364 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

*pokes scient to look at post #58*

Looks like this one's yours, bud. That fix shouldn't be changing the way other NPC's gain HP, just TNO.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Might want to install the Subtitled Cutscenes component again too.

If you want, send me the VAR.VAR again after you've done so, and I'll make sure everything's okay.

Qwinn

[Shambelle]

Ah so that's the symbol for Limbo. There is no reference in the code for a fourth spell key. I could inject a function exactly like the existing spell keys where it checks if current area matches one of the planes AR####. Then it does an internal call to HasItem() to see if the PC casting the spell has the spell key on them. The spell key has to be in the inventory of the caster (doesn't matter where) to have any effect. Like Dak's spells will still be messed up if you have the SK on TNO. On Qwinn's side of things, all he would have to do is create a new ITM file and somehow tie it into the game. I'm not sure where this would fall. It's not fixpack material since it's adding new content to correct an issue with Planescape universe that wasn't implemented. UB component? Maybe this would help bring some balance to the zone?

Interesting...
I would see the addition of the Spellkey as a tweak (they are not in the game perhaps because the devellopers found they don't fit the game) or an UB.

The tricky part isn't adding in a check for area/item, that's easy. What I need to know is how Limbo affects spells. Do you know what effects each plane should have on certain types or specific spells? This would be useful in my analysis of different branches of code. I'll try out casting some healing spells in Neg Plane and see what happens.

I can help you here.

The descriptions from this site for the effects of the outer planes on mage spells seems correct.
Else, you would have to look at the Planescape Setting Box Set, Planes of Law, Planes of Chaos, Planes of Conflict and some other.

Outlands: Nothing can be conjured from the inner planes, and divinations and alterations involving the inner planes must be keyed. As one approaches the central spire, magic spells tend to fail.

Limbo: All magician spells require an intelligence check. If passed, the spell succeeds. If failed, the spell fails, and a wild surge is generated on a roll of "20" on d20 on stable terrain, and always if in the soup. Keys might help prevent this. Alterations are very likely to produce oddities as cited above. Divinations require a check vs. prime requisite or the results are totally confusing. Again, keys might help make divinations clearer. Illusions have a 10% chance of becoming fully, permanently real. Spell keys might prevent this. Wild magic always produces a surge. Roll twice for level variation and use the more extreme result. Elemental spells come off normally, and have duration and area doubled; if instantaneous, they last 1d6 rounds; if single-target, they have an area 1d12 feet across.

Carceri: Magic used for selfish purposes, that benefits the caster and makes the rest of the world a worse place, is at maximum effectiveness. Magic cast for an altruistic purpose always requires a spell key. Alterations produce the greatest possible evil, or at least horrid side-effects. Expect to see screaming faces in things produced by magic. Summoned creatures are free-willed, and must be bribed. All divinations require the sacrifice of a comrade, and the answer appears in the spreading blood pool. Healing spells are at half-effect. Raised undead are free-willed and usually attack their creator. Harmful necromancy gets +1/die. Elemental effects may be double to nil, depending on the environment.

Baator: Conjurations and summonings require elaborate bindings, which must be perfectly performed, or the summoned creature need not obey, though it cannot leave. Divinations are always presented as bad news. Necromancy that heals requires a check vs. intelligence or it fails, while necromancy that does harm is performed as if the caster were one level higher. Wild mages are reduced in level by one per layer, no surge is possible, and spells above fourth level simply fail. Elemental magic is stronger or weaker depending on the local climate.

For the Negative Energy Plane, the boxed set tells that all healing spells do the minimum, all the damaging spells do the maximum, all matter created by magical means crumble to nothingness in a few rounds and conjurations and summoning can call only for the negative quasi-elemental planes.


I may add that these effects and other I've not written could explain why there is no spell for summoning creatures from other planes.(really too complexe to handle)
Of course, they simplified the whole system.
Oh, and from what I see, "Blood Bridge" would be blocked by Carceri ("Magic cast for an altruistic purpose always requires a spell key"), "Enoll Eva's Duplication" too.

A list of all the spells affected could be interesting.

Edited by Shambelle, 16 January 2009 - 01:55 PM.

[scient]

Adding an INT check for Limbo spell key would be easy. I'll have to look into it more but cheers for info. Once I finish up a few engine fixes I'm working on I'll get back to doing more analysis on spell key code.

Edited by scient, 16 January 2009 - 02:15 PM.

[Forb.Jok]

When I was killing constructs in Rubikon (the modron maze) on Hard difficulty, one of them dropped a "Nordom's Ocular", which is identical to Nordom's default lens.
Judging by its title and description (which both explicitly refer to Nordom), I would guess that this item is intended to be unique, and that the only one in the game should be the one Nordom has initially.

This is not strictly speaking a bug, but rather an oddity, and has no serious impact on gameplay.
I have no idea if it is specific to the fixpack, or if it was intentional - though I would guess it was not.
Just thought it might be worth mentioning.

[Qwinn]

Odross,

Um, are you installing Cilantro's Restoration Pack as well, or something?

Because I just realized that the VAR.VAR you've sent me is the VAR.VAR from his restoration pack.

They are not compatible.

ForbJock:

Yeah. There's a few items I would consider to be unique that aren't so. In fact, far as I can tell, no item that can possibly drop as a random drop is "unique", even though there is a flag in the item file telling them to be so. There's several items which I consider more problematic than Nordom's Ocular in that regard, like the various very rare drops in Undersigil.

They are that way in the original game, nothing I did makes them so, there is just no simple "fix" nor can I be sure that it wasn't intended to work that way (though I do lean toward thinking it probably wasn't).

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 16 January 2009 - 03:36 PM.

[Qwinn]

Never mind about there being a field in the item file designating items as unique... I was wrong. The flag I thought was "unique" actually does something else. Too bad, that was the thin reed I was hanging my hopes on that duplicates of what should be unique items wasn't intended.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 16 January 2009 - 03:44 PM.

[Qwinn]

RE: The Limbo Spell Key:

I dunno, I don't think it merits putting into the game. I can think of various logical reasons why it might've been deliberately left out... such as the energies of Limbo vs. the Modron Maze itself canceling each other out. Besides, it's totally new content... I couldn't consider it a restoration, unlike the 3 other spell keys.

Qwinn

[scient]

What i do is:
start new game, teleport to dakkon with book, get him to join, then do 10x10000xp seperatly, leveling up one class at a time, result: 55hp
then loaded and added 100000xp and leveled in one go, i got 51hp.
dakkon starts as 3/3 and and with 100000(3 party members) gets to 5/5, the difference is 4hp, 1/level. His con is 16, no half points. The con bonus applies correctly(1/lvl).

There is a random component on level up. Could that explain why it's different? The section of code you commented out checks to see if the return value for hp on level up is atleast 1. This code is called only if hp is suppose to be added. It never gets used in my testing and there as a "safety" check because I removed a similar one in different area of code. Say with TNO and classes lower than max never get this far. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying. I find AD&D hp progression confusing.

This is my understanding as what should happen. Say you have fighter with 17 CON.
From levels 1-9: One 10 sided die rolled twice with min of 1 and max of 10 (HPWAR.2da). Then 2 * 3 = +6 from CON (HPCONBON.2da).
From levels 10+: Fixed +3 hp per level up, no CON bonus.

Single classes seem fairly straight forward. Now for multi-classes, lets use Dak.

So lvl 3 fighter/mage with 16 CON. He'll always level up his fighter class first since it has lower requirements. If he gets enough exp to level up to 5/5, he should only get hp for leveling up fighter...correct? So it should be one 10 sided die rolled twice with min of 1 and max of 10 (HPWAR.2da). Then 2 * 2 = +4 from CON (HPCONBON.2da). So that would range hp gain from 6 to 24. Same thing with cut off at level 10 applies.

So issues that still exist is that con bonuses are still calculated after level 10. Also, with TNO if you go from lvl 5 to lvl 10 in one class, but have say another inactive class at 8, TNO will gain hp from 5-10 rather than 8-10. Neither of these should affect Dak. If someone has a good idea of how it all works I'd appreciate an outline.

Edited by scient, 16 January 2009 - 04:44 PM.

[Qwinn]

Scient,

f he gets enough exp to level up to 5/5, he should only get hp for leveling up fighter...correct?

Incorrect.

In a multi-class, Dak would gain hit points whenever he reaches a new level in -either- his fighter or mage class, each one divided by 2. It does not matter if one class reaches a level before another - that's specific to TNO.

Let's assume the maximum hp tweak is installed, to make things easier.

Assuming Dak'kon has a 16 CON (which is a +2 bonus), when Dak'kon reaches 4th level fighter, he gains 6 hp. 10 (hit die) / 2 = 5, +2 (CON) / 2 = 1. Total of 6.

Then, when he reaches 4th level mage, he gains 3 hp. 4 (hit die) / 2 = 2, +2 (CON) / 2 = 1. Total of 3

Then when he reaches 5th level fighter, another 6.

Then when 5th level mage, another 3.

It doesn't matter what order he gains these in, or if he gets a bunch at the same time. Multi-class characters -always- gets these hit point bonuses when they level, there is no "only if it's a level he never reached before" logic like there is with TNO, that particular logic is unique to TNO.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 16 January 2009 - 04:52 PM.

[scient]

Ok, it makes sense now. Am I correct about lvl 10+ only gaining the amount in "modifier" value w/o CON bonuses? That was an issue you wanted me to fix correct?

Edited by scient, 17 January 2009 - 10:32 AM.

[Tyr Vedra]

Hey there Qwinn, at least these'll be easy to fix!

[codebox]
Hive / Mortuary Area, Hive Tout -

Nameless: "Where' the mausoleum?"
^
(Missing 's')

-

Ragpicker Square, Sharegrave Hut, Sharegrave -

Nameless: "Three hundred copper coins."

Sharegrave: [..."No"...]

Nameless: "Wait! One hundred coppers coins, then."
^
(Extra 's')

-

Hive / Smoldering Corpse Area, Damsel in Distress -

Nameless: "Who?"

Damsel: [...]

Nameless: "I'll help you, take me to her.
^
(Missing end quote)

[/codebox]
More to follow no doubt, if I ever get out of the Smoldering Corpse Bar!

[Shambelle]

RE: The Limbo Spell Key:

I dunno, I don't think it merits putting into the game. I can think of various logical reasons why it might've been deliberately left out... such as the energies of Limbo vs. the Modron Maze itself canceling each other out.

"energies of Limbo vs. the Modron Maze itself canceling each other out", I don't think so...
The Modron Maze is really on the verge to collapse due to the chaotic forces of Limbo...
The Maze looks like Mechanus but is really a piece of Chaos Matter shapped to look like something orderly: it's looking like Mechanus but it's really Limbo.
Now that the experiment has gone awry (due to the effects of Limbo upon its inhabitants and the death of the Director), the Maze is beginning to return to Limbo...(the Nordom's Room is a good example).

I also can think of various logical reasons why it might've been deliberately left out (as "the Player don't have to bother with finding a spellkey") but only the developpers know the truth.
It could be also the reason why the other working spellkeys were not added in the final game, their absence being not so disrupting...

Edited by Shambelle, 17 January 2009 - 03:58 AM.

[Qwinn]

Tyr,

Thanks for those typo corrections! Made the fixes to my master dialogue, so they'll definitely be fixed in the next version. Keep 'em coming!

Odross:

Okay. Sorry you had so much trouble, and glad you were able to finish. I honestly have no idea how that could've happened to you. I do keep backups of each version I release, and VAR.VAR is not to be found in either my initial 3.0 releases or my current ones. Nor can my code be somehow emulating the Restoration Pack's variable adds... my code makes sure to put new variables in in alphabetic order, whereas the Restoration Pack (and the VAR.VAR you sent me) have them all tacked on to the end of the GLOBAL section regardless of alphabetic order.

The only thing I can imagine is that you played this game a long time ago with the older non-WeiDU packs, and didn't do a full uninstall/reinstall this time around, so that stuff stayed behind? *shrug* It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Unless/until someone else brings up the same issue, I'm gonna presume this was either an old installation causing problems or an Act of God.

Shambelle, on the Limbo Key thing:

Eh. I can see what you're saying. But as "modron's advocate" for a second, let me suggest this: While you're right that the maze is made of chaos matter, it's still chaos matter that's been influenced/constructed by a whole crapload of -modrons-, the most lawful, disciplined creatures in the universe. And yes, it is clear in game that the chaos of Limbo is beginning to affect all the modrons in the maze, not just Nodrom, and eventually the maze would collapse. I could see the reinstatement of the Limbo spell disruption to be the first step of that collapse.

That's my IC reasoning. OOC, I consider it entirely new content, or at least way way below my threshold of sufficient in game material to justify inclusion in UB. Nor is it a fix... seeing as we all seem to agree that even if my IC reason isn't the reason, there are plenty of plausible reasons why the developers left it out. Barring any positive evidence to make us think it's actually broken/unfinished... yeah, it's entirely new content. Not that totally new content is out of the question... but if I'm going to go there, I've got a whole slew of things I'd prioritize over that. Just sayin'. Feel free to continue to discuss, but I've personally little interest in implementing that, barring any newly discovered positive evidence of designer intent.

Qwinn

[scient]

I'm not sure if BG1 has any items that give bonus to luck but there is a bug in IE part of PST code that sets any luck item bonus to zero. So in the vanilla game any items that say they give a luck bonus really don't. Epic fail.

I tracked down luck modifier code and found it was missing a conditional check. So in next release, luck items will actually give their luck bonuses.

I think this was missed mainly because there is no display of luck attribute in profile window. So next release of tweak pack UI will include display of luck plus BG2 style THAC0 like in screenshot below.