43 replies to this topic

[Kaeloree]

Can it be an optional component in the Fixpack? Disregarding the argument as to whether it is a fix or not (I'm on the fence on that one), I do think that it's such a major change that it shouldn't be "forced" upon the player. I imagine a fair amount of people would prefer to play the game without major gameplay changes, and some want it how it was intended to be--so the best way I can think of doing that is by having it in the Fixpack as a separate component.

Just my 2c. You guys are doing a brilliant job, and whenever I, you know, actually get the chance to play again, you can bet your mama I'll be playing with this installed.

[Daulmakan]

And what about above level 9? Would it still be a hit dice roll or you'd change it to the (+1/+2/+3) progression?

[Qwinn]

And what about above level 9? Would it still be a hit dice roll or you'd change it to the (+1/+2/+3) progression?

The cutoff of full hit dice for all classes in PS:T is actually at level 10, not level 9. That detail aside, TNO would gain 3 hit points every level above 10. (IOW, he would gain HP as a fighter does regardless of his class at every new level of his career)

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Kael'oree, see post # 18 on how I'm planning on dealing with your concern.

Although currently I'm thinking that maybe the Tweak should have an alternate name. It doesn't seem to be a powergamer objection as much as a purist objection. So perhaps the proper name is: The "Fie! A pox on thee! Those first 500 fixes were okay, but if the designers didn't catch this then it must've been intended, even though they resolve a discrepancy between the manual and game, make the handling of the various classes consistent, and solve an overwhelming number of class balance issues. Too far, too far I say! A pox on thee, though unpure knave!" Tweak.

:grin: Yes, I know, I can be a smartass sometimes.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 12:26 PM.

[Daulmakan]

Just to clarify:

* The hit point proposed fix will make TNO gain 1d10 per level (up to level 9 o 10?) and then 3 hit points per level, regardless of what class he levels up in both cases.

* The THAC0 component will enforce TNO's THAC0 to that corresponding to his current class, regardless of which one is better.

Did I get those right?

Edited by Daulmakan, 14 December 2008 - 02:06 PM.

[Qwinn]

That is correct.

Some additional clarifications on the HP matter:

* The hit point proposed fix will make TNO gain 1d10 per level (up to level 9 o 10?) and then 3 hit points per level, regardless of what class he levels up in both cases.

1) Since you asked, it's 1d10 up to and including level 10, 3hp thereafter. That's no change on my part, all 3 classes get full hit dice up to and including level 10 in the vanilla game.

2) This still follows the "you only gain full hit dice when you reach a level you hadn't reached in any other class" rule. That's not changing, except that if possible we'll be making "repeated" class gains give -no- hit point boost, versus the 1hp you get now, as the manual states is supposed to be the case.


Not much to add on the THACO thing. It's pretty simple - when you switch to a level 7 mage, your base THACO will be 18, regardless of what your THACO is in your other classes.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 02:12 PM.

[Qwinn]

Woohoo! Got a fast reply from Chris Avellone! And one of the issues is indeed put to bed. Here's how I described the two issues in the mail I sent him.

Qwinn to Chris Avellone:

1) The game manual says that TNO is supposed to gain 1-10 hit points per level regardless of which class he's gained a new level in. It doesn't work this way - if TNO gains his new level as a mage, he only gets 1-4 hit points. I'm thinking this is a bug, and it should work the way the manual says.

2) THACO... TNO's To Hit number is always the best THACO out of all 3 of his classes. I'm thinking it shouldn't be that way either - that when he switches to a mage, he should have the fighting capabilities and THACO of a mage. Same with thief.

I think fixing these things would be a very good change to the game. No longer would you -always- play fighter for the first 9-13 levels regardless of what class you really prefer so that you can have decent hit points, not to mention getting to keep a solid THACO regardless of what class you're playing. Fighters don't get to keep the spells or thief abilities of the other classes, so why should mages and thieves get to keep the best attribute of a fighter? It would mean playing each class the way it's meant to be played, rather than always doing fighter, fighter-mage and fighter-thief.

Here's the relevant part of his reply to my question about it. Chris Avellone to Qwinn:

I'd agree with you on #1, and #2 makes sense from a balance standpoint, although aesthetically it feels odd to me - I could go either way, however, so I don't have a firm judgment on it, so I'd leave it up to you (it's odd that suddenly when you switch a class, you suddenly forget how to fight).

Okay, so, on the Consistent HP issue, we've got A) class balance issues that it would resolve, B) the explicitly stated designer's intent in the manual, and C) the unqualified agreement from Chris Avellone, lead designer of PS:T from atop his perch on Mount Olympus, that it is a bug. If that isn't sufficient grounds for someone to acknowledge that it is indeed supposed to work this exact way, well, erm, they can KMA. Sorry. As far as I'm concerned, the subject of the Consistent HP issue is closed. It was a -bug-, and this is a -FIX-. Period.

As for the THACO issue, I do understand what he's saying. Here was my reply to him, which I'm not expecting a reply to as he did leave it in my hands:

Great on #1. I know what you're saying about #2, but if we let that aesthetic consideration rule the day, then why should TNO fighter or mage forget how to stealth or backstab? Seems even weirder to forget how to -hide- or stick someone in the back than forgetting how to fight someone face to face, ya know? Either way, you've got him inexplicably forgetting his other class benefits in at least some cases. My way, at least it's consistent between the 3 classes.

So, he's left that decision up to me, but also agreeing that what I'm suggesting would be better from a balance perspective. I'm still thinking that the arguments I laid out in post #17 are operative and winning the day (no one has responded to them yet) and I'm still leaning toward doing something like what I said in post #18 to resolve this issue.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 03:39 PM.

[Qwinn]

And in fact I -did- get a reply to my reply, lol. Two words and an emoticon.

Fair enough!

*grin* So, yeah. Let me put it this way. On this issue, his responses and guidance are pushing me toward doing it as a fix more than any other arguments put forth so far are pushing me away from it. I'll still hear arguments against it, though... we still have time to hash this one out if you guys want, scient's not going to be able to get to this one for a while, and I'd still like to do what additional research I can to point him to the most likely places in the engine that would be best to put this fix anyway, so.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 02:53 PM.

[BLAH]

Chris Avellone have spoken. Us mortals can only follow in his wake.
Seriously, he agreed on #1 and from balance standpoint - on #2 too, plus you'll be giving us means to reverse #2. So that's that.

edit: Second reply says it all. Clearly he doesn't have the time to review options and consider. Just go with it.

Edited by BLAH, 14 December 2008 - 03:02 PM.

[Qwinn]

plus you'll be giving us means to reverse #2. So that's that.

Yes, but I still reserve the right to make fun of people who use it in the readme Tweak

Qwinn

EDIT: (Guys... I'm kidding. Lighten up. Proper response is to make fun of me right back

Edited by Qwinn, 14 December 2008 - 03:38 PM.

[scient]

Well, #1 is toast. Unless Qwinn can find any issues that fix is all set to go. From my own testing it's pretty solid. You'll now use 1-10 range regardless of your current class (this is specific to TNO only). Combined with the fix so previously gained levels won't erroneously giving you +1 hp per level, hp progression should be more consistent with original intent. Can you smell that? It's bugs frying.

Edited by scient, 14 December 2008 - 07:54 PM.

[ghostdog]

I also agree with the proposed changes, but I think they must be both implemented. Having the hitpoint fix only would make mages too uber and let's face it the mage already seems to be the most "rewarding" class of the game. keep up the bug hunt guys!

If you'd like to hear more opinions on this matter I could make a post in rpgcodex that would point here. There are many pst fans there, but be prepared to face some angry-purist-maniacs.

[Qwinn]

I also agree with the proposed changes, but I think they must be both implemented. Having the hitpoint fix only would make mages too uber and let's face it the mage already seems to be the most "rewarding" class of the game.

This did not escape my notice. Really, you're absolutely right, and in fact I've thought that for that very reason, the THACO thing is more clearly a bug that needs fixing. The THACO issue already imbalances the classes greatly as I've described, and if you fix the Max HP bug it makes it even more imbalanced.

Explanation: It would make building the uber kensai mage route even easier... you could then spend your entire career as a mage (or thief) gaining full hit points, then use Vhailor to give you that 3-5 point THACO boost and extra half attack per round for most of the end game as I described earlier. Not that you couldn't abuse the Vhailor thing anyway... it's just more likely that someone going the kensai mage (or kensai thief) route would have also done his early levels as a fighter for the better hit points. With just the Max HP fix, they can do 15 levels as a mage with full hit points and then the Vhailor thing and get that great THACO and attack bonus without ever having sacrificed a single point of xp attainable by his mage class to get it, all in like 5 minutes.

(Even with both fixes, they can still abuse it to get the extra half attack per round... but that alone is a lot less imbalancing, isn't nearly as unbelievable, and can't really be helped anyway.)

So... yeah, you're right. I'm not going to release the Consistent HP fix without the THACO fix... and honestly, all things considered, it makes me less inclined to make the THACO part optional. The two really do kinda have to go together, otherwise the Consistent HP thing (which we -know- is a bug) actually winds up breaking class balance even further. The only way this all works together is with both fixes applied simultaneously.

So right now, I'm considering two options. One is to delay release until scient can do the THACO fix, which will probably take a week or so. The other is to release now without either fix, then put out a 3.1 version in a week or two that has both of the major fixes.

If I go with the latter option, then those people who really really object to this can download it in that two week meantime, and play a deliberately bugged version to their heart's content. But from 3.1 forward, my Fixpack will include both fixes permanently, and frankly I'm much less inclined to put out a tweak that would necessarily have to undo -both- the Consistent HP fix and the THACO fix.

If this means some people won't want to play with my Fixpack, well, alright. That's sad, but -increasing- class imbalance is not one of the reasons I'm doing any of this, and putting out tweaks that deliberately reintroduce known, confirmed bugs kinda massively violates the whole mission statement.

It's such a shame, really... I think if the Inconsistent HP bug had never happened in the first place, the class imbalance caused by the THACO bug would be so readily obvious that there'd be less resistance to the idea that the THACO thing is actually a bug as well, and would've been fixed much earlier on.

If you'd like to hear more opinions on this matter I could make a post in rpgcodex that would point here. There are many pst fans there, but be prepared to face some angry-purist-maniacs. wink.gif

Sure, please do. I already put up posts about it at Gamebanshee, Gamespot and Sorcerer's Place, hoping to get as much input as possible.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 15 December 2008 - 06:49 AM.

[Qwinn]

I should also note, for those who know and respect his opinion as I do, that SKARDAVNELNATE agrees with the THACO fix as well.

And his response is also a good reply to Chris Avellone's aesthetic objection... it's not that he's -forgetting- how to fight, it's that he's chosen to focus on something else at the moment (be it spells or stealth), and it is difficult to shift one's focus to a different way of doing rather complex things when you're deliberately concentrating on another complex way of doing them.

(I'll also add, due to TNO's strange makeup, that it's entirely plausible as an explanation that at any given moment, he's "in tune" with the subconscious memories of a specific past life that focused on one of the three classes.)

http://www.gamespot....ag=topics;title

Anyways, Tainted Barse's dialogue has a whole bunch of issues that need sorting, so I'll be doing that for a while this morning.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 15 December 2008 - 07:17 AM.

[ghostdog]

I've made a thread about the bugfixes in rpgcodex, I warned you

[Qwinn]

I responded. I await the rage

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

I think this post I just put over there explains the issue better and more succinctly than any post I have here, so let me copy it over.

I thought it was something actually important. I've never played Torment as a fighter (other then in the Mortuary) and have no idea why it is 'absolutely necessary'.

*sigh* Yes, you have, whether you wanted to or not. If you were even just a 5th level fighter by the time you got Mebbeth to train you, then your mage had combat capabilities that he shouldn't have had until level 15. It was impossible in this game -not- to be a fighter, of however many levels you have in the class, at all times. The only thing you wouldn't keep when you switched off it was using various weapon types, which made no real difference. Add to that that as a mage you'd have far better AC than your fighter ever could.

Look, the "absolutely necessary" part was in relation to the HP fix, which no one seems to be arguing against, which is in the manual, and which is confirmed to be a bug by Chris Avellone himself. That -should- be fixed. It's the way the game was meant to be.

A big reason you didn't find it necessary to have the hit points of a fighter in your other classes is because of the -other- bug, which made your mage and thief overpowered.

The only classes you've never played in this game are a pure rogue or a pure mage. Because as it stands, it's impossible to be one.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 15 December 2008 - 11:52 AM.

[Qwinn]

Okay, scient has checked in. We'll be delaying the two fixes for a while. I'll be releasing version 3.0 without the hp or thaco fixes pretty damn soon, mebbe even tonight.

Qwinn

[scient]

I should also add, that the THAC0 / hp progression will be backward compatible with saved games. There is no reason it will break them. It will only be that you're missing full hp gains for whatever levels you've already achieved if TNO wasn't a fighter.

[Qwinn]

Ok, that's awesome. One of the guys over there spotted this in the manual:

The Nameless One only gets experience in the class he is currently a member
of ? he switches classes by talking to people in the game. Furthermore, he cannot
access any of the other classes? abilities when he is specializing in one of the classes.

That's pretty much as conclusive as the hit point thing on designer intent. TNO can jump classes, but at any given point in time he is supposed to be a single-classer, not a bizarre partial-hybrid-multi-classer that lets a level 3 mage run around doing 3.5 attacks per round with a THACO of 5 and an AC 5 points better than what a 15th level fighter can get.

That seals it for both of them to me. We can certainly keep discussing it, but as far as my Fixpack goes, there's plenty of evidence to show that these are both definitely fixes and there's no sound basis to make them tweaks or optional. Both are fixes and will remain so.

Sorry to those who voted No, but I'm hoping at least some of you will have been convinced by the arguments made so far. Lots of the folks over at RPG Codex were also initially opposed but did eventually come around after hearing the reasoning behind it... the only holdout at this point is one guy saying "Fighters suck anyway, exploiting this bug is the only reason I ever played one" which is probably the third best argument I've heard for the change...

Qwinn