9 replies to this topic

[drake]

Hi,

I installed the mod a few weeks ago, and have now finished SoA. It's a good mod, but there are some weaknesses.

Balance: Attributes are a bit on the high side, for an NPC, but with Str and Con lower than for most fighter type NPCs it's nothing important. The Dex value is rather surprising since the main character is a godchild as well and doesn't have any super attributes, but since it only gives two points AC more than Dex 18 it has little influence on the game balance, and the sum of all attributes is lower than Sarevok's.

The starting weapons are probably the best of any NPC, but only overpowered for the dungeon. Once in the city there are several +3 weapons and many +2 easily available, and since Chloe needs to spend proficiency points on two weapons and two weapon fighting (and a weapon to use against Clay Golems and the like), it balances very quickly.

The weapon power up in Spellhold is a bit over the top (since the only +4 or +5 weapons available are two handed weapons), especially since the stun chance of her main weapon is twice that of Celestial Fury. Nor is the point in time well chosen for story purpose. And with more powerful scimitars available, how many people still have her use Lathander's Flame at this point?
I'd recommend to shift the upgrade of the short sword a bit earlier. After freeing Aran's daughter perhaps - or maybe during the fight - simple animation of a sunray and a false dawn spell and a comment how the blade feels more powerful would do. And the negative plane protection is probably needed most during the following fights. And it makes sense that Lathander wouldn't grand his favor if you sided with the Vampires; at least not until you did something to make up for that (sacrifice Bhodi's heart, for example).
The upgrade of Akadi's Wrath should be later; it's a very powerful weapon. I can't decide if it would be better when you enter the Underdark or leave it. When you leave the Underdark you can get Crom Faeyr, which is probably about as powerful as Rage of Akadi, so it would work well from that perspective, and it could be portrayed as a reward for dealing with the drow - then again as DM I'm always opposed to the gods giving magical items away freely. Akadi could also make some reference to not giving the elves too hard a time (and can I just mention that I was disappointed at how easily Chloe accepted the mess the elves created and dumped on the party to clean up!).
Yes, I know the game is almost over by then, but you gain most of the powerful weapons that late in game, so I don't think that's a problem. Wrath of Akadi is powerful enough to last for most of the game.

Gameplay:
I liked how Chloe commented on many issues, but I must say even though she's better than the rest of the NPC, she still hasn't enough comments (especially about meaningful decisions). That you don't really have many decisions to make is a fault of the game, but I'd like some input in what the NPC want to do. It often feels like walking around with a group of slaves that do whatever I want.
I'd especially like the option to ask Chloe which of the available quests we have heard about in chapter 2 should be done next. Or how to deal with things in the drow city (kill Qilue or not? kill Solaufain or not? How to react to Jarlaxe?). Even which fishman to kill (king, prince, both) or if we should kill the shadow dragon or leave it be. It'd be lots of work, but it'd make the character fell more real.
Anyway, enough dreaming about stuff that would be hard if not impossible to code, Chloe worked well enough in the first half of the game, but she was very silent once I set out to Spellhold. A few banters with Imoen and a few romance talks, but that was it. IIRC all of them played out before I reached the Underdark. There should be a few more dialogs for the romance at least (I'll have to see how she romances Imoen in the next game). And that she ignored Akadi's visit after she was gone was strange. Meeting a god should leave a lasting impression or at least cause a few comments. And that the other characters (especially Paladin and clerics) didn't have any comments to either the goddess appearance or Chloe's reaction to it.

The banters I've seen so far are well thought out and very enjoyable, though more (especially about specific experiences during the game - like the visit to the Underdark or about the players stronghold) would be a nice thing. As I said, Chloe had little to say in the second half of the game.

I'm also surprised at the weapons you chose; scimitar and short sword, when Akadi's favored weapon is a heavy flail and Lathander's a mace. Not a bad decision, but still surprising.

Overall I've enjoyed the game a lot more with Chloe than before, so great work.

[sdrake]

Thanks for your excellent and informative review. Maybe someday over the rainbow Chloe can be expanded into having more banters, TOB content, etc. assuming the mod author left permission of course...

[drake]

Thanks for your excellent and informative review. Maybe someday over the rainbow Chloe can be expanded into having more banters, TOB content, etc. assuming the mod author left permission of course...

Well, I really do hope that there will be some more work on the mod. I'd volunteer for some work, but I haven't done more than adding a few items to a map so far.

I've read my post again, and wondered about how Chloe could be better balanced in the early part of the game. It's fairly easy to get a few +3 weapons quickly (Blade of Roses and Stonefire Axe come to mind; Flail of Ages and several others can be gained soon after), but at the start it is overpowered. At the same time the dungeon is underpowered, since it was designed as an introduction for new gamers.

To balance things out I came up with the following concept:
Irenicus is very powerful - almost demigod level at the beginning. I like to believe that he retained some powers from his last attempt to become a god, and has to surrender them for the next (which makes him far weaker when you meet him at the tree of life). So he can easily have other powers.
At the same time what is the dungeon supposed to be? Sewers? They wouldn't have just one exit, you know.
So if instead of sewers, Irenicus has a normal house there, and expanded it magically to greater size, things would make a bit more sense. Now if you add some kind of suppressing field (he apparently has not paid to use magic) and time dilation (would explain why the battle is still going strong after you took a day or more to get out), this could weaken magical weapons not adapted to the environment. (Giving the background on this could be done in two dialogs: When meeting Chloe she complains about how her blades are weaker than they should be, and before you leave Imoen or Jaheira talk about how unnatural things feel and how it just becomes obvious as they're leaving the area of effect)
Anyway, the net effect would be that Chloe's weapons would be suppressed to simple +1 blades each. After leaving the dungeon they regain some of their strength and become +2 blades, but it takes ~48 hours until they return to full power. Unless the player simply rests six times, they should have access to +3 weapons by then (and there's no way to balance against cheating). I'd add one or two more so suppressed weapons (+2 with a little extra) to make it less Chloe centric.

And while we're at it, I think adding a number of extra enemies (who could wield the new weapons), maybe including a cleric or mage, could make the dungeon more interesting for experienced players. As base of Irenicus it should have good defenses (if only to attrition the Shadow Thieves); so more enemies, and in general harder ones - maybe even an Iron Golem (with extra magic resistance - the idea is to have an invulnerable enemy) somewhere you need to pass through. Forcing the player to simply run by an enemy because they can't hurt it would fit the supposed mood of the dungeon better. An optional addition to make the dungeon very deadly would be a good incentive for people who use the Dungeon-be-gone mod to give this mod a try.

It may not be something directly related to Chloe, but I can't think of a decent way to introduce it without her.  And the party would need the extra fighter to get through the dungeon alive.

[sdrake]

The mod author left in 2006 so any future work on Chloe will have to come from somewhere else, assuming that permission is/was granted.

I agree that Chloe's weapons are overpowered for the Irenicus dungeon. She can essentially carve through the whole thing herself. Excellent explanation and background on why Chloe's weapons would be weakend just for the dungeon and the gradually regain their power after the party leaves the dungeon.

As for improving the Irenicus dunegon, "Improved Illyich" and "Always Toughest Random Spawns in Dungeons" from Tactics make it a nightmare for beginning/intermediate players. The Darkest Day adds some extra creatures to the dungeon (bugbears, ettins, ogres, some extra otughys) that make things slightly more interesting than the vanilla game. The Iron Golem is a great idea, Irenicus could have several other magical experiments (like the cloned elf) that the party has to fight, or maybe he has hired/enslaved various elite mercenaries who protect his possessions/interests.
Anyway, enough going offtopic.

[drake]

The mod author left in 2006 so any future work on Chloe will have to come from somewhere else, assuming that permission is/was granted.

I agree that Chloe's weapons are overpowered for the Irenicus dungeon. She can essentially carve through the whole thing herself. Excellent explanation and background on why Chloe's weapons would be weakend just for the dungeon and the gradually regain their power after the party leaves the dungeon.

As for improving the Irenicus dunegon, "Improved Illyich" and "Always Toughest Random Spawns in Dungeons" from Tactics make it a nightmare for beginning/intermediate players. The Darkest Day adds some extra creatures to the dungeon (bugbears, ettins, ogres, some extra otughys) that make things slightly more interesting than the vanilla game. The Iron Golem is a great idea, Irenicus could have several other magical experiments (like the cloned elf) that the party has to fight, or maybe he has hired/enslaved various elite mercenaries who protect his possessions/interests.
Anyway, enough going offtopic.

Well, I finally installed Improved Illyich and won; and what a fight that was. Notably, Chloe's weapons aren't overpowered at all, or at least not a lot. With Improved Illyich you get a better armor, three +2 and a +3 weapon, a cloak +1, and maybe more. Not to mention that it's hard to complete the dungeon without Immy summoning another +3 weapon. Chloe's weapons are far less exceptional in these circumstances. Still the upper edge, but not unreasonably so anymore. Besides, you are very likely to have finished most/all of the dungeon before you reach her, so balance in the dungeon is no longer an issue. Not to mention that she needs any advantage she can get to justify how she got past the guardians in the first place!
That said and as enjoyable as the challenge was, I have to note that it's not in the spirit of the game; Irenicus wants the player to escape (not experiences enough to be of use? At least that's the only thing that makes sense.), so harassing them that badly doesn't make sense (he does underestimate the player everywhere else). While I think some additional challenges would be a good thing, I think more powerful static defenders would fit better.

I'm not certain this is off topic, but thanks for the rec anyway.

[sdrake]

Did you also install "Always Toughest Random Spawns in Dungeons"? This replaces the puny goblins with Duergar Proletariats who will chop up your best fighter pretty quickly as well as Duergar Wizards who have tons of stoneskins and will web/Melf's acid arrow/confuse/Melf's Minute Meteor your party into oblivion. You only get 1 rest and then any rests after that are interrupted by these spawns. This might be a challenging upgrade that you are looking for without the over the top Improved Illyich. Chloe's weapons, indeed, go from being way overpowered to being like a modest upgrade.
Regarding Chloe getting past the guardians, unless Akad herself helped Chloe past Improved Illyich I don't see how she could solo that.

[drake]

I didn't install the Thoughest Spawn part, since I used several other mods and one of them included a somewhat more reasonable increase in difficulty. The Proletariats/wizards are part of the Illyich component, though. And they make resting hell in the beginning. But once you get some decent equipment in the dungeon, they become manageable. I even have a mod installed that has wizards appear with Stoneskin and the like active. Still, I usually manage to get out of the fights healthier than going in (after casting the healing spells I recovered); and I even get additional healing potions, most of the time. Until you get Yoshimo and gain a level, you'll probably need to rest at a door and separate the two enemies and defeat them in detail. Tactics isn't about realistic fights but about using the engine the best way possible. Locking some enemies out be closing a door is part of that (and a recommended strategy in the readme files).

Illyich was actually easier to deal with that these spawns; it's the combination of both that makes the level so hard.

I was thinking more about a modest increase in difficulty; some more enemies of about the same power level as those already present. An Iron Golem in a place where you must go through, but where you can simply run past it, and it can't follow, and maybe a guard on the level of one of those Proletariats  guarding the imprisoned shapeshifter. Since I believe that Irenicus underestimates the main character a lot, I don't think he'd have roving patrols that could disrupt rest. Just my take though.

As for Chloe getting through, it might explain why they're on guard at the time; she managed to take them by surprise and they're now expecting more trouble. She still had two Shadow Thieves with her (they get killed by the golem in the first cut scene), so adding a few corpses along the way would explain that - so they could work together. But as I said, I don't think Irenicus would have something that dangerous in the dungeon he wants his prisoners to escape from - he can't plan for save/reloading your way through, after all. That's the balancing act Irenicus must make; weak enough to allow the Bhaalspawns to escape, but well enough guarded to bleed the Shadow Thieves.

I know it's not the duty of a NPC mod to make the story more believable, but since Chloe is part of the Shadow Thief attack force and has good contacts among them, this mod probably is the best way to introduce the necessary concepts (nerving of magical items on entering the complex, time distortion, ...).  That's why I thought I'd bring it up here. Maybe inspire the mod owner to get back to work, or something.

[robertmarkbram]

A fantastic and well thought out review Drake. Thanks for that.

This is my fifth time starting Baldur's Gate 2. Each other time I started it, I either got bogged down in work or lost interest (like when I installed the mods that made everything way too hard.. my own fault!).

Of all the mods I have used, Chloe is far and away the most outstanding. I haven't made it to ToB yet, and I am sad to see there will be no additional ToB component. I reckon Choe will stay though.

Biggest crack up with Chloe: explaining "being gay" to Minsc. "Boo is trying to explain it to me.. but I still don't understand!"

Wishing Lucy would say Hi again..

Rob

[Giuseppe]

Biggest crack up with Chloe: explaining "being gay" to Minsc. "Boo is trying to explain it to me.. but I still don't understand!"

Heh. I like that banter too.

It is a shame when a mod is left incompleted . With Lucy's permission, could someone pick this character and release TOB part?