the names are fairly temporary.

On another note, what bonuses and such do you people think the crafter should get besides his ability to craft stuff? Of course, it would depend a whole lot on how balanced the crafting itself would make him but I'm open to suggestions.

[Icendoan]

It is only possible to add to the description with a new item...

However, having a "What can I do?" sort of dialogue is more than possible. Also, having recipe sheets littered around, such as the Crom Faeyr one, which you could add to your listings could be interesting as well.

A crafting kit with charges makes (sort of) sense, as if your kit came with it's own mini supplies, like ink, thread and oil for making things, eventually you have to restock them.

XP is more than doable, but having something that should, in concept, gain you a little exp, you can't expect to drain from it! Also, gold somehow disappearing is not really visible for a non-magical kit. (it is quite literally one of those things you get in a box, and you can make stuff with it.)

Increasing the amount of charges is perfectly doable.

Now, spell components isn't workable, as you can't check for items in spell files.

The way I have coded it thus far (which is little), and see the concept, is that unless you are a really high-level mage, you shouldn't be able to understand the magic placed on an item, particularly the stronger ones. It is insane that a mage should be able to take a load of magical components and make another SotM.

Alchemy is a good idea, but partially handled by Thieves, as is scroll making.

Lockpicks are easy enough. Think about a Knock scroll sort of effect, with a new BAM and unable to learn the spell from.

I am generally against having a crafter kit, as in, class, and that it should be open to all.

And, like I said, I am not doing all the coding for this. I can do at least half of the main kit(item) stuff, and most of the tp2 stuff, but making all the items and BAMs is well beyond me, and I have enough stuff to do already.

Icen

[Lykainon]

It is only possible to add to the description with a new item...

Ah, that kind of sucks.

Also, having recipe sheets littered around, such as the Crom Faeyr one, which you could add to your listings could be interesting as well.

That's the plan. I'm not sure if this should be needed for every item or just for some "special" ones though.

XP is more than doable, but having something that should, in concept, gain you a little exp, you can't expect to drain from it! Also, gold somehow disappearing is not really visible for a non-magical kit. (it is quite literally one of those things you get in a box, and you can make stuff with it.)

Hmm... perhaps I should reconsider the XP-drainage. Anyway, the gold-loss would fall under the suspension of disbelief category. Meaning that gold isn't just going poof when you make something, rather it's a simulation of having bought various supplies.

Now, spell components isn't workable, as you can't check for items in spell files.

I'm aware of that, I was just using it as an example of players probably not being overly enthusiastic about going about getting various supplies for their abilities, be they magical or... uhm, crafty.

The way I have coded it thus far (which is little), and see the concept, is that unless you are a really high-level mage, you shouldn't be able to understand the magic placed on an item, particularly the stronger ones. It is insane that a mage should be able to take a load of magical components and make another SotM.

A crafter, whether or not his crafting is magic-based, clearly need to have a fairly good grasp on magic since he can create magical stuff. Now, something like the SotM would probably require something like a level 70 crafter but applying a single effect to an item should be reasonable. Keep in mind that I said non-magical items which means that once you've done it once on an item, you can't add more spells to it.

Alchemy is a good idea, but partially handled by Thieves, as is scroll making.

Exactly. But something that is a pretty exotic (i.e. high level) skill for a thief is among the basics for someone specialized on that area like a crafter. It's comparable to rangers being able to hide in shadows but far from the experts on it that thieves have the potential to be.

Lockpicks are easy enough. Think about a Knock scroll sort of effect, with a new BAM and unable to learn the spell from.

Sounds pretty much like what I had in mind myself.

I am generally against having a crafter kit, as in, class, and that it should be open to all.

One problem with that would be to keep things balanced. If a crafter can't fight well, cast spells, backstab and stuff like that, it's pretty easy (well, relatively) to create a mod that won't unbalance the game but if we apply crafting skills to someone already quite capable in other areas, we'll have to limit ourselves a great deal to create a balanced mod since enemy-NPCs would benefit from our cool ideas.

[Icendoan]

The idea that balance is important is good, but could be unnecessary. It really depends what items are being made. If you had really high-end crafting, sure, extreme balancing would be in place, but if you have relatively minor changes, such as being able to turn studded leather into splint, or two plate mails into one full plate and so on, or make a studded leather cloak, would require fairly little balancing.

Also, limiting the main character's gameplay is A Bad Thing, in my opinion. Looking on the large scale, of the whole game, what is the point of seriously killing a lot of the versatility of your CHARNAME so that they can make a few items now and again?

Having some items being made better by others, perhaps have a higher random chance for some classes and basing some RP items on this, IE, Wizards, NOT SORCERERS, could craft minor magical items, perhaps some more complex ones, while thieves could make lockpicks and things which would improve mobility and stealth, rangers could create some forest stealth type items and bards could make more inspiring ballads and songs, which would give a temporary bard song. (By simulating the effects and disabling the button).

Icen