24 replies to this topic

[neostalker]

Just some thoughts. I don't know if the engine allows this, but here goes:

1. NPC characters do not share their inventory as freely. If they have original equipment they don't let you take it, and they also want a share of gold and items that goes strictly to them. Conflicts may occur between NPC-NPC and NPC-PC regarding who should have what.

I really miss that aspect when I'm playing Baldur's Gate. Dissent caused by greed.
This of course needs some manner of individual NPC economy. There will be a shared gold bag, but every NPC will also have a stash in his inventory with the gold he has earned.
You cannot use this stash except for things that are bought directly to the NPC, and these transactions must be approved by the NPC.
Viconia for example, wouldn't want to buy a Potion of Master Thievery. She wouldn't need that.

This makes the game focus more on the PC, and enhances the feeling of the NPC being independent people that just happen to team along.

2. NPC characters do not let you leave them in certain places, such as the Plane you travel to with the Planar Sphere, or The Underdark. They simply don't tolerate being left alone in such a dangerous and inaccessible place, and they will fight you if you insist on leaving them anyway. Or they may get out of there, show up later and get revenge.

3. If the gold and items gained are not enough, some NPC's will demand that you pay them in return for their continued services.
I always found it strange that Korgan, for example, was willing to risk his life for you even though he never got anything out of it.

So, do you think this is doable?

[Jarno Mikkola]

1.
2.
3.
So, do you think this is doable?

1. I really hated the thing in ToEE and in every other game the S&(//&%/&%#¤E%¤&% ever been + it's not doable.
2. Well, that might be doable as the NPCs have leaving dialog. But I wouldn't worry about that because: Do you really meat somebody in the Under dark you really wish to join your party(except few drow you are or they are going to betray...)? No.
3. Again if you wish for example expand Korgans leaving dialog to include his payment, you are welcomed to do so, but who can you fool to install that component is your business...

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 11 December 2008 - 10:03 AM.

[neostalker]

1. Personally, I like the function. But if it's not doable, that's another thing.
2. No, you don't meet any NPC's. But you may leave NPC's for various reasons (you think you're powerful enough and want more experience), or you just get tired of their banter.
3. Not going to respond to your negative attitude. People who would want such a component are those that prefer interesting interactions rather than having as much "virtual" gold on their character as possible.

Edited by neostalker, 11 December 2008 - 10:29 AM.

[berelinde]

Just about anything money-related is doable, at least in theory. There comes a point, however, when you're creating a lot of script for very little payoff.

You can add item checks to the various NPCs scripts, and to the game script, baldur.bcs, but players will hate you for it, since it creates a lot of lag. You can make NPCs demand payment at regular intervals, and destroy the money. About the only thing you really can't do and have your mod be even remotely compatible with other mods is add a line to player-initiated dialogue where the PC can ask to borrow money.

[neostalker]

Just about anything money-related is doable, at least in theory. There comes a point, however, when you're creating a lot of script for very little payoff.

You can add item checks to the various NPCs scripts, and to the game script, baldur.bcs, but players will hate you for it, since it creates a lot of lag. You can make NPCs demand payment at regular intervals, and destroy the money. About the only thing you really can't do and have your mod be even remotely compatible with other mods is add a line to player-initiated dialogue where the PC can ask to borrow money.

Thanks for your clarification!

Maybe NPC-specific shopping is a bit too advanced and CPU-demanding. And NPC-specific items maybe isn't necessary, as it's feasable that they just are content with getting money.

So, basically. Money demands from some NPC's, like Korgan and Edwin, and inability to leave NPC's in certain areas without conflicts, is fully doable?

I also think that NPC's should be more in-character when it comes to actions of the party. Not just act upon reputation. If you kill an innocent peasant, a good character should react instantly.

Edited by neostalker, 11 December 2008 - 11:36 AM.

[GeN1e]

Everything is doable. The question is, how much work it will take. Because IE is not adjusted to do what you've suggested.

[neostalker]

Everything is doable. The question is, how much work it will take. Because IE is not adjusted to do what you've suggested.

Don't know if you're referring to my first post or the last. If you mean the individual NPC gold and item-part, then I can see that it might be a bit too advanced.

But occasional money demands from certain NPC's, they refusing to part in isolated areas (like Underdark or other Planes), and more direct actions to reputation changes maybe is within the limits of what IE (and some dialogue/interjection modding) is capable of?

Edited by neostalker, 11 December 2008 - 12:57 PM.

[Icendoan]

Of course. Easily possible.

Having individual party members gold is possible, but would take one heck of a lot of testing and thinking of valid workarounds.

Icen

[GeN1e]

Don't know if you're referring to my first post or the last.

It was mostly related to the shopping, yes. Sometimes I read rather loosely

[neostalker]

Now that my revised plans turn out to be realistic, I might start soon with the mod.

Just want to know, do you think this is a good idea for a mod? Would you use it yourself if you ever did a re-run?
I will probably make it even if you think it sounds bad, because I love the idea, still interesting to hear your opinions.

Edited by neostalker, 11 December 2008 - 01:49 PM.

[Icendoan]

It isn't the mod I would play, personally. It doesn't really affect ME much, if you see what I mean. It doesn't add an amazing amount, and as I usually solo, I don't see the gain of me dragging a few NPCs behind me for it.

Icen

[neostalker]

It isn't the mod I would play, personally. It doesn't really affect ME much, if you see what I mean. It doesn't add an amazing amount, and as I usually solo, I don't see the gain of me dragging a few NPCs behind me for it.

Icen

I hear you. :-)

Well, at least I will have fun with such a mod.

[Jarno Mikkola]

why ask anyone whether it's a good idea or not?

Why not...

Now, if you Neostalker can make the NPCs to be more 'in character' then it could be good, as in if the Charname meets Edwin and then has Minsc all the way, I could see conflict coming even without Edwin in the party, especially then... so let's not concentrate on the negative side of the game mechanics, but on what this all can bring to us and then you'll have a good mod idea.

[theacefes]

With realism mods it is always difficult for me to say whether it is something I would play. It would be similar to ask if anyone is interested in an NPC "eat or die" mod or a "make sure you change your underwear everyday NPCs" mod. (Okay that was a bit of a stretch but you get the idea.)

[neostalker]

I, too, would not play it. It adds a bit of realism, certainly, but I'd end up feeling annoyed by it. A curious question, however: If you're going to make it anyway, for yourself if for no one else, why ask anyone whether it's a good idea or not? You obviously think it is, and worth the effort and work also.

Because I still think it's fun to have other peoples input.

why ask anyone whether it's a good idea or not?

Why not...

Now, if you Neostalker can make the NPCs to be more 'in character' then it could be good, as in if the Charname meets Edwin and then has Minsc all the way, I could see conflict coming even without Edwin in the party, especially then... so let's not concentrate on the negative side of the game mechanics, but on what this all can bring to us and then you'll have a good mod idea.

Something like that I had in mind. More realistic NPC behaviour, and of course it will be made individual for original NPC's, rather than some general rules.

With realism mods it is always difficult for me to say whether it is something I would play. It would be similar to ask if anyone is interested in an NPC "eat or die" mod or a "make sure you change your underwear everyday NPCs" mod. (Okay that was a bit of a stretch but you get the idea.)

Yeah. Except this doesn't add any new mechanic like eating or changing your underwear, but enhances the already existant NPC behaviour. But I hear ya.

Edited by neostalker, 12 December 2008 - 03:08 AM.

[Kulyok]

The thing is, different people believe in different viewpoints. Examples:

1) _I_ believe Jaheira is meant to wear full plate, full time, and if a new "Jaheira" insists on leather armor - it's character assassination. I'll be playing with a new character, character I don't much like.
2) I want to give Ring of Gaxx to Keldorn, but this new "Keldorn" insists it's an evil thingy he won't wear(or worse, he's got an "party member's AC check" embedded, he figures that Valygar's AC is worse than his, and starts recommending me to give the ring to Valygar). Is it Keldorn I know? No, ten times no.
3) If Imoen starts stealing my things, she is dead. Word.

So, what do we have in the end? A party of strangers, or a dead party. And besides, like many others who can't or do not want to buy a new computer, I'd rather not have the mod which will slow my game considerably.

[Thanatos.]

Agreed *stabs thread through the heart with a stake*

[SConrad]

*stabs thread through the heart with a stake*

No. Just because you disagree with an idea, it does not give you the right to be insulting by posting remarks as the one quoted. You're being downright rude to people who may like the idea and want to talk about it--not to mention the original poster, whom I believe you owe an apology.

Also, please stop making posts that aren't relevant or don't add anything new to the discussion. You seem to have quite the knack for it (and those are just examples from the past few days, excluding similar posts in the Circus). Considering that you've been told this before, I think it's time to start listening.

On topic, I think it would actually make sense if you had to pay certain NPCs--like Korgan--to stay in the party. Coding-wise, it would be quite easy as you'd only need to siphon money from the party (using DestroyGold() or something like it) with a timer; possibly with adding a dialogue that results with the NPC leaving in case the party doesn't have the required amount of gold. I'd play that mod/component, mainly for added realism but also for more challenging gameplay in the earlier chapters when funds could be low.

If you make it so the fee increases with the level of the NPC (which also would make sense--why wouldn't the NPC charge more the stronger he/she becomes?), it could also take away at least parts of the millions of gold pieces you amass towards the latter parts of the game. That was one of the parts I didn't like; walking around with that much money didn't feel right.

[neostalker]

Thanks for your constructive answer SConrad, glad you think it's a good idea for a mod.

I guess there are (generally speaking) two kinds of players.
Those that want a really powerful character and as few restrictions as possible, and those that want a more challenging and interesting gameplay.

Edited by neostalker, 13 December 2008 - 03:05 AM.